The Sixth Seal – The Cross of Calvary

During a recent discussion (here) it has come to light that many believe that they alone have the unique revelation given by the divine Spirit of the Living God concerning John’s work. I do not believe that, believing that we will only come to understand them as they passed. Yes, we look for the coming of the Lord, making ourselves ready, but we do not wait with bated breath for this or that to happen. Some years ago, before blogging, I devoted a considerable amount of personal time to the study of Revelation. This is only a small portion of this  – since it was introduced during a previous discussion. I will not lay the claim of divine inspiration, but I would like your thoughts.

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Revelation 6:12-17 NKJV)

The Kings of the Earth

Throughout the Old Testament, God refers to Satan as a king of the Earth. We see this in Daniel, Ezekiel, and it is carried over to the New Testament.

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:12 NKJV)

The angel tells that Daniel that he was delayed because he was fighting the King of Persia. Should we really assume that a mere mortal man could fight an angel with such strength that the angel would have need of calling in Michael? Instead, Gabriel has been fighting Satan. In other parts, Satan is called the Prince of the Power of the Air, and in others, the King of Tyre or Egypt or Babylon. If we apply the same logic here, then these mighty men of the earth what dread the day of the Lord could very well be Satan and his armies, whether of the spiritual or physical kind.

On the same token, they are also the religious leaders and the men of might, such as the centurion (Luke 23.47) which had laboured in some way to crucify Christ – who held kingdoms which Christ brought down. Remember, all power in heaven and earth was now given to Christ (Matthew 28.16-19).

Earthquake

Several times in scripture, Earthquakes are used for a variety of reasons; however, the most significant is to show the presence of the Lord. In this seal, which we hold to still be a-linear, the earthquake is used to show the presence of the Lord and to get people’s attention.

I see this passage, this seal, in concert with the perfection theory set forth in the seventh seal, this seal is represents the most famous of all earthquakes: the earthquake found in Matthew 27:51-54 and at His resurrection. If not, if this is not the meaning behind this passage, then the passage in Chapter 7 decreeing that the angels hurt no man, is either wrong or takes place before the sixth seal, which destroys the idea of a consecutive series between six and seven.

Remember, when a prophet sees the ‘Day of the Lord’, it is always given that it begins with these same signs. We know that there has always been One Day, but Two Advents, a beginning and an ending. The Day of the Lord began with Christ and will end with Christ.

At the opening of the sixth seal “the birth-throes of the Messianic time” appear, as depicted in the following passages:

The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls. (Joel 2:31-32 NKJV)

This is important in my own understanding of the Sixth Seal – Peter clearly identifies what had just happened with the prophecy of Joel (Acts 2.18; cf Joel 2.28). If this (Christ and the Gospel) was that (Joel’s prophecy) then when did it skip from verse 28 to verse 32?

Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust, From the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty. (Isaiah 2:10 NKJV)

And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree. (Isa 34:4 NASB)

Also the high places of Aven, the sin of Israel, will be destroyed; Thorn and thistle will grow on their altars; Then they will say to the mountains, “Cover us!” And to the hills, “Fall on us!” (Hos 10:8 NASB)

For thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. ‘I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the LORD of hosts. (Hag 2:6-7 NASB)

We know that the Desire (KJV) of all Nations is in fact Jesus Christ. This is why so many mythos that seem alike to the story of Christ have sprung up over the time of the Earth and yet are not. Through history, we see the story of Christ often imitated but never repeated.

Fear of the great day of God’s wrath:

“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.

But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.

“Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years. Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me,” says the LORD of hosts. For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. (Mal 3:1-6 NASB)

The wrath of His anointed:

Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! (Psa 2:12 NASB)

This seizes the whole world. 

While we are here, let us visit the phrase ‘The Day of the Lord’. Peter says that a day with God is as a thousand years and vice versa. Many take this literally, but I do not. Is not eternity defined by the absence of Time? If that is so, then the Day of the Lord can very well be the entire span of human history that will intersect itself at the appropriate time, such as the moment on Mt. Calvary and the Final Day of the Lord. The Old Testament prophets never said the second Day of the Lord, or for that matter, the first Day of the Lord, but saw it as one continuous Day.

Take the origin of what Christ spoke in the Synagogue:

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, (Isa 61:1-2 NASB)

Here, in Luke 4:18-19, Christ stops speaking, but the passage continues

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn:

Here, Isaiah sees the Day of the Lord as one Day, but we now know that it is a two-fold day. This is the sixth seal. What the sixth seal is not:

  • Armageddon
  • Rapture
  • 2nd Coming of Christ

Once again, it is the death of Christ on the cross.


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136 Replies to “The Sixth Seal – The Cross of Calvary”

  1. Hi P

    It is always good to see prophecy from more than one or even two points of view… No one knows for sure,but i agree with you that the 6th seal is not the rapture or the second coming of Christ…

    However, specifically the Day of Lord spoken of by Joel and the Apostle Peter, and the days of vengeance spoken of by Christ in Luke 21, may have taken place already… For there has never been or will ever be a more deserving people of God’s wrath and of his vengeance,than those which had the Lord of Glory,their promised Messiah with them,and put him to death,hanging him on a tree.

    The fact that Apostate Israel of that century and Rome were both responsible for the death of the Lord is one thing.However,Rome’s (the government not the RCC) severe persecution and slaughtering of Christians was a different matter.This was the Lord’s church,his very own…

    When the Apostle John opened the fifth seal,he saw the souls of them that were slain for the world of God.Who but Satan would have orchestrated and put into minds of the Roman Government to do such a thing?

    I do not believe that Jesus would wait more than 2ooo years (or in the future) to avenge his own… So i think that the battle of Armageddon may be a past event as well.A short work against Rome of that Century…Wasn’t the Apostle Paul be-headed for his testimony of Christ during Nero’s reign?

    Not to mention the way in which Nero killed Christians,burning them to light his yard,having them sown in animal skins to be torn apart by wild beasts,blaming them for the fires that destroyed most of Rome etc..

    What do you think of the possibility of these things?

  2. Polycarp-

    Your reasoning is hard to follow. If we read the sixth seal in context, we have just had the four horsemen ride forth from a sealed scroll that the Lamb which previously died opened, then at the fifth seal we have martyrs, then at the sixth seal we have cosmic signs and the nations trembling at the Day of the LORD and His wrath. They obviously see something, since they commment about the One on the throne. These cosmic signs act as a parallel to Matthew 24:29.

    The events of the Olivet Discourse were meant to tell when Christ would come at the end of the age. So when we read about these cosmic signs, we see just after that Christ is coming in power and great glory. The cosmic signs were clearly meant to be a time marker for the coming of Christ.

    So why is the Lamb seen as having already been slain when He takes the scroll out from Him who sits on the throne if His death was yet to be portrayed? There is no mention of the death of Christ at the sixth seal. The description which follows shows a great multitude washed by the blood of the Lamb, but the origin of these is clearly out of the Great Tribulation which Christ also prophesied as a future event in the Olivet Discourse.

    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

    -The Orange Mailman

  3. Hi P

    I just saw your comment this morning…I think what you said is definite worth exploring and i plan to study it…

    I re-read my own comment.I meant to say that when the Lamb/Lord opened fifth seal,the Apostle John saw the souls…Not the Apostle John opening of it…

    Something else tho..The white horse and it’s rider the opening of the first seal, Revelation 6:2,is different from the other three…In that the rider went out to conquer…I believe that this depicts the spread of the good news by the church,which was and is the Gospel of salvation… After the Lord ascended back to Heaven,he was glorified and given dominion and a Kingdom…He reigns from Heaven as head over his church,which he purchased with his own blood… Daniel7:13,14 Compare with Matthew 26:64,65…

  4. Man Alive! I did it again… When he opened “one” of the seals 6:2…The passage does not say that it was the first seal,although the opening of the second seal followed in verse three…

  5. Polycarp-

    Your reasoning seems to be something like this. **The vision is happening in heaven, so that means it is impossible to assign a chronological timing to anything.** While it is a heavenly vision, it corresponds in real time to what is occurring on the earth. Every seal has an effect on the earth, or on the people of the earth.

    I guess with your view, everything in Revelation is in eternity, therefore we can come with whatever predetermined ideas we have, cut and paste the texts to fit our idealogy, instead of letting the texts, the progression of the texts shape our theology and eschatology.

    I would briefly mention that God Himself inhabits all of time. The Lamb, Christ, The LORD, He has subjected Himself to time. He appeared in the OT to many in time, in succession, progressively revealing His covenant plan. As a man, He was conceived, He grew, He lived, He died, He ascended, He will come again at some point in time. That’s the mystery of the incarnation. God became a man. God became a time-being.

    Since you didn’t address anything else in my post, there’s not much more for me to write. I will reiterate, the cross is not mentioned whatsoever at the sixth seal. That’s pure eisogesis.

    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

    -The Orange Mailman

  6. If one reads carefully the vision John sees in the throne room, there are mysterys.

    This vision was seen around 95 AD. About 60 years previous to this time, Stephen looked into heaven, and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. There are many scriptures in the NT that say Jesus went to be at the right hand of God. Why then, did John not see Jesus there? Why was a search for one worthy to break the seals, completed and failed?

    I must be honest: I do claim divine inspiration, because the Holy Spirit spoke to me about this part of Revelation. I was bugged about John weeping, and finally, after bugging God about it for days, He answered, “It shows timing.” I studied this vision for days, even weeks, and could not see timing in it anywhere. Finally, after telling God that I could not see timing anywhere, He had mercy on me and helped. He told me to quite chapters 4 and 5, and go to chapter 12. So I spent days and weeks on chapter 12. The Holy Spirit gave me this outline: this chapter is God introducing the dragon to John. The Holy Spirit had me count the number of times the dragon or pronouns for him are used in this chapter. The answer? 32 times!!! But what about verses 1-5? The Holy Spirit sent me to this chapter, to learn about “History lessons.” These are the times that God showed John some event or events that were history to John. Verses 1-5 is God showing John that the dragon was right there at Jesus birth, ready to devour Him then. There is no great mystery here. Jesus came from the nation of Israel! There are 12 tribes of Israel. After the brief “history lesson” God begins to show John what the dragon will be doing during the 70th week. Again, no great mystery. Chapters 10 through 15 are all right at the midpoint of the 70th week in John’s narrative. Again, no need to rearrange them: they are given in God’s chronology. Chapter 12, verse six, shows us those in Judea fleeing the beast after seeing the abomination. Just one more proof that John is at the midpoint of the week here.

    But the Holy Spirit sent me to discover the “History lesson.” You see, I need that mindset to understand the vision! This vision of the throne room was another “History lesson!” God wanted to reveal the scroll to John, but had to go back in time to when Jesus rose from the dead, and then ascended to heaven. The moment He arrived in heaven, He took the scroll and started breaking the seals!

    You see, John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father, because He was seeing into the throne room of about 33 AD, probably just before Jesus died, or while He was in the grave. That is why Jesus was not at the Father’s right hand. That is why the search for one worthy failed: Jesus had not at that time became the “redeemer,” and was not yet qualified. So, just as the Holy Spirit said, this shows timing. All we have to do is read it carefully. John got to see the very moment that Jesus entered the throne room, after ascending to heaven – probably right after He told Mary not to hold onto Him.

    John is showing us that the timing of the first seal was about 33 AD.

    Lyle

  7. Polycarp,

    I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you do have some understanding of Scripture, so I have not spelled out everything.

    Acts 2:34
    For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    Acts 7:55
    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

    Acts 7:56
    And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Romans 8:34
    Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    Ephesians 1:20
    Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    Colossians 3:1
    If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

    Hebrews 1:3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

    Hebrews 8:1
    Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

    Hebrews 10:12
    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    Hebrews 12:2
    Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    1 Peter 3:22
    Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    We really only needed one, but God has given us many. You may want to argue that this does not mean that Jesus is there physially but with the authority of that position. Well, Stephen saw Him there. Many verses tell us that that is where He went to be. If you do not believe me, YOU come up with a reason why John did not see him there in 95 AD. Next, you will have to explain why the search for one worthy ended in failure. And why the Holy Spirit was there when Jesus said He would send Him down.

    Why should we not understand these scriptures, as well as any others? All I can say is, wait until these things happen, and you will see that I did hear from the Holy Spirit. And you are right. No one could talk Paul out of his gospel, that he received by direct revelation. I feel the same way. Of course I did not receive help on every verse, so I have to do my best on those verses. As I said, I am not dogmatic on verses that He did not speak to me about.

    I counted the pronouns in several translations. The exact number is not important: what is important is that this chapter is God introducing John to the dragon. That is the main theme. And the main timeframe is the midpoint of the week: just after the abomination.

    “You forget that in the beginning was the Logos, the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. Is Christ God?”

    The very meaning of “christ” is the anointing one and the anointing itself or Himself. The Holy Spirit IS the anointing. Yes, the Holy Spirit is God. Yes, Jesus is God. Yes, God the father on the throne is God. The Lamb of God, as Jesus, is God. While Jesus walked the earth, the spirit inside of Him was the second person of the trinity, and the “redeemer” of Isaiah 44:6. Just as my spirit man is the real me, the Spirit isside of Jesus was the real Him, and that Spirit was God – the same God that spoke to Moses out of the burning bush, and the same God that spoke with Abraham.

    Therefore, the wrath of the Lamb IS the wrath of God, and the wrath of God IS the wrath of the lamb. They are one God, with three parts, just as we are one human with three parts.

    Yes, I did include some of the OT prophecies in my study, but I am not as versed in them as I am in Revelation.

    Do you think it is impossible that Jesus ascended only once? Where was He inbetween the times He appeared? Do you think he was wasting time on the earth? I believe He ascended right after He spoke with Mary, and then came back each time He appeared, until the 40 days was up. At that time, He stayed in heaven. We don’t have a lot of scripture on this, so one cannot be dogmatic. But what did Jesus mean then, when He spoke to Mary?

    Lyle

  8. Polycarp,

    We are forgetting one thing: God is omnipresent! Again we are forced into conjecture, for there is no scripture. Right now, as we speak, can Jesus, the second part of the triune Godhead, be several places at once? Or is the omnipresense of God only through the Holy Spirit who IS everywhere at once? Since they are one, if the Holy Spirit is everywhere at once, and He is, then can we say that Jesus is also, and God the Father is also? I am not sure. It seems from scripture that God the father always stays on the throne, and the Holy Spirit is everywhere, but particularly manifesting on earth. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, right where Stephen saw Him.

    Therefore, it is possible that Jesus WAS at the right hand of the father while at the same time was in the upper room with the disciples.

    I have no answers for this.

    How am I close to making the Incarnation of no effect and the Son of God an angel?

    Lyle

  9. Hi P

    I took the time to re-read Zechariah and i do see parallels to the book of Revelation…

    However,Revelation 5 speaks of Jesus entering the throne room in Heaven,most likely at his ascension (Daniel 7:13 Act 1:9).The throne room is assembled like a courtroom. God the Father is seated on the throne (judge’s chair) and the elders are like observers,who sit in any courtroom…

    This is what the Apostle Johns sees in the vision,Jesus/the lamb is handed the Scroll,which can be seen as a letter of divorcement and or judgment against the unfaithful wife,Israel.This divorce and judgment was against her (Israel) not the whole world…

    I did not say that Christ was the rider on the white horse,i said that i believed that it depicted the spread of the Gospel…

    I think that everyone can agree that after Pentecost,the Gospel message (good news) spread across the known world of that time,like wild fire…

    Also God gave Israel a space of 40 years to repent of sin… From the preaching of John the baptist-to Jesus’ ministry,which lasted approximately three and a half years-to the preaching of the Gospel everywhere in the known world,that started with the devout Jews at Penetecost,the church (the Israel of God) …

    Moreover,Jesus spoke of the destruction of “that” Temple that was standing in his day (not a future temple).The destruction of Jerusalem and ultimately of the temple lasted for three and a half years…

    The war between the Roman armies and Israel and the length of Jesus’ ministry equals 7 years.Perhaps this was the final week (7 years) or the 70th week of Daniel.The gap in time from the birth of Jesus to the end of his ministry is 33 years…

    According to an Historian the war between the Roman armies and Israel did last for 42 months… Both Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 7:14 speak of ‘ great tribulation’… Not “The” Great or an unprecedented world-wide tribulation.

    When Jesus said that THIS generation shall not pass until all is fulfilled.How could he be speaking of a yet future generation? The divorce of the unfaithful wife (Israel) was immediate…

    The judgment to or of her took place later.This divorce of (the Harlot) unfaithful wife,who along with Rome put the Lord to death,was indeed justified… So she (Israel) at the opening of the first seal and reading of the verdicts (so to speak) was no longer the wife of YHWH…

    Also Israel of that same generation,conspired with Rome (the kings of the Earth) to persecute the bride of Christ (his church)… So both she and Rome of “that” generation received the Lord’s judgment speedily…

    There cannot be a future judgment and punishment of a past generation…The blood Abel to Zechariah was laid upon Israel of that specific generation,not a future one,and did take place between Ad 67-70…Those of that generation like all of Mankind thru-out history will be resurrected at the last day,to face the final judgment…

    As you have said and it is true,that Jesus’ death for sinners was ordained by God.Nevertheless,the Apostle Peter speaking to those of “that generation” says this Acts 2:22,23

    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Like you P… I believe that the literal and bodily return of Christ,the resurrection of the just and the unjust,the consummation (New Heavens and New earth) and the final judgment of the just and the unjust (at the same time) is yet future…

    Like you (i think) i do not believe that the scriptures teach a future Earthly Millennial reign of Christ.The Lord reigns from Heaven now,over his church.

    The scriptures teach that when the last enemy is destroyed (which is death) takes place at the resurrection,at the last day… See 1 Cor 15:22-54 John 5:28,29 John 6:40,44 11:23-25 Acts 24:15 Isaiah 25:8…Then Jesus will deliver up the Kingdom (his church) to the Father.

    Finally P.God’s wrath was directed and already poured out on Israel of that generation… So i do not see that a future ” Great” world-wide tribulation is taught in scripture… Will there be a future unprecedented ” falling away ” or Apostasy of the church,which would indeed bring about tribulation for the faithful in Christ?

    Perhaps 2 Thessalonians 2 does speak of such an event that is yet Future: Or perhaps is speaks of a PAST rebellion or political apostasy involving Rome and or Israel that has already taken place in the first century…

    P not every “coming” in the NT scriptures speaks of his literal and bodily return of Christ…

    I thought that this subject or the introduction of this topic,was relevant to your oringinal Post.I hope that you will not think that i have not gone beyond…

  10. Polycarp,

    I want to comment on something here you wrote, before I found you.

    “The Kings of the Earth

    Throughout the Old Testament, God refers to Satan as a king of the Earth. We see this in Daniel, Ezekiel, and it is carried over to the New Testament.”

    I don’t believe this is at all what John or the Holy Spirit had in mind here. This verse was speaking of men of all walks of life:

    John writes: “And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!””

    There has never been an earthquake like this one: It will bring the “sudden destruction” that Paul mentioned. It will shake every mountain range in the world, to the extent that they will be moved out of their place. This is a mighty shaking!! It seems that people recognize it is the Lord. However, it also seems that the people that say this must have some knowledge of the Lamb and the wrath of the Lamb.

    “I see this passage, this seal, in concert with the perfection theory set forth in the seventh seal, this seal is represents the most famous of all earthquakes: the earthquake found in Matthew 27:51-54 and at His resurrection.”

    Sorry, Polycarp, but the context will not allow that interpretation.

    Rev. 5:2-6 – John saw the very moment that Jesus asecended into heaven, after having risen from the dead.

    Rev 5:7 John saw that the very first thing Jesus after His ascension into the throne room, was go and take the scroll from the Father.

    Rev 6:1 John saw Jesus break the first seal. From the context then, all human reasoning aside, this first seal had to have been broken about 33 AD. It is not, as so many imagine, still in our future. It would be very difficult to find thousands of years between any of these verses. There is simply no hint of extended time: Jesus gets the scroll as soon as He arrives in the throne room, as if it is the most important thing He can do. In fact, from the search to find one worthy, we can see that it was extremely important. If the seals remain unbroken, Satan remains the God of this planet. The breaking of the seals opens the way for the trumpets, then the vials, and then the return of Christ to the earth.

    Rev 6:2-7 John sees Jesus break one seal after another. There is not one word to give us ANY hint of extended time here.

    Rev 9:9 JOhn sees Jesus break the fifth seal, and finally, we see words that indicate an extended period of time, before the next seal can be broken: “it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.” This indicates to us that there will be a waiting period until the full number of church age martyrs is complete. People are still dying for their testimony today, so we are still waiting. At the rapture of the church, that wait will be over.

    “…the earthquake found in Matthew 27:51-54 and at His resurrection. If not, if this is not the meaning behind this passage, then the passage in Chapter 7 decreeing that the angels hurt no man, is either wrong or takes place before the sixth seal, which destroys the idea of a consecutive series between six and seven.”

    If we just read it in the same order that John wrote, there is no conflict or no need to rearrange anything. The resurrection of the long dead, causes the tremendous earthquake and “sudden destruction” Paul mentions. After the rapture, there will be signs in the sun and moon. Polycarp, you did well to tie in Isaiah 2 here, for this 6th seal is the final fulfilment of the Isa. 2 prophecy. Same with the Joel 2 prophecy.

    However, both of these prophecies tell us that this event, the 6th seal, is the final marked that the day of the Lord is about to start!! Finally, the 7th seal is the offical “marker” in heaven, that the day of the Lord has begun on earth. It is time of the trumpet judgments of God. There is then, no conflict with the words of the 7th seal: it fits perfectly in chronological order. There can be no doubt then, that the Day of the Lord will start immediately AFTER the 6th seal: NOT when Christ died, NOT when Christ rose from the dead. Context is critical. We must understand the context of these writings. Then, and only then, will we understand the timing. The first five seals are history to us now. We are waiting on the 6th.

    Please note carefully the words: “The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.” Therefore the day of the MUST start AFTER this 6th seal. It is written and cannot be broken. The 7th seal is the “marker.” (Not my word but the words of the Holy Spirit to me.)

    It is not only the earthquake that shakes the world to the core: it is the dissappearance of untold millions of people from around the world! It is the empty graves! The world will be left in a daze – which will be the opportunity the beast will use to rise to power.

    Lyle

  11. Polycarp-

    I apologize if you took one of my comments as an insult. There was no insult meant there. I was only interacting with your approach to Revelation 6, not you as a person.

    Your response to me indicates that you are conceding temporal time in certain passages. But it is a subjective approach. Whichever you feel is temporal you would place in one category, whichever you feel is eternal you place in another category.

    My problem is not with the way John wrote, but with an approach to scripture which allows someone to interpret it however they choose with no proof in the text itself. When challenged that your view is not in the text, you cite “prophetic language”. I wonder what you would do if you challenged someone else on their view insisting that their views are not even remotely mentioned in a certain passage, only to have them say it’s “prophetic language”.

    I’ve invited you in the past to view certain posts on my blog for interaction. I don’t know if you ever got around to that. So I’m not sure if you are really interested in reading about my views.

    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

    -The Orange Mailman

  12. Polycarp

    YOu wrote

    Lyle: “Rev. 5:2-6 – John saw the very moment that Jesus asecended into heaven, after having risen from the dead.”

    That is your own context, which you admit you do not have Scripture for. Let’s stick to Scripture.

    Polycarp, that is certainly not my own context. It is exactly what the Holy Spirit had in mind, when He caused John to write. If you disagree with this, then you must come up with what John really meant, when he said;

    2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
    4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read[a] the scroll, or to look at it.

    Polycarp, first you must explain why a search which seemed to be conducted in 95 AD when John saw it, ended in failure. Let’s look ahead and see why Jesus was later found worthy:

    ““ You are worthy to take the scroll,
    And to open its seals;
    For You were slain,
    And have redeemed us to God by Your blood…”

    We read that Jesus became worthy because he was slain, and was the redeemer of mankind. Therefore, Polycarp, you must explain why in a vision seen in 95 AD, Jesus was NOT found. Please read again, “because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll.” The truth is, No one was found worthy because at this point in time Jesus was still on the earth, and had not yet become the redeemer: He had not yet risen from the dead.

    Next, Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of the father many years previous to this. I know, your idea is that all the verses did not mean physically beside the father, but with authority. Yet, Stephen SAW Him there. So please explain why Jesus was not in the throne room. The truth is, Jesus was not in the throne room, because He was on the earth. There was a period of about 33 years when the second person of the Godhead was not in the throne room, but on the earth.

    Please note, this verse:

    “It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.”

    Now compare,

    5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices.[c] Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the[d] seven Spirits of God.

    Why was the Holy Spirit there in the throne room? The truth is, for the same reason that Jesus was not there.

    Now read carefully:

    4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read[a] the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose[b] its seven seals.”
    6 And I looked, and behold,[c] in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

    The first think we see here is that JOhn wept much. How long is much? We don’t know. All we know is it is more than a little. It was an extended period of time. He was weeping becuase the search had finished and no man was found.

    After He had wept much, (Hours? Days?) some one told Him that someone had been found. (Since you don’t believe my idea here, you might explain why God even included this about John weeping.)

    As soon as John was told, a new person appeared in the throne room! He was not there before! Of course not, because He was still in the grave! But how He had ascended and John saw the moment that He appeared. AGain, Polycarp, if you cannot believe this, YOU explain these verses in depth! First no man was found, and certainly no man was there, and suddenly, a man WAS found, and a man suddenly appeared in the throne room, looking as if He had just been slain. If this is not telling us that John saw the very moment that Jesus arrived in the throne room then you explain it.

    Therefore, what I have said was not my idea at all. It was the Holy Spirit telling me what HE meant when He caused John to write.

    Lyle

  13. Polycarp wrote,

    “Yet, you achieve this by human reasoning. In my own understanding, the seals were broken when the Plan of Consummation was required, in the Garden at the Fall. The adversary was thrown down after the war in heaven, when he brought the effects of sin upon the Creation. As far as Time goes – there is no Time in Eternity. Eternity, by definition is without Time. So, no, there need not be any hint of ‘extended time.’ Remember, what you apply in one part of Scripture, you should apply in another. Look at your use of the 70the week. Already, it has taken 2000 years, in your understanding to go from the 69th week to the 70th week. Yet, you deny that ability to Eternity?”

    Polycarp, we must go my the context, not by any ideas we come up with. What IS the context of the seals? It was the vision John saw of the throne room. A vision where no man was found worthy, and where Jesus was not there – and suddenly appeared. Did a “redeemer” suddenly appear in the throne room, back in the garden? Of course not! He was promised then, but did not show up in the throne room for thousands of years. Polycarp, you cannot ignore this context!! There most certainly IS time in the book of Revelation!! Elements of time are mentioned over and over again.

    I mentioned “extended time” because so many people beleive the seals are in the 70th week. I know the first five were broken about 33 AD. There is a LONG period of time between 33 AD and a time future to us today. One cannot find 2000 years of time between any of the seals until we get to the fifth seal. Speaking of the fifth, can you see that it must have started about 33 AD, for James and Stephen were the first two in that seal. Can you see that that seal covers the entire church age? How then can you be so far off on the first seal?

    Polycarp, the first seal is the church going forth to make disciples of all nations. You can believe there has been conquering along the way! The next three seals are the devil trying to stop the church. All of these are church age events. If you find the key that shows one rider rides alone, it helps prove this point.

    There is no conflict from the 69th week to the 70th week. God turned from the Jews, and their timetable, to the Gentiles. You might say the Jews are in an extended “intermission.” But as soon as the rapture takes place, the 70th week will begin. God will turn back to the Jews. It is called “Jacob’s trouble” for a reason. How long did Jacob have to work for His wife? And then how long for His second wife?

    Lyle

  14. Polycarp wrote,

    “Lyle, you are mistakenly united the ’sudden destruction’ of Paul with the Sixth Seal. ”

    Please, by all means, you tell us what the sudden destruction is!”

    Lyle

  15. Polycarp wrote,

    “Why do you assume that the Lord is speaking to Christian martyrs? Could He not be speaking to the Jewish Prophets, saying wait until the Gentiles come in? Yes, people are still dying, and people are still being sealed into the Body of Christ. Yet, the earth quake (the Cross) has happened, the 6th Seal, and we are now only waiting for the Trumpets.”

    Let’s read it.

    9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

    You have a point: when this is lifted out of the context, it does not specify what testimony. However, the context ties it to the New Convenant and church age.

    Lyle

  16. Polycarp wrote,

    “Joel 2, as Peter said, had been fulfilled – the Cross. And so has Isaiah 2 – when the Church (God’s Mountain) was established on the Day of Pentecost.”

    Peter was not as well verses in the scriptures as Jesus was. Jesus know when to stop quoting an Old testmant passage. (See Luke 4). Peter did not know.

    ” 28 “ And it shall come to pass afterward
    That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
    Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    Your old men shall dream dreams,
    Your young men shall see visions.
    29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
    30 “ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
    Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
    And the moon into blood,
    Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

    Verse 28 and 29 did indeed fit the day of Pentecost, but verse 30 and 31 is still ahead of us. Please note the next verses:

    Joel 3
    1 “For behold, in those days and at that time,
    When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
    2 I will also gather all nations,
    And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
    And I will enter into judgment with them there

    This is speaking of the battle or Armegeddon. It is still in our future.

    Lyle

  17. Polycarp-

    Their are time markers in what John sees. For instance, when he sees that the Lamb had prevailed to take the scroll, this is after the cross. The redemption is spoken of as something already accomplished whereas just before that there was no one found worthy to take the scroll. So why would John see that the Lamb had been slain, that He had prevailed, that the redemption had occurred, when the cross was something yet future, say at the sixth seal?

    Instead, the sixth seal is a harbinger to the physical, bodily return of the LORD Jesus in power and glory as prophesied of in the Olivet Discourse. The sixth seal is a direct parallel with Matthew 24:29-31. The time markers here show that we are AFTER the great tribulation, but just before the Day of the LORD, which is the Day of His wrath.

    I hold to the traditional view handed down by the church fathers for the date of Revelation. It was written after the 70AD destruction. I have recently blogged on why I feel Revelation contains internal evidence that it could NOT have been written before 70AD. While your idea does not seem to be Preterist, it is Historicist which shares some things in common with Preterism. The things which would shortly come to pass would all be associated with the coming of the LORD Jesus in power and glory. The Lamb alone will open the scroll at some future point in time.

    Prophetic language is not vague and incomplete as some believe. Prophetic language simply proclaims Christ, usually beforehand. Sometimes imagery or symbolism is used, but that imagery is usually explained. Symbols are also interpreted in the text and not left up to the imagination. For instance, horns, heads, stars, and candlesticks, all have meanings which are given in the book of Revelation. So when we come to a passage like the sixth seal, where are the symbols which scripture interprets? Instead, it is a passage which has parallels in scripture, such as Isaiah 2 and the Olivet Discourse which help us to understand the passage.

    Again, the cross is not there as it was accomplished before the Lamb took the scroll out of the hand of the One which sits on the throne.

    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

    -The Orange Mailman

  18. Polycarp wrote,

    “Mine is simple. The seals start when the adversary is thrown to earth. The destruction that he brings (2, 3, 4th seal) follows him. Rebellion against God leads to martyrs. God tells the prophets to wait. The 6th seal happens”

    OK, does this little scenario fit the context of the book?

    Rev 1:1
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.

    Satan was cast out of heaven, long before Adam was created.

    Rev 12 tells us that Satan will be cast down to earth, right after the midpoint of the week (right after the fleeing of the abomination). So which casting down are you speaking of?

    The very first verse sets the context of the book: John will be writing about events that will take place after 95 AD when John saw the vision.

    7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.

    It will be about events surrounding Jesus second coming. It is pointed towards those that pierced Him.

    19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

    John will be writing of things He has seen, about things that are (in 95 AD) and things that will be future to then. He is to write first to the seven churches in Asia. Note: History tells us that these 7 churches were Jewish churches – every one of them. They all disappeared.

    4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

    Now John will be shows things that must take place in the future, from 95 AD. Does your scenerio come after 95 AD? (Please note, this sentence does not preclude God from showing John a few things in the past. God did, indeed, show John of future events.

    We have not even started the 70th week of Daniel, or the time of “Jacob’s trouble.” John tells us that Satan is cast down from the heavens, at the midpoint of the week. It should be clear to any reader, that the events that follow Satan being cast down, have not happened yet. They are future to us. How can we be at the midpoint, when we have not yet begun? When did the trumpets take place? Did we miss 1/3 of the oceans to blood?

    Coop

  19. Polycarp wrote,

    Lyle – you have said enough when you said that about Peter.

    Polycarp, we are told to “rightly divide” the word of truth. It IS truth: Peter really did say it. It was transcribed exactly as He said it.

    But so were the many chapters of Job. And we find at the end of the book, that they were all wrong!!! They are there, and written accurately, but not truth.

    Of course what Peter said was truth too, but not all of it came to pass at that moment in time. When Jesus quoted from Isa 61, He quit with: the first line here:

    2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
    And the day of vengeance of our God;

    Since He then said that it had just been fufilled, He could NOT have read the second line. We have not yet gotten to the “day” of vengence or our God. John outlines that day for us, in much of Revelation.

    Lyle

  20. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure (the temple of God), and the altar, and them that worship therein… But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation 11:1-3

    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the (temple of God), showing himself that he is God. 2Thessalonians 2:4

    I do not know why these passages above say the TEMPLE OF GOD… It was “their house” Jesus said it would be left onto them desolate,before the writing of 2 Thessalonians 2 and the book of Revelation… Nevertheless do these passages speak of the temple that stood until AD70?

    Those who would say that it speaks of a Millennial temple would have us believe that the Lord Jesus and his glorified Saints would be surrounded and be under siege for 42 months or three and a half years by gentile armies… Is this really possible?

    Those who say that it speaks of a future rebuilt temple,do they really believe that any re-built temple anywhere in the world would be called the temple of God? How?

    Many believe that Revelation was written just before the reign of Nero ended in suicide. Somewhere between 65-67 AD…Nero was the 6th emperor of Rome.The next emperor Galba who reigned for only 6 months…Anyone can look back and count the number of emperors who were before Nero…There were 5!

    And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.Revelation 17:9,10

    No one knows why in 2Thessalonians 2:4 the temple of God is mention

  21. There is no question that there are many in Israel that want to build a temple. All they need is permission. It is my belief that the beast gives them that permission. There can be little doubt that there will be a new temple in Jerusalem, during the reign of the beast.

    Lyle

  22. “And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.Revelation 17:9,10”

    One cannot really attempt to understand these seven kings, and leave Daniel chapter 2 and chapter 7 out of the picture. while chapter 13 was more about the beast himself, chapter 17 is more about the kingdom of the beast. Much of His kingdom will be in the same land areas as were Babylon, Then the Grecian empire, and finally, the Roman Empire. Of these last two, specifically those areas that surround Israel. Antiochus Ephipanes was part of the Grecian empire, and was a type of the beast. I think what Daniel and Revelation are telling us here is that the beast will rise from the religion of Islam and from one of the nations north of Israel; Syria perhaps? He will defeat most of the Islam nations surrounding Israel, until Israel is surrounded my his empire. I think there can be little doubt that Antiochus Epiphanes would be one of the kings that have fallen. Hitler could well be the one coming but remaining only a short while. The beast, however, will be the eighth.

    Lyle

  23. One last thing…Does anyone overlook that fact that the woman in Revelation 11:4 has on the garments of a Levitcal Preist? Looks like to me that Harlot/Whore has been identified… So has Babylon the Great…How many days did that Temple burn in Ad70?

    What is written on the Harlot’s forehead should have said “Holiness onto the Lord” but it does not…

  24. Sorry i mean to say that the Woman in Revelation 17:4- who is riding the beast-is dressed like a Levitical Preist…She ( the unfaithful wife) even has a golden cup in her hands….

  25. Ok P

    But i will be leaving for work at 5:30… So i will have to get back with you all tomorrow then…

  26. Btw P,Can we talk about Revelation chapter 18 tomorrow? The judgment of the Harlot and the great city Jerusalem or (Babylon) cannot be over-looked from an Orthodox Preterists point of view…

  27. P i need to say this…I have read much of what Josephus and others have written about the three and a half year-(42 month) Spring Ad67 to summer or early fall Ad-70 siege/war and destruction of Jerusalem.

    Including the day that the temple was destroyed…So i do not make light of these things…Many people died horrible deaths…This is indeed heart wrenching to orthodox Preterists as well as orthodox futurists and those in between,we are all Christians…

  28. I know this is a very novel idea, but why can’t we just believe what John said? He told us who the “woman” was.

    Revelation 17:18
    And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    If we believe John, then we know that the woman represents a “great city.” I wonder: Has John mentioned a “great city” elsewhere in his book? How amazing! He has!

    Revelation 11:8
    And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    Can there be any doubt that the great harlet, the woman, is speaking of the city of Jerusalem? Many people find this hard to believe. They just do not understand that the greatest deception put upon the people of the world, will soon come from the city of Jerusalem, as the beast and false prophet successfully convince the world that they have the truth about God.

    Lyle

  29. Polycarp-

    That link is as follows.

    http://theorangemailman.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!FD6CC4005A27EADA!815.entry

    There was a question above about why the temple in Revelation 11 is referred to as the temple of God. I view this as a rebuilt temple which will be given over to be trampled down by the Gentile nations for a 3 1/2 year period, also known as the great tribulation. How could this be called the temple of God? Jesus called Herod’s temple “My Father’s House”. How would you explain that?

    Most would have some type of dispensational explanation. For instance, before Pentecost, we were in another dispensation. Perhaps the dispensation of Israel, or the Old Covenant, or some explantion like that. It doesn’t change the fact that Jesus referred to that temple as “My Father’s House” and used scripture to prove that it was a house of prayer for all nations.

    I realize that doesn’t completely explain why this future temple will be called the temple of God. I don’t want to dominate this space with an extremely long commment, but just to challenge the status quo view.

    Polycarp, I notice you use the phrase, there is no time in eternity. How do you know that? I used to read Halden’s blog for a while titled Inhabitatio Dei. He had some good points about God inhabiting all of eternity and time, not being outside of time as sometimes theologians will say. Since the incarnation has forever bound God as a man in the person of Christ, we know that Christ is now a being that experiences time as we do, but has not thrown of His deity in any way. So the throne room of God can be expressed in temporal terms without being temporary. Chronology can be expressed there. Are angels eternal beings outside of time, or are they living through time as we are?

    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

    -The Orange Mailman

  30. Polycarp, and others,

    It seems no one has beleived one thing I have written, so I think this will be my last post here – unless anyone cares.

    Lyle

  31. Lyle, you have not proven your case. You cannot simply show up, say that the Spirit has told you these things, and have people believe you. I think it is interesting to hear others views than the tripe that has been handed down by the Left Behind crowd.

  32. P. the Great city (Babylon) is Jerusalem and the woman represents the Levitical Preisthood or perhaps the Pharisee’s… It was Rome who burned the Great city and the Temple…

    P did you re-read Revelation 17 and 18? Both chapters make it crystal clear who the woman and the city WAS…

  33. Hi P Hi Lyle

    I know that the majority opinion is that Revelation was written later than AD70.However,the evidence that it was written during the reign of Nero and before the destruction of the temple,is in the book itself…

    Those seven churches existed at that time.The mention of measuring the temple in Revelation 11 and the Gentile armies trodden under-foot the holy place (land) did happen from 67-70 AD…Luke 21:24.The times of the Gentiles refer to the 42 months or three and a half years.

    The five fallen kings,one is reigning (Nero) he was the 6th Emperor of Rome.. and the seventh is yet to come, (Galba)… His reign was indeed short.It lasted for 6 months. Revelation 17:10… I think that much of the language that the Apostle John uses is more CODE than allegory…

    Remember he was in exile on the Island of Patmos for his Testimony of Christ.and was in their companion or fellow brother in tribulation.

    Most important of all,is that Daniel 9:27 states that the desolation(destruction) of that temple would be complete and final even until the consummation (New Heavens and New Earth)… So who can re-build what God has declared in his word by Daniel,would not be re-built.

    There is no generation past or future that can put the prophets and Apostles to death…All blood was laid on that “Generation” from Abel to Zechariah.The Lord Jesus was put to death by those of that Generation…God gave them nearly 40 years after the Lord ascension back to Heaven to repent and they did not…

    To answer your question if the book was written in 95 Ad it still speaks of a past events.At least until chapter 20…

    The coming again of Christ,the resurrection,the final judgment and the consummation is YET future…This is what all Christian believe,these final things do not belong to the interpretation of orthodox Preterists or futurists…They are the plain words of God…

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