Our Government has no sense unless it is founded in a deeply felt religious faith, and I don’t care what it is. – New York Times, Dec 23 1952
Our Government has no sense unless it is founded in a deeply felt religious faith, and I don’t care what it is. – New York Times, Dec 23 1952
While the constitution does not allow the federal government to establish a religion, this does not mean the US is not or has not been a Christian nation – the laws were founded on the principles found in the Bible and the majority of its people considered (indeed according to some estimates, still consider) themselves Christians.
Interestingly, there have been a number of presidents who seemed to agree with that position.
John Quincy Adams
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=29467&st=Christian+Nation&st1=
President Teddy Roosevelt
http://books.google.com/books?dq=Theodore%20Roosevelt%2C%20The%20Man%20As%20I%20Knew%20Him&printsec=frontcover&sig=Ct5Ez-9SyBpPMQRjvojKM-K8HBA&ei=6yM-S4SyO4m1tgfiivD5CA&ct=result&id=VXLGC8L0hJUC&ots=dIuVhYx0GM&output=text&pg=PA307
President Herbert Hoover
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=22855
President Harry Truman
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=12746
President Richard Nixon
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=3597
Congress has also stated similar things over the years.
http://www.forbes.house.gov/uploadedfiles/Footnoted397.pdf
Just saying…
Wb, Adams was deistic at best. Further, simply because people feel that they are Christian, doesn’t make it so.
just because he does not meet a certain definition of christian does not mean he did not consider himself one.
In letter to Thomas Jefferson dated 4 Nov 1816
http://books.google.com/books?id=MZQ8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA226&ots=9FmMaep4lV&dq=he+Works+of+John+Adams,+Second+President+of+the+United+States+vol+III&output=text page 228
From John Quincy Adams’ diary 26 July 1796
http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=2101&layout=html
As for whether the principles found in the Bible were used to establish this nation, you are in disagreement with at least one person who was there:
Governor Winthorp on the founding of America
http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=2101&layout=html
So, we could conclude then, that because Jim Jones declared himself a Christian, then he assuredly was one, regardless if his Christianity was civil or historical or even real?
You are not orthodox Christian, according to trinitarians. So should we not consider you Christian?
The country united on the principles of Christianity and liberty, according to John Adams in a Letter to Thomas Jefferson. Liberty is not the same as indivdualism.
http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=2127&layout=html
28 June, 1813
And you aren’t either to Catholics, Orthodox, Copts, etc… so why should we consider you one? This is the circular logic – why do we insist on calling a spade a heart?
But the thing is, you call yourself a Christian. Some people dont like certain things you believe, but you still consider yourself a Christian. Who is wrong?
Good point, Wb, one which I don’t have an answer too.
Yes, that is right, you have me unable to retort.
Wb,
Could you tell me how the right to bare arms, slavery, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion is Christian liberty?
Actually, that is not what John Adams said. He said general principles of Christianity and liberty, not Christian liberty.
I did not originate the above quote from John Adams – he did. I have no idea if he was speaking of those particular things or not (I tend to doubt it, but I dont know). Adams seemed to think it was those principles that united this country. Whether the particular examples flow from general Christian principles or not does not mean he was wrong.
He was there.
True, but I suspect that his idea of Christian principles are more like Newton and Locke’s.
And it may be you are right. But we don’t know. I happen to think that much of what he termed general principles of liberty would fit into what those illustrious people wrote. But I dont know.
What we DO know is John Adams thought the unity was achieved using general principles of liberty and Christianity.
I would say this, that a key to Christianity first and foremost is as Calvin said – There is one God, Christ is God. Considering that Adams believed against the latter, he might have been a cultural Christian, but as to acknowledge that Christ is indeed God, he did not.
I have no doubt that unity is achieved only in Christianity and I believe that all of us, as long as we agree that Christ is God, can fully agree to that.
US constitution, Article 1 Section 7 exempts Sunday from when the President can return a bill to congress. This is thought by many to forbid law making on Sundays. Sunday is the holy day of rest for Christians, do you know of any other reason why Sunday would be exempted?
And as to whether Unitarians were cultural christians only, This is what Associate Justice of the Supreme Court (1812-1847) said concerning Unitarians in a letter dated March 6th 1824:
http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924021162973/cu31924021162973_djvu.txt
And he, like apparently many of the founding fathers, thought Christianity was needed for this country to survive.
letter dated March 24, 1801
First, the American Revolution was hardly a revolution against Christianity – further, the populace still was culturally Christian, like it is today. Further, a partition of Sunday does not a Christian nation make. Considering that the setting aside of Sunday is exactly biblical, it is still remains an ode to civil religion.
Further, you seem to take the words of a generation later, discounting the fact that Unitarianism – which denied the deity of Christ among other things – was rising. Is living a moral life enough to declare oneself a Christian? Considering that Story was a Unitarian, it would make sense for him to defend Unitarianism as a Christian religion. http://www.michaelariens.com/ConLaw/justices/story.htm
I never said it was a revolution against Christianity. I said it was on the general principles of liberty and Christianity that united the people. Many of the founding fathers seemed to have said the same or similar thing. As evidenced by my quotes of Winthorpe and Adams.
Oh. I think I found why Sunday was exempted – many states had laws forbidding travel on Sunday – in deference to the Christian Sabbath, which were common in the states.
Jospeh Story was a justice on the supreme court from 1812-1847. He was born 1779, and served at Madison’s request. So I guess that technically, he was a different generation from Adams and Jefferson, but worked with them.
You asked about which things might be based in Christian principles. I found that Chief Justice Earl Warren in 1954 said he thought our country was founded on Christian principles, and he might have a good point.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,936197,00.html#ixzz0bTk5gCDt
I found an interesting blog entry that seems to reflect what I am finding in my reading: Jefferson was held to the ethics taught by Christianity, regardless of whether he could be considered a deist – he was a unitarian.
http://westernexperience.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/was-thomas-jefferson-a-deist/
Whether he was a deist or not, he did not believe a nation could exist without religion.
I believe Ben Franklin claimed to be a deist. Its obvious he did not like organized religion. And he was definitely unitarian (its obvious he did not understand trinity). But he certainly does not sound like a deist as we would understand the term.
At the Constitutional convention June 28, 1787, he claimed God governs the affairs of men, that unless God builds it its in vain. He asked for prayers for God’s assistance and blessing.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/benfranklin.htm
That makes me wonder what people would say about my religious beliefs based upon my writings – given that I’ve been catholic, agnostic, wiccan, and Christian…
In showing the importance of the Christian religion (of various denominations), when asked why he went to church, Thomas Jefferson is said to have stated
( http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=23909#FN23
Hutson, Religion, p. 96, quoting from a handwritten history in possession of the Library of Congress, “Washington Parish, Washington City,” by Rev. Ethan Allen. )
WB, Story was indeed a Justice but my point was that he was too a Unitarian, so using his words to defend his Christianity is like using a Mormon’s. Let’s see, Warren? 1954 – what about the Treaty of Tripoli in the early 1800’s which said we are not a Christian nation. Its fine to look back and say things, but what about the people on the ground while it happened?
I think we can look for things which say Christian and say, oh, there were clearly Christian, but their ideas about Christianity was more along the lines of Civil Religion – no not all, but many. Plus, the numbers of Church goers in the early history of this country is nothing compared to even what we have now.
ooops posted the same thing twice in the same post. sorry
My point with Justice Warren was to give a explanation of a part of what we are founded upon being based upon Christian principles.
As for a unitarian describing unitarianism, I return to the fact that you call yourself a Christian. Just because they are not trinitarian does not mean they are not Christian.
I’ve given you examples of the founders themselves saying they had founded a government based upon Christian principles. Go argue with them.
As for the treaty of Tripoli, I like the explanation given by wall builders.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=125
The actual article in question reads,
The key to the article is ” as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims]”. the point being that the USA is not founded on the Christian religion because/since it doesn’t hate the laws/religion/tranquility of muslims. The Christian religion would be the excesses which the Christianity of Europe succumbed to, and the USA was not established on those excesses.
But notice that Noah Webster wrote concerning the basis for a republican government:
http://books.google.com/books?id=jGcAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA310&ots=LSttRhsyAJ&vq=ecclesiastical+establishments&dq=Noah+Webster+%22History+of+the+United+States%22&output=text
More about what Noah Webster (1758-1843) said concerning Christian principles as being important to the USA, in his “History of the United States”
http://books.google.com/books?id=jGcAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA305&ots=LSttRhsyAJ&vq=ecclesiastical+establishments&dq=Noah+Webster+%22History+of+the+United+States%22&output=text
and
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA310&vq=ecclesiastical%20establishments&dq=Noah%20Webster%20%22History%20of%20the%20United%20States%22&id=jGcAAAAAYAAJ&ots=LSttRhsyAJ&output=text
So we see yet another person who stated that the USA was founded upon Christian principles. Now, you may want to believe this has nothing to do Christianity but only civil religion, and maybe you are correct but this idea seems to go against what the founders said.
Your statement, “Plus, the numbers of Church goers in the early history of this country is nothing compared to even what we have now,” has no bearing on whether this country was founded upon the principles of Christianity.
Even so, I’ve only seen one person discussing a study of how people might have attended church less during the revolution than now, but no sources were given.
Wb, then let us assume that Jehovah’s Witnesses and all others who claim the name of Christ are truly Christian. Or the Emergent Church crowd, of those who believe that merely acknowledging God then they are always saved, regardless of their life. Perhaps, instead of searching into their Christian too, we simply take everyone at face value, not merely because of doctrine, but because they deny the deity of Christ and live a life unchanged. Can we simply rely upon those who say that they are Christian? Or do we examine the fact that many among the Founders treated Christianity as a civil religion Locke or Hobbs would have done. What then is the Christianity which they supported? Is it close to yours – not in mere doctrine, but in the life which you lead and believe that Christians should lead?
If they saw Christianity as a means to an end, as a philosophy, would they then be Christian?
Using Story to defend Unitarianism’s Christianity is like using Joseph Smith to defend Mormonism’s Christianity.
Noah Webster, again, was writing a generation after the Founding of the Republic. This is why we go back to the sources, which is the Founders themselves, not interpreters of history with agendas.
Plenty of evidence for a dramatic fall off of church attendance after the Revolution.
BTW, moderation is happening because of the links – YOU ARE NOT MODERATED 🙂
You might not like the idea, but Noah Webster served in the Revolutionary War. He wrote some of the Federalist Papers. He was a founding father. He was of the generation which participated in the revolution – not a generation later. He also was not unitarian, but was Congregationalist.
In fact, the majority of the founding fathers who signed Declaration of Independence (July 1776), the Articles of Confederation (drafted 1777, ratified 1781) or the Constitution of the United States of America (1789), or were members of the First Federal Congress, were Episcopalian/Anglican, Presbyterian, or Congregationalist ( http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html ).
The same is true for the senators and representatives of the 1st US Congress ( http://www.adherents.com/gov/congress_001.html ).
From here: http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html
George Washington was Anglican/Episcopalian
John Adams was Unitarian
Thomas Jefferson was unknown (probably unitarian, but never associated with one)
James Madison was Espicopalian.
John Qunicy Adams was Unitarian
Andrew Jackson was Presbyterian
Martin Van Buren was Dutch Reformed
And before you say George Washington was a deist or nominal… His granddaughter, whom he adopted almost at birth as his daughter and who lived with he and his wife 20 years said he was episcopalian and a devout Christian ( http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g011.html ). Additionally, George Washington’s private secretary and nephew, Robert Lewis said he had witnessed Washington in his morning and nightly devotions and thought it his habit ( http://books.google.com/books?id=1xmDojRqWo4C&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=%22Robert+Lewis,+at+Fredricksburg%22&source=bl&ots=rygRU7Rp42&sig=Glfi4TxvezOg8kndJdhNFVKCfjQ&hl=en&ei=3jVAS87wLY2Vtgf4sY2HDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=%22Robert%20Lewis%2C%20at%20Fredricksburg%22&f=false ).
So, while you might want to go along with the history revisionists, I think its clear the majority of the founding fathers were Christian and that this country was founded upon christian principles.
Wb, Noah Webster was in college during the Revolution and only worked on Federalist newspapers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster
Regarding Washington:
oh, and I realize its the links that are making me be moderated.
From the source you provided regarding Noah Webster ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster )
And you’re right about him working on federalist newspapers. my bad, dont know how I made the switch there.
George Washington took it upon himself to become a god father to various children ( http://books.google.com/books?id=MzWruWAnHM0C&dq=george+washington+christian&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=Dz2OCAjsLd&sig=RH0-E06I-rFqwJN1TnAVS6rJspY&hl=en&ei=EppAS9DpHca0tgeEoYWWCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=&f=false ).
I think its interesting you chose to use quotes from an atheist site regarding whether Washington was Christian ( http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/washington.htm ) .
Doubly so, when Sparks, who gathered much of Washington’s writings together said he himself believed George Washington was a Christian.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa&cc=moa&xc=1&idno=abp4456.0012.001&g=moagrp&q1=Christian+would+be+to+impeach+his+sincerity&frm=frameset&view=text&seq=419
And his first biographer, John Marshall, who would become Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, stated he believed George Washington to be a Christian.
His daughter, who said he was a very private man, believed him to be Christian and said he had private devotions morning and night.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;xc=1;idno=abp4456.0012.001;g=moagrp;q1=Christian%20would%20be%20to%20impeach%20his%20sincerity;frm=frameset;view=text;seq=420;page=root;size=s
As for George Washington not taking communion – apparently he did so before the revolution, but not afterwards. I dont know why he didn’t, but there have been periods of time in my life when I did not take communion for years – for various reasons (I did not belong to the church and felt I should know more about the people in question before I shared communion with them; I was not in a good place with the Lord so did not want to bring judgement upon myself; etc).
But regardless of Washington’s position with Christ, the overwhelming majority of people involved in the founding of our nation were Christian, and those principles – based upon the words of the people involved – were used in the founding of our nation.
Wb, tell me, exactly what where those Christian principles?
Considering that Sparks had no first hand knowledge, only that Washington communed with God in private, we jump to the conclusion because he used godly terms (which any deist can do) that he was indeed a Christian.
Further, I want to make it clear – there were severe Christians, pastors, men and women of God who fought for and helped to establish this country, but I am not convinced that it was the over whelming numbers that some make up. Further, considering that the British Army was Christian, as was the Empire, and indeed all of Europe, what does that tell us? There was a pastor, Mason I think, who signed the Declaration who believed that Christianity shouldn’t play a part in the government. Further, by the election in 1800, Christians were waging political wars against Thomas Jefferson and some of the Founders because they were not Christian enough. This is not revisionist history, but true and accurate history. We can quote what others have to say, but it is telling that rarely do we find honest Christian sentiments expressed by the Founders. If we examine the ‘God of nature’, ‘nature’s God’ and ‘Providence’ among other godly terms, we find that the same terms were used by the deists of the day, and many of them considered themselves ‘Christian.’ Why? because unlike the frontier revivals, and the men and women in the hills, the fine educated city folk viewed Christianity as an inheritance, much like Locke and Hobbes did.
People can speak of Christ, but are they Christian? People can admire Christ and the Bible, the morals contained therein, but does that a Christan make? No.
Further, you cannot, again, place modern examples against those from history. What was the cultural context of not taking Communion? It was self-excommunication. If we examine the Episcopal Church of the day, we find that it was very much for the wealthier people to showcase their Christianity. I would encourage you to examine the Virginia League. Further, his pastor said:
His pastor would contend that he was a deistist. And yes, we each have our rather biased sources, which is rather telling that we cannot appeal to the people themselves.
From another place –
The Reverend Bird Wilson, who was just a few years removed from being a contemporary of the so-called founding fathers, said further in the above-mentioned sermon that “the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson] _not a one had professed a belief in Christianity_” (Remsberg, p. 120, emphasis added).
And as Thomas Jefferson wrote on Washington’s death –
And, we haven’t begun to touch Thomas Paine.
You know, given how you do not like Catholic revisions made to what the apostles taught, I am surprised you like to believe historical revisionists when it comes to the founding of our nation.
But, WB, I can say the same about you.
Paine was against any sort of organized religion, it seemed. But every founding father I’ve read spoke against his pamphlet.
As a possible reason George Washington did not take communion, and whether one was excommunicating one’s self, Bishop Meade stated ( http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA196&id=FhgFAAAAYAAJ&output=text ):
There is an interesting observation on this post ( http://americanfounding.blogspot.com/2008/03/washington-on-episcopal-bishop-samuel.html ), which in short states there was a split among the episcopalians between high and low church, and the bishop had had to get ordained by the scots, who had leanings towards catholicism. This might be enough to cause Washington to not want to take communion in the Episcopalian church. Who knows? He seems to have been a private person.
But having said that, apparently there are stories of George Washington taking communion elsewhere (Morristown). Granted, they dont seem to be first hand accounts, but it does not mean they are false.
letter Of Rev. James Richards, D.D. 14th of April, 1836.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA91&id=FhgFAAAAYAAJ&output=text
Apparently, he also took communion in Philadelphia.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA196&id=FhgFAAAAYAAJ&output=text
At least one of the principles was rules of order and right, according to Washington’s 1st inaugral address ( http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/american_originals/inaugtxt.html ):
John Adams wrote in “Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States” ( http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch16s15.html ), speaking of commandments of heaven – a deist would not consider the Bible to be from God, since God would not be thought to intervene in the world (which is a requirement for God to have commanded things as found in the Bible). In speaking of such, he gave some of the principles of Christianity of which he spoke:
George Washington also seemed to think the morality, peace, justice as taught by Christianity were some of the principles of Christianity upon which this nation was founded ( http://books.google.com/books?id=FhgFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA219&output=text#c_top ).
In Washington’s proposed 1st inaugral address ( http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=WasFi30.xml&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=245&division=div1 ), he wrote of the Religion revealed in the word of God – which one would not think a deist would believe.
In the same speech, it seems he gave thanks for the work God had done in founding the nation, which does not sound like a deist to me.
I thought deists did not believe in revelation, yet Washington captialized it – it had meaning when he spoke of it in his Circular to the States, 8 June 1783 ( http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch7s5.html ):
George Washington believed in miracles and God interfering in the affairs of men, which a deist doesnt ( http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/ot2www-washington?specfile=/texts/english/washington/fitzpatrick/search/gw.o2w&act=surround&offset=9051749&tag=Writings+of+Washington,+Vol.+7:+To+BRIGADIER+GENERAL+SAMUEL+HOLDEN+PARSONS+Morris+Town,+April+23,+1777.+&query=miracle&id=gw070446 ):
John Adams in a letter to Zabdiel Adams, June 21, 1776 ( http://www.founding.com/founders_library/pageID.2144/default.asp ) seemed to believe in Satan, an interesting thought for a deist…
Wb, we could go on, of course, but tell me, if I lined up what Washington as said with say, Freemasonary – which is primarily a neutralizing deistic organization – would it be more in line with them or with the Christianity of the Bible?
My point is that just because someone else calls you something (deist) does not make it so.
I know the masons claim George Washington, and in a cursory view that seems appropriate. But I have no idea if George Washington believed what Masons believe – I’d have to do a study orf masonry in those times and what Washington’s writings show us (not what others claim about him). I think Masonry is worse than merely being a neutralizing deistic organization (I’d have to find my notes to enumerate exactly why, but I may have lost them in the last death of my laptop). But by the same token, many masons (even high ranking ones) have not taken the time to consider the ramifications of what masons teach in comparison to what Scripture teaches. Other masons just do it for the fellowship and care little/nothing about the other things in the craft/society. Others only focus on the moral principles and ignore the rest. *shrug* I dont know what Washington thought about what they taught in terms of spiritual matters, even though he seemed to have thought well of masonry’s principles (but I am uncertain of what he meant by that).
Also, just because other religions have certain things in common with Christianity does not mean those principles found Christianity were not used to form the government – especially when at least some of the people there have stated that it WAS principles of Christianity which helped form this nation.
Considering he was a Grand Master, I am pretty sure Washington was firm in Masonry. I’ll let your last word stand, Wb.