Speaking in Tongues: Who is right?

Dr. Jim West has irritated a bunch of pentecostals. The good doctor commented on an article in which the ‘revival’ of speaking in tongues about the Anglicans.

And, by the way, the ‘Gift of Tongues’ is one of those temporary, ‘bridge’ gifts granted by the Spirit until the establishment of the Church as institution and the ascension of the New Testament documents to the status of ’scripture’.  Once those two events took place, such ’sign gifts’ (like tongues and healings and the like) became unnecessary.  Once one has Scripture, one no longer needs ’signs’

Nick Norelli responds in his usually eloquent manner with a post entitled Verbal Diarrhea:

Jim’s post was fine for the most part but apparently he had a bout of verbal diarrhea and just couldn’t stop himself from typing that last paragraph, a paragraph that one might expect from the likes of a dilettante like Jessica Simpson but certainly not one who possesses the ability to actually engage in exegesis.  I thought perhaps I’d see this posted in the ‘humor’ or ’sarcasm’ category but sadly it’s only marked ‘biblical studies’ and ’theology.’  I welcome any defense of this indefensible position that Jim might care to offer.

It is evident that Dr. West is a cessionist – I believe he is a Baptist -while Nick is somewhere between Catholic and Charismatic Pentecostal (according to Nick) and Book Iconist, I think.

I of course, have my own opinions.

For this reason does the apostle declare, “We speak wisdom among them that are perfect,” terming those persons “perfect” who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual.

Further, it seems that Justin identified at least the remains of the prophetical gift, which we can stretch to mean speaking in tongues,

The prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you should understand that the gifts formerly among your nation (Israel) have been transferred to us. (1.240)

Further, Tertullian defended tongues during his Montantist days. We know from history that speaking in tongues did not suddenly cease at the close of the canon, there is plenty in the works of the Apologists to show that ‘signs’ did not cease. (There is an equal amount, however, to suggest that too many people understood these ‘signs’ to indicate that any person who performed them was a member of the Church.)

Did they cease after the Apostolic Era?

And do the Pentecostals have the right idea?

No, I do not think they ceased, and nor do I think that many Pentecostal/Charismatics have the right idea. Most charismatics that I have met would deem it a good service if everyone spoke in tongues for the 2 hours of Sunday morning service. Personally, I have not read one instance in the bible where teaching, doctrine, and brotherly love was every sacrificed for ecstatic worshiping.

That is my .347 cents

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135 Replies to “Speaking in Tongues: Who is right?”

  1. I think you have to look at what the Charismatic Movement has given us. It’s a movement based, not on fixed Scripture, but on emotional, personal experience. Church worship services then become 2 hours of loud personal expression — more like a high school pep-rally than a worship service honoring the Creator.
    Also, there’s an emphasis on wealth – the prosperity, “name it & claim it” advocates. Your status with Christ is based on the amount in your bank account.
    Charismatics are responsible for the emphasis on mysticism over reason. The chief spokesman/women for the Charismatic Movement are constantly seeing visions, angels, demons — in some cases Paul and Jesus Himself. Come on!
    The whole Charismatic movement is apostasy of the worst kind — a bit of Truth mixed with poisonous error.

  2. The irony here is that Charismatics base their beliefs about speaking in tongues on experience AND Scripture (more specifically an experience that’s actually rooted in Scripture). Cessationists on the other hand base their beliefs on experience (or lack thereof) ALONE!

    Oh, and I’ll ignore the obvious caricature of the Charismatic Movement (as if it were in any sense monolithic).

  3. What’s truly sad, Nick, is that “speaking in tongues” is not what you all are doing — it’s called “gibberish.” Your brand of “tongues” serves absolutely no useful purpose — it edifies no one except the babbler himself. Paul clearly said that the rapid miraculous spread of language (tongues) would cease. And that mature Christians would no longer “speak as a child”…in gibberish…we put away excitable childish utterances. All in Scripture btw.

  4. Ektachrome: What’s truly sad is that you think what you said is in Scripture. I’ll just point out something that actually is found in Scripture: Paul said that those who speak in tongues speak to God and not to men because ‘nobody’ (οὐκ ἀνθρώποις) understands them (1Cor. 14:2).

    Would you care to support your assertion with an argument? For instance, it seems as if you are contrasting ‘gibberish’ with ‘language’ — if so, what makes you think that ‘gibberish’ is not a language? Do you think this because you can’t understand it? Do you allow for the possibility that even though you might not understand it that God does (ya know, like Paul said)?

    I also note an inconsistency in your comment. First you act as if ‘gibberish’ isn’t actually tongues but then you say that this ‘gibberish’ will cease as if that is what tongues is. So which is it?

    And lastly, would you care to offer some support for the assertion that tongues is ‘the rapid miraculous spread of language’? Could you also point to the time when Paul said this would cease (I already know that you can’t, but if you’d like to offer a suggestion I’d listen)?

  5. Ektachrome,

    There’s one thing that Nick missed about your comments: your understanding of what Paul means by “speaking as a child” misses by a long shot. Paul here refers not only to “speaking”, of course, but also to all sorts of childish behavior, and his point is that doing things from any motivation other than love is to do things childishly. He IN NO WAY implies that glossolalia itself is “speaking as a child”! If that’s what he thought, then why in the world would he “thank God that [he] speak[s] in tongues more than you all”? Is he thanking God that he’s more childish than the Corinthians?

    Honestly, would it really be so hard for cessationists to be a little more responsible in their exegesis?

  6. Speaking in tongue is speaking a language other than a language you were born with. God created all languages and therefore he understands all languages however if some human is speaking a language that no one else understands as in spanish, french, or various other human language he’s not talking to anybody but himself…there are no secret languages between God and human beings.

  7. Wow,I know how I was raised and I know what I know now. Tongues is a prayer language for me for as you pointed out EK, I speak only to God and the crazy thing is, I feel closer to Him when I do and at times I realize I am just praying the scriptures of praise to Him and then move into praying in English. It never sounds like gibberish. Everyone can practice and believe as they wish on this, but I tell you one thing I have learned in my prayer life and studies, whether you believe it or not, if love is not the main focus, neither is right. God bless you all.

  8. Its evident from Acts 2 that the tongues the apostles spoke in were human languages.

    Its also evident from 1 Corinthians 14 that Paul spoke about people speaking to God without the edification of the assembly. Paul was addressing people speaking in tongues with no interpretation. In the assembly of believers, tongues should edify people other than the speaker – hence the need for interpretation if there are people who do not understand (with the possible exception of there being others speaking in the languages of the rest of the assembly giving the same message, as in the case of Acts 2). While the use of tongues to speak to God (in a prayer language) edifies oneself, tongues in the assembly was intended to be a way to speak for God as a prophet in a language known by someone in the audience to edify said audience – which again brings up the need for interpretation for those who did not understand the language.

    As far as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements being based solely on experience, I think it depends on the individual. I know some who are extremely well versed in scripture, and some who are not. The same is true for people who are not in said movements. It is my experience that God meets us where we are. While there are times God will work in our lives outside the box we put Him in, most of the time He is content to limit Himself to work within our level of faith. But I would agree for the need for order in the assembly that is sometimes missing in certain churches (1 Corinthians 14:25-33).

    Tammy is exactly correct, love must be our motivation and focus (1 Corinthians 13).

    I personally see no biblical evidence of the cessation of sign gifts until ‘the perfect comes’, based on 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. In fact, Paul specifically told the assembly to not forbid the speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:). Now it is unclear what ‘the perfect’ is referring to. It may be ‘the perfect’ is Christ upon His second coming, or it may be when we are in heaven, or judgement day, or the New Jerusalem. Personally, since Paul spoke of the ‘the partial’ and ‘seeing in a mirror dimly’, he was speaking of the perfect rest in heaven with God that is to come – just as he did in Colossians 2:16-17 when speaking of the eating, drinking, festivals, and the sabbath day. I doubt Paul was referring to the codification of the New Testament.

  9. Praying to God in any language is very acceptable to Him. I’ve attended church services where the pastor spoke gibberish and claimed he was speaking to God in tongues, problem was it was no spoken language that was understood by anyone including the pastor.

  10. I have been in a service where people talk in tongues,and I believe in it,, most of the time it is just between God and you, but sometimes, with an interpreter,it is for everyone,, specially for the Non-believer…

  11. and I believe that the “gifts’ of God,from the Holy Spirit will be with us until the end of time…I would think that if you don’t believe in them,, the gift of tongues, the gift of healing,the gift of Prohfecy,and others, if you don’t believe in one of these, might as well NOT believe in one….

  12. John: Oh, I didn’t miss that (how could I?!!), I just went another route in my line of questioning. But to answer your final question, yes (!) it would be hard for cessationists to be a little more responsible in their exegesis because doing so would force them to admit that they don’t have a case. 😉

    Peace: I’m sorry, I might be misunderstanding you, but are you saying that there’s no language that God alone understands? If so, what led you to that conclusion?

    wbmoore: I’d agree with pretty much everything you’ve said.

  13. I am a follower of Jesus Christ which makes me a Christian. I read the Bible for myself and God blesses me with his wisdom, knowledge and understanding of his word. I don’t judge anyone as God is the judge of everyone.

    Through my reading of God’s word I have discerned that God is not the God of confusion. God departs gifts to whomever he chooses and the gift of tongues is the ability to interpret another language spoken by another human. God understands all languages spoken by any human he also understands when it is just gibberish.

    If I attended a Church that God has blessed to teach his word in a different Country in order to understand the word being taught in that Church I would need to hear it translated by an interpreter who is gifted in my language as well as the language the word is being taught in at that Church.

    God Bless all of you with his wisdom, knowledge and understanding of his word.

  14. uh… thanks Polycap. 🙂

    Peace, you wrote, “I’ve attended church services where the pastor spoke gibberish and claimed he was speaking to God in tongues, problem was it was no spoken language that was understood by anyone including the pastor.”

    This is the sort of behavior Paul spoke out against in 1 Corinthians 14. Paul was quite clear for the need for interpretation of tongues in church services.

  15. “I also note an inconsistency in your comment. First you act as if ‘gibberish’ isn’t actually tongues but then you say that this ‘gibberish’ will cease as if that is what tongues is. So which is it?”

    Nick – it is all gibberish. The unknown tongues are nothing but actual languages, unknown to the individual and to the congregation – but an unknown language is not gibberish. If a person stood up in my church in rural Illinois and started preaching in Japanese, Korean or Klingon – having never studied the language – that would be the example of tongues that Paul is talking about. If no one in the congregation can interpret, then it edifies no one, but God. This kind of useful miracle has ceased. But the useless babble of immature and emotional Christians has not. It’s not a stretch at all that Paul recognized copy-cat excitable utterances would be confused with the actual miracle of gaining the knowledge of an unstudied language. Hence, put away childish things — babble.
    There is no “prayer language” – you want to talk to God? Then come boldly before the throne and talk. Don’t babble.
    The end result of the charismatic movement is what we have today — gullible, immature Christians taken in by biblical charlatans that coerce emotional responses and money from them. A religion based on pure mysticism, emotion and materialism.

  16. “I also note an inconsistency in your comment. First you act as if ‘gibberish’ isn’t actually tongues but then you say that this ‘gibberish’ will cease as if that is what tongues is. So which is it?”

    After re-reading your question, I see what you’re asking. OK – bottom line is this:
    Paul is speaking of actual language not known to the speaker and, in some cases, not known to the hearers. The gift of tongues was a useful miracle of the Holy Spirit used to rapidly spread the Gospel during the early days of Christianity. That gift has come, existed for a time, and is now gone.
    Charismatics talk of “tongues” as a language, but it is not. It is gibberish from an excited mind. Babbel created by and prompted by human emotion — the human spirit, not the Holy Spirit. Excited utterances from enthusiastic people, self-generated and self-edifying. In that sense, “tongues” have not ceased. It’s a long dead gift being used to deceive and mislead superstitious and religious people.

  17. ektachrome,

    You stated, “This kind of useful miracle has ceased.”
    And then, “That gift has come, existed for a time, and is now gone.”

    Please provide scriptural support for your statement.

    Did you know there are people in the charismatic and pentecostal movements who are not name-it-ane-claim-it folks?

  18. I Cor. 13:8 “Love never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be fulfilled; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”

    The prophecies have been fulfilled (Christ) — the tongues have ceased — the knowledge will be done away when we see Him in Person — but love will abide forever.

  19. Polycarp: Wow, I didn’t know there were any Murrayites left. I haven’t thought about Murray in ages (since my chat room days).

    Ektachrome: All you’ve done is make more assertions. I’m still waiting for an actual argument to support these assertions. So I’ll ask some more questions in hope that they’ll actually be answered. What makes you think that Paul has known languages in mind when he says that they’re languages that “nobody” understands? What makes you think that this so-called gibberish is not a language? Again, do you believe this because YOU don’t understand it? If so, do you think it’s a bit arrogant to set yourself and your limited knowledge up as some kind of standard by which to judge such a thing? Where did Paul say WHEN these things would cease? What prophecies exactly have been fulfilled in Christ? When exactly did these tongues cease and how do you know? Why is the knowledge still around while the other things are not?

  20. Therefore there are no new prophecies until the Christ returns at which time both sons and daughters will prophecy via the Holy Spirit speaking through them. Tougues will cease because upon Christ return we will all speak/understand the same language. Knowledge that doesn’t line up with the word of God will vanish away because all will have true knowledge upon Christs return. No more false teachings.

    God is love and we will abide with him in love forever.

  21. Ektachrome, you quoted I Cor. 13:8 in your attempt to say that prophecies and tongues have ceased. Yet, scripture is clear that this will occur when ‘the perfect’ or ‘perfection’ (depending on your version) ‘comes’.

    In the very next chapter, 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is telling us that prophecy was still occuring when he wrote it. In 1 Thessalonians 5:20, Paul warns to not hold prophecies in contempt. So we know Paul was not writing about the life, suffering, and resurrection of Christ – otherwise prophecy would have not continued to the time of 1 Corinthians or 1 Thessalonians. In fact, if prophecies had ceased, why would Paul provide regulation for the use of that particular gift (1 Corinthians 14)?

    “The prophecies have been fulfilled (Christ) — the tongues have ceased — the knowledge will be done away when we see Him in Person — but love will abide forever.”

    The scripture does not say that tongues HAVE ceased, nor that knowledge HAS passed away – but used the future tense. Paul is speaking of when he will know in full just as he is fully known – when he is with Christ.

    See, the thing is, the prophecies about Christ have not totally been fulfilled – He still has to return (see Revelation). Everything written about the Christ in Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms has been fulfilled. Yet, I do not yet see Christ in person, but I will when He either returns or I go to heaven to meet Him.

    So, again, please provide biblical support for the belief that the sign gifts have ceased. To date, I have seen only a belief with a desire to misunderstand scripture to make it say what you would like, rather than what it does.

  22. Polycarp/wbmoore: The scripture was already provided by EK. I am expressing my understanding of that scripture as I read it. I believe as Christ spoke to his disciples that he has foretold us all things. I believe as Christ spoke to his disciples that many will come in his name but they are not sent by him. I believe that Christ expects his followers to be virgins when he returns and not be found pregnant with the false teachings of Satan. I believe that Christ expects his followers to stand with him upon his return against Satan. I pray to God and ask that he blesses me with wisdom, knowledge and understanding through reading of his word. I am blessed that he does this for me.

    I thank you all for sharing your knowledge of God’s word and pray in the name of Jesus Christ that we are blessed of God and continue to grow in his love. God’s will be done. Amen.

  23. EK, did you write Klingon..I can interpret that, my kids speak that every day. 🙂

    All of this over a gift given by God. Another earthly language, heavenly language, or just for self edification. When you are in a hard place and no one is edifying you in that moment, it helps trust me. You all need to breathe and don’t worry if you pray in tougues or if you don’t, or speak it publically or not. I personally do in my prayer closet. There I came out of the closet. All I know is, I don’t do it publically as I have yet to have a witness in my spirit with an interpretation given when someone else does it publically. It is always something you hope God would speak but rarely follows His Word. As I wrote above, I get the interpretation in my prayer closet and it always is blessing my God, which in turn edifies me.

    You guys are a lot of fun to read sometimes, but can we leave our personal beliefs about gifts such as tongues alone until Jesus comes. I am sure he will clear all of that up for us completely and I would not want to be the embarrased one if I was wrong and made someone elses belief falter.

  24. PeaceBlessin, I think you are confusing what Ektachrome wrote trying to justify the idea that the sign gifts have ceased with what Jesus said.

    Jesus said what was written about Him must be fulfilled:

    Luke 18:31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.

    Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

    And what was written about Jesus was fulfilled. Yet this does not mean prophecy ceased when that happened.

    Acts 2:17-18 In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

    In fact, we see there were prophets in the early church:
    Acts 13:1 In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul.
    Acts 15:32 Judas and Silas were prophets
    Acts 19:4-7 twelve men prophesied when they received the holy spirit.
    Acts 21:8-9 Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.
    Acts 21:10-11 a prophet warned Paul.
    Romans 12:6 – gift of prophecy
    1 Corinthians 11:4-5 – prayer and prophecy
    1 Corinthians 12:8-11 – spiritual gifts include prophecy
    1 Corinthians 13:8-13 – prophecy will cease when perfection comes.
    1 Corinthians 14 – regulation for tongues and prophecy in church service
    Ephesians 3:5 – the Spirit of God makes things clear to apostles and prophets
    Ephesians 4:11 – some are called to be prophets, which is distinct from pastor or teacher.
    1 Thessalonians 5:20 told to not treat prophecies with contempt
    1 Timothy 4:14 – Timothy received his gift through a prophetic message.
    2 Peter 1:21 – prophecy comes from God
    Revelation – a book of prophecy.

    There is no biblical evidence that prophecy has ceased, just as there is no biblical evidence that tongues have ceased. In ft, I’ve been used as a prophet. I’ll write something on this later.

  25. Polycarp,

    Thank you. I can speak from personal experience regarding prophecy – both on the receiving side and the delivering side, as can my wife.

    Speaking of my wife, please continue to pray for her step-father. He is in the hospital, coding as I type, and he has a do not resuscitate order. So he will likely be with the Lord within the day. My wife is stressed and trying to provide support to at least three other stressed people, including her mother. It was decided to keep our kids away until after he passes, so I have them in Memphis. I’ll likely be driving there in the morning, we’ll see. I’m letting her call the shots on this one, for now.

  26. Polycarp, why do you outright lie about what Pastor Murray teaches? He teaches that God created all the races on the 6th day, but that the birth line that which Christ would be born was of Adam and Eve created on the 8th day. He teaches that Satan seduced Eve who also knew her husband Adam and
    she bore twin sons Cain the first murderer(killed his brother Able). Cain was of his father the Devil and Able was of his father, Adam.

    Tammy, please don’t listen to Polycarp. You have a Bible read it for yourself and feel free to check out Pastor Arnold Murray’s Shepard’s Chapel site for yourself. I am an African-American woman and study with Pastor Murray all the time. Polycarp is outright lying about what he teaches and the sad part is Polycarp knows he’s lying…I’ll let you discern why.

    Goodbye Polycarp, thank you for exposing yourself.

  27. Polycarp, God is so good. Instead of allowing me to click on your link reference above He directed me to type in the site directly. You have added Pastor Murray’s name to the information your link. Pastor Murray’s has nothing to do with that site. His name doesn’t even appear on the site when I checked it out directly without your link…Why is that?

    Again, I do not blindly follow any man. God gives me all the wisdom, knowledge and understanding I require.

    Is underminding others the only tool you offer in your teaching of God’s word? God expects his word to be taught in truth not through deception. Please start being more truthful in your teachings. God will take care of Pastor Murray if what he teaches is false.

  28. One last comment, I’ve done more looking into your claims and whenever you direct people to learn about Pastor Martin’s teachings you only direct them to stuff that you have created or have attached his name to through your creation and editing to fit your negative opinion about him. Very clever but also very deceptive.

    God knows your heart, you should teach out of love not out of deception.

    I know that my salvation is by faith and by grace through Jesus Christ and I am thankful to God for all of his blessings in this time.

    God I ask that you continue to bestow your blessings on all of your children and bless those who can hear your word and see your truth in Jesus Christ name I pray. Amen.

  29. You’re still lying I speak about what God says in his written word you know why, I actually read it. The fact is what you say about Pastor Martin is totally different then what he teaches…you spend more time speaking about Pastor Murray then he does about himself he’s busy reading and teaching from the Bible, and you’re busy reading about Pastor Murray. When do you get around to teaching from the Bible. All your postings are just your opinion of another teacher that you don’t agree with so what. God’s word warns us all about false teachers so who are you to judge? Let God be the judge and you do what you do best teach about your opinion of Pastor Murray. That should lead a lot of people to Salvation.

    People pick up your Bible and read it for yourself asking the Father for his help and with God’s mercy and grace you will do just fine without Polycarp and/or Pastor Murray. That’s right Polycarp, I don’t need you or Pastor Murray for my Salvation and neither does anyone else. It is important that you are able to recognize false teachings for yourself not from what someone else’s opinion is of false teachings. What I learn I learn from studying God’s word myself and going directly to the Father for clarity…he is so wise and gives his knowlege freely to those who seek him.

  30. PeaceBlessin,

    The best I can say about your belief that Cain was the offspring of Satan is that you are reading into scripture something that is not there. Let us look at the scriptures using various English versions.

    NASB Genesis 4:1
    1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, “I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD.”

    NiV
    1 Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.”

    KJV
    1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

    ESV
    1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.”

    In each case, the first man, Adam, had sex with his wife and gave birth to a man-child with the help of the Lord. It makes no sense to anyone who can read to believe that satan had anything to do with Cain’s birth.

    Additionally, all mankind was wiped off the earth except for eight people at the time of Noah (Genesis 6-8).

    1 Peter 3:20 (NIV)
    who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water

    So even if Murray were correct, which he is not, all mankind is still related through Noah and Adam.

  31. Polycarp,

    I just can’t get my mind around the apparent purposeful misreading of scripture this doctrine would require.

    There is simply no way satan was the father of Cain, based upon reading what scripture says.

    Not only from what we have seen, but we see that it was through one man that every nation was created.

    Acts 17:26-27 (NIV)
    26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

    All mankind is related through Noah and Adam – not through Satan.

  32. Polycarp,

    You know so much more about various church movements than I. I don’t spend much time with it. I don’t have the patience. I would rather simply teach the scriptures and the truth.

  33. I admire your diligence in seeking out what the church fathers taught. Its useful information, though not necessarily an accurate understanding of scripture.

  34. Hey, all … I just read through this entire dissertation and, what? Did anyone convince anyone?

    Folks, stop listening to the preachers for a time and read YOUR Bible. Ask the Lord to give you guidance and he will.

    The way I see it, anyway …

  35. ‘Max’, if you don’t have the courage of your convictions to leave a real email address, I will not let you spam my site with useless garbage debunked with even a mediocre reading of Church History.

  36. Seriously who are your Charismatic or Pentecostal friends? I have hardly ever met any Pente or Charismatic that thinks ‘speaking in tongues for two hours in a Sunday service’ is just fine. That is like saying that all Baptists wave ‘God hates fags’ banners because some random group have done so. Both groups are fringe and don’t define the larger at all (and arguably are not part of them at all)

    Those who argue that Pente services are more like a ‘pep rally’ and not at all honourable are speaking through the lense of your conservative western culture and personality not the exuberance of praise shown throughout scripture (you actually sound like Michal). I believe in LOUD praise and dancing as per scripture, I believe in Raising hands and standing, I believe in bowing the knee in fearful reverence and in tearful repentance. Why because each can be seen in Scripture.

    Don’t let the Euro form of worship become your definition of corporate worship. Sit in an African or Asian or South American Service in praise to God and you will get a glimpse of some of the corporate gathering you are going to be part of in heaven (Rev 7:9 – 12)

  37. As Jim West has deleted his past blogs it is great that at least some small parts still exist. Judging by the excerpt here, he doesn’t think anyone should ask God for healing. So I wonder what happens when one of his congregation asks him to pray for them or for a sick relative. Surely he wouldn’t say no?

    His aversion to signs I guess explains why he says he won’t shake hands with anyone.

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