Philosophy, Urantia, and an Open Letter

A few years ago I joined a mailing list about Christian Philosophy. Ultimately the list was taken over by “Jesusonians” (a cult of christianity akin to scientology or mormonism). I spent many hours debating with these guys until they eventually banned me.

Andre was one of the guys I was debating, and eventually he sent me an email off list telling me he had rejected “Jesusonian” and their book, The Urantia Book.

Eventually he sent me this letter which I wanted to post as an example of, and a warning about these new age religions. Its quite long, but interesting reading.

SUBJECT: OPEN LETTER TO THE BODY OF CHRIST

Note: Unless otherwise noted, all Scripture quotes are taken from the New American Standard version of the Bible.  In the body of this letter, the term UB will be used to refer to the Urantia Book.  The universal referencing system introduced by the Uversa Press edition of The UB (Paper:Section.Paragraph) will be used to cite passages from the UB.

Upon completion of this letter, I realized that I was opening myself up to a potential misunderstanding.  Throughout the piece, I point out several times that it is not our belief in Jesus that saves us, but Christ’s saving work on the cross that does the trick.  While this is certainly true, I don’t want people to think that I view belief as irrelevant or unimportant.  Believing in Jesus is essential to salvation, and only believers will be saved.  The point here is that God took the initiative in saving us; He came to us before we ever came to Him.  Because of His unconditional love for us, He provided a way for us to be saved before we ever chose to believe.  We are all potentially saved.  It is up to us to receive that gift, but the gift was there for us long before we ever chose to receive it.  I am not a universalist; there is a Hell, and many people end up there.  It’s a question of emphasis in our presentation of the Gospel.
While belief is essential to salvation, it is not the basis of our salvation.  That work belongs to Christ and Christ alone.

To my brothers and sisters in Christ,

The following letter is my humble attempt to recall, in honest detail, my spiritual journey, including my immersion in a false New Age religion, and my subsequent return to the Lord.  I hope that my testimony will open the eyes of pastors, church leaders, and Christian apologists, assisting them in their efforts to minister to intellectually inclined seekers, as well as Christians with sincere doubts and questions about their faith.

I wish to dispel the myth that “real Christians” don’t doubt the Bible and never stray from the path of theological orthodoxy.  In my case, I not only doubted cardinal Christian doctrines like the virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, and the physical resurrection of Christ, but I even  spoke out publicly against these truths.

But thank God, we are not saved by our theology, as important as that is.  It is Christ and Christ alone who saves.  I am saved only by what Christ did for me on the cross, not by my belief in His atoning sacrifice.  It’s about his faithfulness to me; not about my fidelity to Him or my adherence to correct Christian doctrine.

The same is true of repentance from sin.  While it’s true that God’s kindness moves us to repentance (Romans 2:4), the Gospel does not begin with my repentance, but with Christ’s work on my behalf.  It is God who took the initiative, for “we love because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19).  I know now that I never lost my salvation, I just lost my faith for a while.  I will elaborate more on this point later.

Acknowledgments

While it is ultimately true that God gets all the glory for my return home to His fold, I could not have done it without the gracious assistance of several Christian brothers and sisters.  I would like to begin by thanking Dr. Freddy Cardoza, chairman of the Christian Education Department at Biola University, whose messages spoke to both my head and my heart.  Freddy never patronized me, and always answered my theological questions to the best of his ability.  He always made me feel like I didn’t have to check my intelligence at the door before I entered a church service.  Freddy, you’re not only a great teacher, but a wonderful friend.

I would also like to thank Don Veinot of Midwest Christian Outreach, who also answered my theological questions, particularly about specific biblical passages, always clearly and in context.  Many thanks also to Dale Essary, whose site,www.ubhoax.org, is the best refutation of the UB I’ve ever seen.  And credit goes to Eric Pement, who has also done extensive work on the UB from a Christian perspective.  In addition, I’d like to thank Tom Trento, who came into my life to remind me that things really were better in my Father’s house.  Thanks are also extended to Grant Swank, who modeled the love of Christ to me, and is the very opposite of a self-righteous legalist.

This list would not be complete without the inclusion of three men who I have known for a long time through my background in Christian radio.  The first is talk-show host Dick Staub, who I interned with in the 1990s.  Dick never spoke Christianese, and showed me that it was perfectly possible to be a Christian and still be a well-rounded, well-read intellectual.  The second is Rich Buhler, who validated my feelings and ministered to me in his kind and gracious way.  And of course, how can I forget my dear friend, brother, and business partner Steve Carr, who continued to view me as my brother in Christ, even as I was spreading false teaching.

For most of my life, I have been searching for a sense of community–for an extended family that would love me unconditionally.  For a while, I thought I would find this family among Urantia Book readers.  But the truth is, my support group was sitting right under my nose.  Three brothers in Christ stand out in particular: Bob Brasher, whom I have known since 1993 (Bob, you are as reliable as clockwork); Dan Lapinski, whose eagerness to love and serve others puts me to shame; and Don Roberts, who is just an all-around good brother.  And how can I forget Jerry McGlothlin, who has provided employment for me for the last 10 years, and has stayed loyal to me despite my inconsistent and sporadic work habits.

Before I get accused of  making this an all-men’s club, my heartfelt gratitude goes out to Dani Chaffin, whose struggles have been so similar to my own.  Dani, you’re a kindred spirit, and trust me, that’s a huge compliment.  I would also like to thank Julie Osgood and Julie Canny, who both showed me unconditional love.

And before I forget, I need to thank my good friend Roger Mansour, who led me to the Lord when I was fifteen.  Roger, you have been a great friend, mentor, and father figure through the years.  You even got me started as a standup comedian.  Roger has a mission in Haiti, and I would encourage everyone who reads this letter to give what they can to his ministry.  He can be reached at mission.helphaiti@yahoo.com.

Early Years

I was born in Chicago on January 16, 1970, the child of 1st-generation immigrants.  My mother, who is Ukrainian, escaped Communism with her family shortly after WW II, spending her first few years in a displaced persons’ camp.  My father emigrated from Italy as a teenager.  I grew up in a nominally Catholic home.  My mother and grandmother attended a Ukrainian Catholic church.  I went on occasion, but frankly, the whole experience bored the hell out of me.  The emphasis was on ethnic traditions; many of which were beautiful, but I never heard the Gospel and never heard anyone speak of God in a personal or intimate way.

The one notable exception was my grandmother.  She was an orthodox Catholic and believed in purgatory, but she knew the Lord intimately, despite some of her unbiblical theology.  I can fondly remember her kneeling by my bedside and saying the Our Father in Ukrainian, along with the obligatory prayers to Mary and my guardian angel.  It was clear to me that for her, the Lord was a deeply felt presence, not an abstract or distant deity.  I never could tell what my mother believed; I don’t think she knows to this day.

My father was basically an atheist.  Though he never labeled himself as such, he was strongly interested in artificial intelligence, and believed that human brain patterns could be replicated in the laboratory.  After all, he reasoned, we’re just sophisticated machines, devoid of anything like a soul or spirit.

While I like to tell people  that I got saved 2,000 years ago when Jesus died for me, I did  have a  few conversion experiences, where God made His presence known to me and assured me that I was His child.  I was five years old, and riding the school bus home, when the driver turned to me and asked, “Would you like to ask Jesus into your heart?”  She was a sweet Southern lady, and her son, a kid about my age, was sitting in the back seat.  It was obvious she was raising him in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.  “Yes,” I said, and responded in childlike faith.  When I got home, I told my Mom that I had just asked Jesus into my heart.  I don’t recall what she said, but it obviously didn’t make an impression on her.

Growing up as a blind child, I wasn’t as physical as other kids, which gave me a lot of time for solitary reflection.  I spent a lot of time reading.  I was a very precocious child, and was reading Greek mythology in 2nd grade.  I even tried reading Mark Twain a year earlier.  My favorite books were those that fed my imagination–fantasy, fairy tales, science fiction, etc.  My mother hated reading me those stories; she preferred realistic books.  As I look back on it, those books paved the way for my later spiritual pursuits; they gave me a glimpse of a possible world beyond this one.

I also spent a lot of time listening to the radio.  While my sighted friends spent much of their leisure time watching television, I was obsessing over the AM signals I picked up from Canada, or my dream of one day sitting behind the microphone and spinning the tunes.  My childhood hero was Steve Dahl, a local shock jock who made news with a stunt called Disco Demolition in 1979.  I wanted to be the next Steve Dahl.  I was obsessed with radio formats, and I would call up DJs and spend hours grilling them about the industry.  I knew more about radio than any kid should be allowed to know.

Well, during my trips up and down the dial, along with the rock ‘n’ roll, I discovered Christian radio.  In particular, I found a program called Unshackled, a radio drama series produced at the Pacific Garden Mission in Chicago.  The stories were about people whose lives had been changed after they had received Jesus as their personal Savior.  Honestly, the dramas were pretty tacky, complete with melodramatic organ music and bad B movie dialogue.  But they still had an effect on me; I wanted what these people had.  I wanted a personal encounter with Jesus Christ.  I wanted my heart to change.  I wanted Jesus as my best and closest friend.  But I didn’t know how to get it; I had no Christians I could go to for help, so I was left to my own devices.

The summer before my freshman year in high school, I wrote a poem in a creative writing class.  I normally don’t write poetry, but this one was an adolescent masterpiece.

I am the fish that swim in the ocean,
I am the catastrophe after the explosion.
I am the birds that sit in the trees,
I am the leaves that blow in the breeze.
I am the book you read before bed,
I am the thoughts you have in your head.
I am the past, the present, the future,
I am everywhere.
I am.

Pleased with my work, I read it to a friend of mine, who told his dad about it.  Apparently, he was impressed; he thought I was some enlightened soul or something.  So, next time I saw my friend, he introduced me to a book that would chart my spiritual course for years to come.

The Urantia Book

It was June of 1984, and I had just graduated from the 8th grade.  My friend spent the night one evening, and after dinner, he told me about this book his dad had been reading for years.  Called the Urantia Book, it claimed to be a revelation from angels and other superhuman beings.  The term Urantia was a name these celestial beings had apparently coined for our planet.  Anyway, I was scared and fascinated at the same time.  Fascinated by the prospect of a book that claimed to be a revelation from another world, and attracted by the thrill of special knowledge.  But scared because so much of what my friend had told me was contrary to what I’d been taught, and so different from what I’d been hearing on Christian radio.  So, for those not in the loop, here’s an overview.

Overview of the Urantia Book

The Urantia Book (UB) is a huge tome, 2097 pages long, that consists of 196 papers, each one claiming to be written by a different celestial being.  The alleged authors go by names like Perfector of Wisdom, Divine Counselor, Brilliant Evening Star, and Melchizedek.

The UB community makes a big deal about the “unknown origin” of the book, but there is a widely circulated urban legend about how it came to be.  The consensus account involves a man named Dr. William S. Sadler, a student of Freud’s and a psychiatrist practicing in Chicago in the early 1900s.  Apparently, a woman came to him concerned about her husband, who would go into a deep sleep from which she was unable to waken him.  While in this trance-like state, this man was supposedly being used as a kind of clearing-house for various celestial beings, who spoke through this person.  This man, whose anonymity has been protected, is known among the UB readership as the “sleeping subject.”

The spin is that Dr. Sadler was a skeptic of the paranormal.  He was on a crusade to disprove the various mediums, psychics, and other occult practitioners that made the lecture circuit at that time.  Sadler claimed to disprove every single case except the one involving the sleeping subject.  So, in the summer of 1911, shortly after he discovered this guy, he formed a group of five people called the Contact Commission, designed to study the messages that were coming from the subject’s mouth.  The process began in 1911, and went on for over 20 years.  In 1929, Sadler wrote a book called The Mind at Mischief, in which he tried to show that most paranormal claims were based on self-deception, and could be explained away as either outright fraud or could be chalked up to natural psychological processes.  But in the appendix to the book, Sadler mentions the case of the sleeping subject, and claims he has no explanation for it.

During the 1930s, as rumor has it, the papers began to mysteriously appear in Sadler’s drawer.  By 1935, the Urantia Papers were completed.  At the time, the papers had not yet been published in the form of a book, but Sadler gathered around him a group of close associates known as the Forum.  The Forum members would meet on Sunday afternoons at Dr. Sadler’s office building at 533 Diversey Parkway to discuss and study the papers.  Eventually, the papers were published by the Urantia Foundation as a book in 1955.

Teachings of the UB

The UB is divided into four parts plus a foreword.  The parts are named as follows:  Part I, The Central and Superuniverses; Part II, The Local Universe; Part III, The History of Urantia; and Part IV, The Life and Teachings of Jesus.  Like most good science-fiction, the UB teaches that we are not alone in the universe.  In fact, the text claims, the universe is teeming with life of all sorts, and contains a veritable plethora of beings, human, animal, and otherwise.  Many of these beings, like humans, have the capacity to know God and to strive to be like him.

And striving to be like God is a huge theme in the UB.  The authors take quite literally Jesus’ command to “be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect” (cf. Matthew 5:48).    Since this perfection is obviously unattainable in this life, many lives are required to achieve it.  But the authors are quick to point out that they don’t endorse reincarnation.  Instead, we are offered a plan the UB calls the Ascension Scheme.

The UB’s worldview is essentially evolutionary.  Human beings evolve from their animal origins and gradually evolve into godlike status as spirit beings.  The Ascension scheme primarily embraces life after death, as mortals move through a series of worlds in various sectors of the universe designed to instruct them in universe administration and spiritual progress.

In other words, when we die, the UB teaches that we will wake up on a world where we will continue to learn and grow.  Once we have finished learning our “lessons” in that world, we go on to the next one, and the next one, etc, until we become perfect and attain Paradise.  Once entering Paradise, we don’t stay there forever; instead, we become part of an eternal group of volunteers called the Corps of the Finality.  As a member of this corps, we go back out into the universe and serve in some unrevealed capacity among other evolutionary planets.

The UB claims to reveal an immense cosmic bureaucracy; a whole host of angels and other celestial beings with various specialized functions.  The universe is said to operate on a three-branch system of government much like the American Constitution.  And speaking of life after death, the UB rejects entirely any notion of Hell or eternal punishment.  Rather than Hell, those who deliberately reject God will simply be annihilated; they will cease to exist.

The vast universe described in the UB is made up of various divisions.  Our planet, Urantia, is part of a local system called Satania.  Satania is part of a constellation called Norlatiadek, which is part of a local universe called Nebadon.  Each local universe has 10 million inhabited worlds, and is part of a superuniverse, of which there are seven.  Ours is called Orvonton.
Each local universe has at its head a being called a Creator Son.  A Creator Son is the creator of each local universe and all its inhabited worlds.  Each of the Creator Sons is of the Order of Michael.  Our Creator Son, Michael, incarnated in the likeness of mortal flesh 2,000 years ago as Jesus of Nazareth.

According to the UB, a great gulf exists between God and human beings.  But unlike the Bible, which describes this gulf as caused by sin, the UB instead says the gulf is just caused by distance.  We are finite, and God is infinite; therefore, God needs some way to communicate to our finite minds in a way that we can comprehend.  So, each Creator Son represents God to His local universe.  This means that Jesus is not literally God, but is God for “all practical intents and purposes” (5:3.6).  The UB tries to play both sides of the fence when it comes to the deity of Christ.  On the one hand, Jesus loses His uniqueness as the second Person of the Trinity, but instead is relegated to being one of 700,000 Creator Sons who presides over his local universe of 10 million inhabited worlds.  On the other hand, the UB makes several references to Jesus as God, seemingly affirming the doctrine of the Incarnation by referring to Jesus as fully God and
fully man.  The book even calls Jesus the “father incarnate” (182:1.9).  But this only means that Jesus embodies God’s nature; not that He is actually God.  The UB’s take is that Jesus’ primary mission was to reveal the Father to us.  So, he is a revelation of God, but not in fact God.

And speaking of the Trinity, the UB teaches this doctrine, but Jesus is not directly a part of it.  The Paradise Trinity consists of the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Infinite Spirit.  Jesus is not the Eternal Son, but is an offspring of the Paradise Trinity, as are all the Creator Sons.  So, when we pray to or worship Jesus, we are not addressing God directly, but only addressing Him through Jesus, who is God’s personal representation in our local universe.

Let me stop here and apologize to my readers, who may be confused by all this convoluted gobbledygook.  You see, I found the UB fascinating intellectually.  I had a very curious and speculative mind, so the UB appealed to my intellect.  Unfortunately, it did nothing for my heart, which is why I eventually rejected it.

Part III of the UB is called the History of Urantia, and claims to reveal a host of lost facts about our planetary evolution and ancient past.  The UB claims that planetary evolution is guided by revelation, and this revelation occurs in periodic times or epochs, and is thus referred to as epochal revelation.  The UB claims to be the fifth Epochal Revelation, and is the only one in book form.  The other four revelations have come to us in the form of various divine beings.  Working backwards, the fourth Epochal Revelation was Jesus, the third was Melchizedek, the second was Adam and Eve, and the first was a being called the Planetary Prince.  An Epochal Revelation’s purpose is to guide evolution in a Godward direction, and sometimes to give it a big boost, as in the case of Jesus.

According to the UB, the first Epochal Revelation occurred 500,000 years ago, apparently half a million years after the first human beings came on the scene.  This aid to evolution came in the form of a being called the Planetary Prince, who came here with a staff of 100.  The Planetary Prince was a superhuman being from another world whose mission was to uplift the primitive tribes and give them some semblance of culture and civilization.  But our Prince, a fellow named Caligastia, decided to follow his bosses, Satan and Lucifer, in their rebellion against the rule of Our Creator son Michael some 200,000 years ago.  This rebellion set our evolution back a bit, but with the aid of various spiritual influences, we can get back on track.  And by the way, just for your information, Lucifer and Satan are currently doing time on detention worlds, a kind of universe holding pen, until their cases are adjudicated and they can be wiped out once and
for all.  In the meantime, Caligastia and his pal Daligastia are still free to roam the Earth, but they don’t have much power unless you really want them to enter your mind.

The second Epochal Revelation was Adam and Eve.  But, as should be obvious by now, Adam and Eve were not the first people on Earth.  That distinction belongs to Andon and Fonta, a pair of twins born nearly one million years ago to parents who were pre-human hominids.  No, Adam and Eve, in the UB’s telling, were a couple of beings called Material Sons and Daughters.  They too, came from another world (about 38,000 years ago), and their mission was primarily biological.  Get this, Adam and Eve were eight feet tall, had violet skin, and had halos around their bodies.  Their mission was to procreate; to produce a million children, and these children were supposed to intermarry with the native stock and produce a genetically superior hybrid.  I kid you not–it’s like the gods coming down from Mount Olympus.

And it gets even better.  Some races got more of Adam’s blood than others; in other words, the children of Adam and Eve preferred certain ethnic groups to others.  Yep, you guessed it–there are definitely racial undertones to this thing.  The Nordic white races received a considerable share of the Adamic blood, whereas the African Negroid race received very little (if any) of the Adamic stock.

But this, too, turned into an evolutionary setback.  It seems that Adam and Eve were getting frustrated with the progress they were making, so Eve decided to take a shortcut and mate with a regular human.  Well, that wasn’t part of the plan.  The UB authors make a big deal about evolution needing to take its course, and oppose any attempts to circumvent the process.  So because of their “default,” Adam and Eve became mortal and were deprived of the sustenance that came from the Tree of Life, a shrub that essentially gave them immortality while they were here.  In fact, they were supposed to stay here indefinitely, and build a base of operations from the Garden of Eden, which apparently was somewhere in the Middle East.  So Adam and Eve did not get to have as many children as they were supposed to, and the blending of the violet race with the natives didn’t go as planned.  So we didn’t get the full benefit of the Adamic infusion,
which is another reason why our planet is backward and is apparently quarantined from the other planets in our local system.  We’re one of 37 such worlds that are isolated from the rest.

The third Epochal Revelation was Melchizedek, another superhuman being who essentially came to teach monotheism to a primitive, polytheistic world.  Of course, his first student was Abraham (cf. Genesis 14:18), but he also sent missionaries out to other tribes to spread the Gospel of one God.  But despite his influence with Abraham, the teachings of Melchizedek became diluted by the surrounding pagan cultures and were “lost” to history (cf. 93:7.3-4).

And finally, we get to Jesus, the fourth Epochal Revelation and the subject of the last 800 pages of the UB.

The gospel according to the UB

And just who is Jesus, according to the UB, and just what is his Gospel?  Well, as indicated above, Jesus is our Creator Son, the sovereign ruler of 10 million worlds in our local universe.  Apparently, before he came to Earth, he was just Michael, and not Jesus.  While he ruled in the name of God the Father and perfectly represented God to the creatures of his domain, he needed some additional experience.  In other words, he needed to know what it was really like to be one of his own creatures.  This alone should dispel any claims that the UB supports the deity of Christ.  If Jesus is truly God, then He is omniscient, and would already have direct insight into the minds of His creatures.  But the UB takes a more nuanced view of omniscience.  The UB says, “Never on all the worlds of this universe, in the life of any one mortal, did God ever become such a living reality as in the human experience of Jesus of Nazareth” (196:0.6).

The book’s view is that there are two types of omniscience, existential and experiential.  The two levels of knowing might be analogous to reading a novel and identifying with the characters, versus actually being one of those characters and living in their skin.  So, apparently Jesus had to gain that second type of omniscience in order to earn the full sovereignty of his universe.  Jesus also came to reveal to us the true nature of God the Father.  Because you see, we’ve got God all wrong, say the UB authors.  We think God is wrathful, vengeful, or angry, which he never is; and apparently our present-day Christian faith has been contaminated with erroneous concepts of God, derived from the primitive religion of early backward peoples.

Our primitive ancestors just didn’t get it.  They didn’t understand science, or causality, so when they went through a thunderstorm or an earthquake, they assumed it was God shaking the Earth in His wrath.  And this whole blood sacrifice thing has got to go.  The UB rails against the cardinal tenet of the Christian Gospel, that Jesus died as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins and shed His blood so that we could be saved.  The UB calls this doctrine “repulsive,” “barbarous,” and “unworthy of an enlightened age of science and truth” (4:5.4).  The UB’s God is a loving Father, and only a loving Father; not a king or a judge.

While the UB does have a concept of God’s justice, God’s love transcends that justice, because “The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature” (188:4.8).  In the UB, any sense of God’s justice is basically impersonal.  In other words, if we break God’s laws, we may suffer the consequences, the same way a person might break both legs by jumping out a window and thinking they can defy the law of gravity.  But God does not take a personal stand against injustice; he may grieve over it, but he certainly doesn’t get angry about it or take action against it.  In fact, the authors go so far as to say that God doesn’t hate sin.  You see, “towards sin God strikes no personal attitude (2:5.1),” for “sin is not a person” and “persons can only love and hate other persons” (2:6.8).  So Jesus came to correct our understanding of God so we can grow up and get over our childish views of Him.  But
before I get into the UB’s understanding of the Gospel, I’ll just give a little more background on Jesus as he is portrayed in the UB’s pages.

The UB claims to give us an extended and detailed biography of Jesus, including the so-called “missing years,” the events of his life between the ages of 12 and 30, which are absent from the Bible.  The authors tell us that Jesus was born naturally, and was not the product of a virgin birth.  He was also the eldest of nine children, and had to assume the headship of his family after Joseph died in a construction accident when Jesus was 14.  Jesus was their brother, but also had to play the role of their father.  I assume the authors were trying to make a point with this story, stating that Jesus is both our father and our brother; our brother because he assumed our nature and likeness so he could identify with us, and our father because he created us and serves as a surrogate God the Father for everyone in his local universe.

And this reminds me of something else.  According to the UB, God is not actually personally present here on Earth or in time and space.  He is only present indirectly through Jesus and the other Creator Sons.  He is personally present only on Paradise and in a perfect universe of one billion worlds called Havona.  But God is present to us in the form of fragments of Himself called Thought Adjusters.  The Thought Adjuster, a central concept in the UB, is a fragment of God that indwells the mind of every person who is capable of making moral decisions.  After our first moral decision, at about age 5 or 6, a person is indwelled by a Thought Adjuster, a fragment of God that guides a human being through life and in preparation for the next stage of the Ascension Scheme.  At some point in a person’s ascension career, usually after death, they will fuse with their Adjuster, and the two will become one.  But the presence of this Thought Adjuster is
not personal; it is pre-personal, meaning that God does not personally indwell our minds.  He indwells our minds as a pre-personal fragment of Himself, meaning that when we fuse with Him, each fragment of God will get our personality.  As one UB reader put it, God is becoming us.

Okay, back to Jesus.  So after his daddy dies, Jesus works to support his family in various occupations; not only as a carpenter, but as a boat-builder, a caravan driver, and a tutor to the son of an Indian merchant.  The book recounts his alleged travels to Greece, Rome, India, etc.  During this time, Jesus grows increasingly conscious of his mission and his divinity.  Then Jesus begins his public ministry.  While UB readers claim that the enhanced “revelation” of Jesus only builds on, and does not contradict Scripture, the truth is that it differs from Scripture in significant ways and is essentially a re-write of the Gospels.  While most of the miracles remain intact, a couple of them are missing.  In the UB’s account, Jesus didn’t walk on water; this was just a dream that Peter had while he fell asleep in the boat.  Also missing is Jesus casting demons into a herd of swine.

While the book doesn’t deny the fact of the cross, it denies its necessity for our salvation.  Instead, the cross is simply an opportunity for Jesus to overcome evil with good, and extend love and forgiveness to his enemies.  Jesus doesn’t rise in a physical body; instead, he is raised in a form the authors call morontia, a form that we will supposedly take in the next world after death.  The biblical account of Thomas touching Jesus and putting his hands in His sides is rewritten to conform to this alternate narrative.

So, again, what is the Gospel according to the UB?  Well, the UB claims that the Gospel that is present-day Christianity is not the actual Gospel of Jesus, but a distorted hybrid of truth and error that comes mostly from Peter and Paul, and not from Jesus himself.  You see, Jesus did not come to rescue us from the consequences of sin, to bring us salvation or to make us God’s children so we can join God’s family.  No, Jesus came to teach us that we are already God’s children.  We don’t need salvation and certainly not redemption, because salvation is basically a given; it’s built into the mechanism of creation.  We don’t have to become God’s children; we already are God’s children.

In fact, the UB deliberately alters John 1:12.  The biblical text says, “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God.”  But the term “become” is replaced in the UB.  Instead, the passage reads as follows: “As many as received him, to them gave he the power to recognize that they are the sons of God” (40:6.2).  So, all we need to do is wake up to our natural identity as God’s children.  No act of redemption, forgiveness or deliverance is required to make us God’s children; we just need some corrective education.  While the UB authors say it’s okay to call Jesus our Savior, the Jesus they portray is really more like a teacher than a Savior.  In fact, the UB says in at least two places that we should simply take our salvation for granted (103:9.5; 188:4.9).

In reality, the UB is simply parroting a concept popular with liberal Protestant theologians from the early 20th century.  The acronym for this concept is FOGBOM, which stands for the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.  In even simpler terms, the Gospel according to this paradigm is: God is our Father, and we are all his Children.  As the old song says, “With God as our Father, brothers all are we.”  If we all treated each other as brothers and sisters, well then we would have peace on Earth.

So, I know it’s long-winded, but that is my summary of most of the teachings of the UB; though I know I’ve left out quite a bit.  I feel I have to give all this background info so that readers of this letter have some idea where I came from theologically, and the kinds of doubts and questions I struggled with.  While most people will not be directly influenced by the UB, these ideas are by no means unique to the book.  In fact, the UB plagiarizes many of its concepts directly from external sources, and even admits to doing so.  So, I hope that what I say in the rest of this letter will help those who are reaching out to people under the sway of these ideas.

Years of Conflict

After my friend told me about the UB, I started attending study-groups at his house, which his dad led.  Except for Christian radio, my only exposure to religion at that point was the dry, ritualistic services I would occasionally attend at my family’s Ukrainian Catholic church.  But this was something entirely different.  I was a bright, analytical kid, and the discussions we had at the study-group were a feast for my intellect.  And people took my ideas and questions seriously.  It was like listening to a bunch of rabbis discuss the Talmud.  But there was still something missing for me in all of this high-minded talk.  I wanted the intimate, personal relationship with God that I heard the preachers talk about on Christian radio.  I wanted to feel God’s presence, to know His warmth, and to experience His intimate embrace.  While the UB spoke of having a relationship with a loving Father God, it didn’t tell me how to get this
relationship.

Eventually, the study-groups felt more and more like an academic exercise, and less and less like spiritual nourishment.  I was living in Rockford, Illinois at the time, but my family ended up moving to Barrington, a Chicago suburb.  Though the UB originated in Chicago, I did not attend any more study groups until a couple of years after I moved.  In the meantime, I was still listening to Christian radio, and I discovered a show called Rock Talk.  The show was hosted by a couple of former rock musicians who had become Christians, and one of them, Roger Mansour, gave his home phone number out on the air.  I used to call him up and argue with him; he and his friend Ronnie would quote the Bible, and I would quote the UB.  I was a stubborn SOB, I tell you.  The discussions would go on for hours.  But at one point, Roger and Ronnie suggested that I look at a book called Seeds of Change by Kerry Livgren.

Kerry was a member of the rock band Kansas and he, too, had been a student of the UB, but had subsequently come to faith in Christ, the Christ of the Bible.  So I got the book from the library, and my mom read me the chapter on the UB.  I was very impressed with his testimony.  Essentially, he articulated what I had always known; the UB spoke to my intellect, but the Gospel as presented in Scripture spoke directly to my heart.  After hearing his testimony, I called my friend Roger, in a place of humility and ready to receive Christ.  He led me in a prayer over the phone and I embraced Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior.  I felt wonderful, and I experienced a peace I had never felt in my entire life.  I remember that night very well; I was even praising God in the shower.  My mom even heard me, but she didn’t know what I was yelling about.  I didn’t feel I could share it with her; it was something very personal, and something I
didn’t think she would understand.

I wish I could say that the road was smooth and free of rocks and thorns after that, but I would be lying if I did.  Quite often, I feel that we in the body of Christ, in our public testimonies, are quick to present an image of a quick and clean conversion, an image that gives the impression that all our struggles are behind us and part of our past.  We like to quote the verse that says, “If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (2 Corinthians 5:17).  After all, this was certainly the way it was presented on the Unshackled radio dramas I listened to.  I can only speak for myself and say that that image was the farthest thing from my personal experience.  Unfortunately, I had no Christian fellowship in my life.  My close friends weren’t Christians, and I had no idea where I could go to church and get fed with good biblical teaching.  So I quickly reverted back to the Urantia
Book.  Of course, attending a public school didn’t help much either.  I was being exposed to Eastern religion, humanistic psychology, and all kinds of other non-biblical or unbiblical philosophies.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s vital for Christians, even young Christians, to understand alternate worldviews, but I had no biblical foundation from which to judge such teachings.  I was sixteen, young, idealistic and impressionable.  And most of all, I was easily led and vulnerable to all kinds of intellectual temptations.  After all, the UB was way more interesting than the Bible; at least at that time.

And the UB told me what I wanted to hear.  It was much more appealing to hear that God was loving and merciful, that there was no Hell, and that God’s wrath was just a figment of primitive imagination.  But the peace I had felt after placing my faith in Christ, the peace that passes all understanding, the peace that comes from being born again, was not with me when I read the UB.  It fed my mind, but left my heart cold.

As a junior in high school, I got involved with a program that was mostly good, but that Satan used to reinforce my budding New Age views.  It was called Operation Snowball, and it was a drug and alcohol prevention program for teenagers.  We attended these retreats called Snowballs, where we basically got a natural high for the weekend.  We got a lot of hugs and warm fuzzies, and bonded with kids our own age as well as some older staff members.  Self-esteem was a big theme of the program, and self-esteem was something I desperately needed.  I had grown up with a lot of verbal abuse, especially from my father.  I was called every name in the book, and frankly, I both hated and feared my dad.  Except for the wonderful peace I felt from being born again, I had very little experience with real unconditional love.  I needed to be told I was special, and worthy of being loved; and I got plenty of that at Operation Snowball.

While there actually were some great Christians on staff there, it was still a secular program.  And I mixed the positive strokes I got there with my evolving UB-centered worldview.  In the middle of my junior year, I did find another UB study-group in my area, and started attending.  Again, my experience was the same; a great intellectual exercise, but nothing to feed my soul.  I remember asking the fellow who drove me to the meetings if he had a personal relationship with God, and he really didn’t know how to answer me.  But I still craved the Father’s love, especially since my own father was so lacking in that area.

For years I went back and forth between the UB and biblical Christianity.  This inner conflict intensified in college, where I came in regular contact with some honest-to-goodness Christians, people who really loved me and wanted to see me thrive in the Lord.  They spent time with me, prayed with me, and spoke openly about God’s work in their lives.  It was a far cry from the sterile intellectual fare I was getting at UB study groups.  So, in January 1989, I rededicated my life to the Lord, and again felt His presence in a deep and powerful way.  In fact, for a couple of weeks I didn’t sleep much; I was high on the Holy Spirit.  I remember telling people that I had lost my mind and given it to Jesus.

But this blissful honeymoon didn’t last.  You see, I am a person with a hard head and a soft heart.  While my soft heart was being fed and nourished on the love of God and the love of other Christians, my hard head was asking challenging questions, questions that many of my Christian friends couldn’t answer; at least, not to my satisfaction.  Many of these questions were objections to certain Christian doctrines, objections raised in the Urantia Book.  For example, how can God be both loving and wrathful?  Isn’t this a contradiction?  Why did Jesus have to die in order for us to be forgiven?  Isn’t forgiveness an inherent part of God’s nature?  Isn’t the God revealed in Christ different from the angry, judgmental God of the OT?  Some Christians tried their best, God bless them, to answer my questions, but they often gave me what I call cookie-cutter answers.

For example, when I raised questions about Christ’s death on the cross for our sins, I was simply told that God was loving and forgiving, but He was also holy and just, and that He could not look upon sin. So He needed a solution that would reconcile both His love and His justice.  Some people, like British theologian John Stott, even went so far to suggest that God had a problem with forgiveness.  Wow, I thought, we were the ones that had problems forgiving, not God.  Besides, isn’t God perfect, does He really have problems?

The standard defense for the atonement doctrine didn’t work for me.  I just shot back by raising the UB objection, which is that God is not a divided personality, one of justice and one of mercy (cf. 2:6.6).  The UB claims that the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is based on the premise that God’s love and His righteousness are incompatible, and need to be reconciled.  Frankly, the UB’s arguments seemed logical, compelling, and persuasive; and no one seemed able to refute them.  But as usual, they gave me neither peace of mind nor assurance of salvation.  I wanted desperately to believe in the Urantia Book; I wanted to believe that God was loving and kind, and not angry or wrathful.  After all, I had grown up with an angry, verbally abusive father, and frankly, some of the supposedly biblical teaching I was getting in church didn’t help at all.

Going back to the Atonement, I was often told human beings were dirt; that we were detestable in God’s sight, and if it wasn’t for Jesus’ blood covering us, God would want nothing to do with us.  While I currently embrace the Gospel as it is revealed in Scripture, I must confess that many of the presentations I heard were at  best unsatisfying, and at worst, just plain wrong.  I will return to this point, because it is vitally important.

I attended Northwestern University, a secular school with a decidedly liberal bias, and I dabbled in anything and everything; everything that is, except the Word of God.  I read philosophy, theology, psychology, you name it; all of which were interesting, but much of which I’ve had to unlearn.  But even amidst the smorgasbord of isms and ideologies, God was still forming me into the person I am today.  For one thing, I rebelled against the politically correct atmosphere on campus and became a staunch conservative, or more correctly a classical liberal, which by today’s standards, means I’m about 90 degrees to the right of the average college professor.  And even while I was dabbling in Urantia, Carl Jung, humanistic psychology, etc, my sympathies were still Christian.  I would defend Christianity when it came up in conversation, and still hung out at Intervarsity Christian Fellowship meetings.  I even tried to harmonize my Christian
beliefs with the Urantia Book, and led pro-Christian workshops at UB conferences.

And speaking of UB conferences, I attended my first one in the summer of 1987, and I was hooked.  It seemed I had finally found UB readers who were not just intellectual students of the book.  In their defense, I have to concede that the conference presenters really did their best to give us a truly spiritual experience, as they understood it.  We worshipped together, prayed together, and shared our spiritual experiences.

For much of my life, I had been looking for a new family to make up for what was lacking in my biological home.  For the first time in my life, I thought I had met people who I clicked with intellectually, but also bonded with spiritually and emotionally.  They seemed like the most loving people I had ever met in my life.  I really felt they loved me unconditionally.

I wish I could say the same was always true of my Christian friends, but I can’t.  For many years, I led a double life–I would hang out with my Christian brothers and sisters, while secretly attending UB study groups.  I didn’t feel I could tell them about my involvement in Urantia, for fear of being judged or rejected.  I was afraid they would tell me I wasn’t really a Christian, since I was rejecting the doctrine of Christ’s death for our salvation which is, frankly, the heart of the Gospel.  But I know now that it was Christ’s death for my sins, and not my belief in it, that is the basis of my salvation.  I will continue to drive home this point, because I think it makes all the difference in how we present the Gospel.

So for years I went back and forth like a seesaw, with my head in the Urantia Book and my heart drawn strongly toward the Christ of Scripture.  That conflict finally came to a close in November of 1996, when I was 26 years old.

Rejecting the UB, Round One

After graduating from college, I decided I’d had enough of school and wanted nothing to do with it as long as I lived.  I had recently discovered talk-radio, which was a perfect fit for me.  It combined my love of radio with a rich life of the mind, which I’ve always enjoyed.  I could talk to authors, speakers, and politicians, all the while indulging my controversial, obnoxious, adolescent side.  I loved it, and I’ve been pursuing a career in talk-radio ever since.

In 1993, I interned with a guy named Dick Staub, who hosted a local Christian radio show called Chicago Talks, which eventually became syndicated as the Dick Staub show.  Dick was unlike any other Christian talk-show host I’d ever heard.  He interviewed secular as well as Christian guests, and was deeply familiar with culture as a whole, not just the Christian subculture.

I was a regular listener, and caller.  One day I casually mentioned to him that I wanted to go into radio, and he invited me to come have coffee with him and talk about it.  And that was the beginning of my internship, and my radio career.  Dick was one of the few Christians I felt safe enough to talk to about my interest in the UB, and while he disagreed, he always welcomed my ideas and never excluded me from fellowship.

After my internship, I got involved with a ministry called the Christian Connection, run by my dear friend Steve Carr.  He had a radio show of the same name, and I eventually became co-host and producer.  That lasted for two years, though the ministry was taken over by someone else, and the show became a kind of secular/Christian hybrid called Destiny, which was also the name of Steve’s new company.

It was the mid-1990s, Newt Gingrich was House Speaker, and conservatives were riding high.  I started reading a lot of conservative publications, one of my favorites being Bill Kristol’s new magazine, the Weekly Standard.  In November of 1996, I was reading an article in the Standard by a budding young journalist named Tucker Carlson.  Titled “Eugenics, American Style,” the article described the pressure many doctors put on women to abort their Down’s Syndrome Children.  I had always been pro-life, and was involved in a lot of pro-life efforts, even to the point of being arrested three times with Operation Rescue.

And for your information, the Urantia Book strongly advocates eugenics.  What exactly is eugenics?  The term is similar to euthanasia, the latter meaning “good death,” while eugenics means “good birth.”  In practice, eugenics was an ideology that advocated restricting the reproduction of the “unfit,” with the goal of “race improvement.”  Its worst result was of course Hitler, but even the so-called milder approaches took the form of coercive sterilization laws implemented in several American states during the first half of the 20th century, at least prior to WWII.  Ironically, Hitler looked to America as inspiration for his own very similar policies.  It’s probably no surprise that the UB supports eugenics, since the concept was fairly well-accepted among intellectuals during the time of the UB’s writing.  Here are several examples of UB quotes that endorse eugenics.

“These six evolutionary races are destined to be blended and exalted by amalgamation with the progeny of the Adamic uplifters. But before these peoples are blended, the inferior and unfit are largely eliminated. The Planetary Prince and the Material Son, with other suitable planetary authorities, pass upon the fitness of the reproducing strains. The difficulty of executing such a radical program on Urantia consists in the absence of competent judges to pass upon the biologic fitness or unfitness of the individuals of your world races. Notwithstanding this obstacle, it seems that you ought to be able to agree upon the biologic disfellowshiping of your more markedly unfit, defective, degenerate, and antisocial stocks.” (51:4.8)

“The early development of a normal world is greatly helped by the plan of promoting the increase of the higher types of mortals with proportionate curtailment of the lower. And it is the failure of your early peoples to thus discriminate between these types that accounts for the presence of so many defective and degenerate individuals among the present-day Urantia races.” (52:2.9)

“. . . most worlds seriously address themselves to the tasks of race purification, something which the Urantia peoples have not even yet seriously undertaken. . . . It is the false sentiment of your partially perfected civilizations that fosters, protects, and perpetuates the hopelessly defective strains of evolutionary human stocks.” (52:2.10,11)

“It is neither tenderness nor altruism to bestow futile sympathy upon degenerated human beings, unsalvable abnormal and inferior mortals. There exist on even the most normal of the evolutionary worlds sufficient differences between individuals and between numerous social groups to provide for the full exercise of all those noble traits of altruistic sentiment and unselfish mortal ministry without perpetuating the socially unfit and the morally degenerate strains of evolving humanity.” (52:2.12)

There are many other similar passages, and I was never comfortable with them.  Essentially, I had to rationalize them, which I did for several years.  But Tucker Carlson’s article was a huge reality-check.  I had a visceral reaction to it.  I could no longer pretend that there was a humane approach to eugenics; I just couldn’t accept it in good conscience.  And I could no longer embrace a book that supported it.  So I ditched the UB, for 10 years.

My 10-Year Sabbatical

I had been reading a lot of Catholic material at the time, and was deeply impressed by the Church’s blending of faith and reason.  It was refreshing to hear arguments backing up the doctrines of the faith, rather than simply being told I had to believe something simply because it was in the Bible.  I wanted to know why the bible was true, and why the resurrection of the body was important, etc.

Well, that was fulfilling for a while; I was attending a small, very loving Catholic community at a retreat center about an hour from my house.  They held masses outside in the summer, and had a warm family atmosphere.  I was happy there, but I was not comfortable with the Catholic position on salvation.  While most objections to Catholicism involve the role of Mary or the function of the priesthood, those did not concern me so much.  I was more bothered by the Church’s teaching that our works contribute to our salvation, and we could lose it.  Speaking about assurance was considered the sin of presumption.  While I realize that many Catholics are truly saved, it is in spite of these Church teachings.

So I left Catholicism in 2000, and dabbled in various churches, including an Anglican one.  Finally, in 2005, I thought I had found a church home.  I’d rather not name the church, except to say that it was a Bible-believing congregation, and its theology was essentially evangelical.  For a while, I was very happy there.  The worship was great, the pastor was bold, and they seemed to have a deep sense of community.  But before I share my church experience, let me backtrack just a bit.

A few years earlier, in 2003, I sought therapy with a Christian counselor over some issues that came up from my childhood.  The memories were deeply painful, and I was kind of a basket case for about 18 months.  In fact, I was probably technically in a depression, though it was a functional depression.  I still worked and coped, but most of my friends knew I was struggling, because I let them know all about my pain.  Some of them didn’t get it, but most were very supportive.  The good news is that during that time I got very close to the Lord.  I practiced something called listening prayer, which involved writing my prayers down on paper and listening to God’s responses as He spoke to my heart.  I still practice this prayer technique to this day.

I came to know God in a very intimate way.  I always knew I could come to God, but God also showed me that I could come to Him in my pain, and that He would be there to comfort me.  It is one thing to know that intellectually, but it’s quite another to say, as I did to my friend Dan Lapinski, “There comes a time when only the Lord can comfort you.”  I mention this because the God I experienced, whom the Bible calls the “God of all comfort” (2 Corinthians 1:3), was not always the God I was hearing about in church.  Let me explain.

I don’t want to turn this into a church-bashing session, but I need to take a stand against many aspects of what is called “church culture.”  There are many good things about church culture, but there are also many things that are shallow at best, and abusive at worst.  And some of church culture is just not biblical.  I am not referring here to things like false teaching or liberal theology, but more subtle things.  For example, many evangelical churches, while otherwise orthodox, will sometimes take Scripture out of context to justify some aspect of church culture, or some man-made rule they wish to apply to their members.  Unfortunately, this was often the case at the church I started attending in 2005.

But before I find fault, let me say one thing in the church’s defense.  Many of its members were former gang members, drug dealers, sex addicts, etc, and it’s possible that the pastor may have felt he needed to be a bit of a drill sergeant at times.  This drill sergeant mentality also extended to some small group meetings, where the concept of accountability was sometimes wielded like a club.  Don’t get me wrong; accountability is a good thing, but like sponsorship in a 12-step program, it should be voluntary, not imposed coercively.

I don’t mean to condemn the good Christian people at this church; in most cases, they were probably just doing what they thought was best.  But they were bathed in a church culture that embraced certain assumptions, assumptions that were for the most part unconscious, and left unexamined.

On the positive side, there was a great teaching pastor at this church, who had this wonderful way of speaking to both my head and my heart.  I fondly remember our lunch meetings, where we discussed all kinds of theological issues.  Finally, here was a church leader who honored my questions and appreciated my intellectual curiosity.

But I was still affected by the toxic elements of the church, and in a pretty negative way.  I don’t blame the church, I blame Satan, who used my negative experience to tempt me away from Scripture and back toward the seductive siren song of the Urantia Book.

Back to My Mistress

While in college, and still on the fence about my faith, an honest evangelist I know spoke the truth to me in love and said, “Jesus is your wife, the Urantia Book is your mistress.”  At the time I found this statement offensive, obnoxious and patronizing, but I now realize it was 100 percent accurate.  When I wasn’t getting my needs met in the body of Christ, I would wander off to the other side of the fence to see if the grass might be greener there.  And I did it again in 2006.  Here’s how it happened.

I was sitting in church one Sunday morning, and the pastor was delivering a sermon in his typically confrontational preaching style.  In fact, he started yelling at the congregation; at least that’s how it came across to me.  He was referring to the verse in Jeremiah 17, which reads, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked” (v. 9; KJV).

“Our hearts are wicked,” he screamed.  I resisted his message, for several reasons.  First, he was talking to believers, and even if it’s true that our hearts start out wicked, can’t Jesus change our hearts?  Isn’t that the whole point of our growth in Christ?

And secondly, it just didn’t make sense to me.  After all, I know a lot of people who don’t have wicked hearts; and I don’t think my heart is wicked.  But I didn’t feel like there was anyone I could talk to at the church who would hear my concerns and validate them.  So I started looking for a more reasonable view of human nature.  And I got sucked right back into the UB.

I started by re-reading the book’s last section on the life and teachings of Jesus, and believe me, I got answers.  They were the wrong answers, but I still got answers.  Note to pastors and church leaders: If people don’t get satisfying answers in church, they’ll go somewhere else to get them.  If they don’t get their needs met in the body of Christ, they’ll try anything–drugs, sex, worldly success or, in my case, a cult.  Again, I don’t mean to bash the church here, I’m just expressing my frustration, and I know I’m not the only one who’s frustrated.  Countless millions of Americans are leaving church, including Christians.  See Julia Duin’s 2008 book, Quitting Church.

Yes, the UB did give me what I thought was a more reasonable view of human nature.  One thing the UB does is rewrite various biblical passages to conform to its worldview.  At the time, I thought these revisions were necessary; I saw them as corrections to the flawed biblical record.  I’ll cite a few examples.

Let’s go back to the verse that troubled me.  In the UB, when Jesus quotes the verse in Jeremiah, he says “the human heart is deceitful above all things and sometimes even desperately wicked” (143:2.5).  The term “sometimes” seems to change the meaning of the passage, implying that only some people are desperately wicked, but not all people.  In another spot (145:2.6), Jesus allegedly says “oftentimes,” but the point is still the same; a wicked heart cannot be ascribed to all human beings.

And this resonated with me; it didn’t make sense for me to view all people, including my good friends, as having wicked hearts.  And besides, I rationalized, the Bible needs to be corrected and modified; it’s not the word of God, but the word of men who recorded their particular understanding of God.

Another verse that the UB rewrites is the one where Jesus says: “If you, then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!” (Matthew 7:11)  Again, the UB softens the tone of this passage by saying “If you, then, being mortal and finite . . .” as opposed to “being evil.”  This kinder, gentler version appealed to me, and smoothed my fragile ego, which didn’t want to be ruffled by such harsh words.

I also saw these revisions as a justifiable attack on original sin, which the UB flatly rejects.  According to the UB, we are not born sinful, just imperfect; it is our free will which makes some people more sinful than others.  In the UB’s worldview, there was no “fall of man,” as described in Scripture; God simply created us imperfect on purpose so we could grow.  By the way, there are biblical answers to these concerns, which I will provide later in the body of this letter.

Well, I was hooked, at least my intellect was.  I went running into the arms of Mistress Urantia and had a rather intense fling.  And I really got involved; I went back to study groups and started giving presentations again at UB conferences.  And In 2008, I even started an online UB-related radio show called the Cosmic Citizen, which I hosted with another person who had a prominent leadership position in the UB community.  This went on for about two years, until I discovered something in the UB that caused me to renounce it forever, with no intention of ever going back.

My Return to the Lord

Before I begin this section, I need to make a few points.  Upon returning to the UB for the second time, I wrote a letter, similar to this one, though much shorter, intended for the UB community.  In it I claimed that I had “come home” to the UB after a 10-year hiatus.  I point this out because some people, especially UB readers, may view me as a kind of religious flake, a person who lacks consistency and whose sincerity can’t be trusted.  Well, I may be a flake, but I know I’m God’s flake, and Jesus died for all my inconsistencies.  It’s not about my faithfulness; it’s about His faithfulness to me.  The Lord’s grace is what counts; and it counts a lot more than my own fragile and weak faith.  Praise God that He has never strayed from me, even though I’ve strayed away numerous times.

I’m also glad I have Christian brothers and sisters I can go to when I have doubts and struggles.  If I ever get tempted to go back to the UB, I can confess my doubts to them and they will provide me with real answers, or point me to places where I can get them.  But most of all, I treasure their prayers and encouragement.

Secondly, even though I got intensely involved in the UB community, I was still a Christian at heart.  At the time, I thought I could have one foot in each camp; many UB readers do just that.  They read the UB, while attending church, synagogue, mosque or temple, and try to inject UB teachings into the mix.  They call it bootlegging; they don’t mention the UB, they just plant little seeds.  I, too, was involved in this kind of stealth activity; most of my friends didn’t know I was leading a double life.  I called myself a Christian, and in my heart, I really was.  Some UB readers have an angry and hostile attitude toward Christianity, and I was never comfortable with this.  I would defend Christianity and conservative Christians when the topic came up in conversation.  Of course, I now realize that Christianity is completely incompatible with the UB, but my heart was loyal to Christianity, even though my mind was embracing heresy.

As I said earlier, I was intensely involved in the Urantia movement, even to the point of endorsing the UB publicly on internet radio.  But things changed very suddenly in March of this year.  At that time, Congress was ramming Obama’s health-care bill down America’s throat, and I was not happy about it.  I was always politically conservative, and even joined an online group for conservative UB readers.

Well, when the healthcare bill passed the House, I was very upset; I might even say depressed.  But the dry, sterile Urantia Book didn’t give me any peace.  What gave me peace was thinking about how Jesus had paid the price for my sins and had given me eternal life.  I needed something certain I could cling to.  The abstract ideas in the UB just didn’t cut it.  But thinking about Jesus, the real Jesus of Scripture, was the only comfort I could find.

I was very disheartened, and I talked to some UB readers about my concerns.  I really was afraid America was on the road to a totalitarian socialist Hell, or at the very least, a soft European-style despotism.  Ironically, one person suggested that I read a UB paper that contained the smoking gun that would end my love affair with this false teaching once and for all.  The paper is called “Sin, Sacrifice and Atonement,” and the gist of it is that Christian teachings about original sin and substitutionary atonement are just relics of ancient pagan superstitions which held that the gods could only be appeased by the sight of blood.  An obscure passage in this paper led me to an obscure passage in Scripture, and I began to do some investigative work.

It should be noted that I had accepted, for a long time, that the UB wasn’t perfect.  It didn’t claim to be infallible, and even admitted to using human sources.  So I was willing to accept errors, oversights, and a few mistakes here and there.  But what I found here was more than that; it was an overt misrepresentation of Scripture.  In other words, it was an act of deception, a lie.  In order to understand the nature of this deception, it is necessary to look at two passages of Scripture.

The first is 1 Kings 16:34.  In this passage, we are told of a king who rebuilt Jericho.  “In his days Hiel the Bethelite built Jericho; he laid its foundations with the loss of Abiram his first-born, and set up its gates with the loss of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the Lord, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.”  Here we are told that King Hiel built Jericho, and lost his two sons in the process.  We are also told that this was “according to the Word of the Lord which He spoke by Joshua son of Nun.”  And just what was this word of the Lord that Joshua spoke?

The answer is in Joshua; specifically, Joshua 6:26.  In this verse, Joshua speaks prophetically saying, “Cursed before the Lord is the man who rises up and builds this city Jericho; with the loss of his first-born he shall lay its foundation, and with the loss of his youngest son he shall set up its gates.”  So, the curse of God upon the man who builds Jericho was fulfilled in 1 Kings 16:34.  Why would God curse a man who tries to rebuild Jericho?  Because God gave Jericho into the hands of the Israelites as a gift when He brought down the walls.  The Jews did not take Jericho from the Canaanites by their own power; rather, God gave it to them by His power and His grace, its ruins forever serving as evidence of God’s judgment on the evil Canaanites.  God had conquered the land of Canaan and had given it to the Israelites as a gift.  Rebuilding Jericho was a slap in the face to God.

Now let’s look at how the UB distorts this passage for its own purposes.  In Paper 89, titled “Sin, Sacrifice and Atonement,” the UB rehashes a lot of 1930s anthropology in its review of the history of blood sacrifice, both animal and human.  In Section, 6, paragraphs 5 and 6, the UB discusses an ancient practice called a foundation sacrifice.  The UB rightly points out that foundation sacrifices were commonly performed at the erection of new buildings, and that these sacrifices were often human, and even included putting slaves alive into city walls.

In Section 6, paragraph 6, the UB records the incident with King Hiel and the loss of his two sons while rebuilding Jericho.  The book claims that Hiel deliberately sacrificed both his sons, one in the foundations, and the other in the city gates:

“A petty king in Palestine, in building the walls of Jericho, ‘laid the foundation thereof in Abiram, his first-born, and set up the gates thereof in his youngest son, Segub.’ At that late date, not only did this father put two of his sons alive in the foundation holes of the city’s gates, but his action is also recorded as being ‘according to the word of the Lord.’” (89:6.6)

The UB states that the Scripture record of this event indicated that this was done “according to the Word of the Lord.”  Note the glaring omission in this passage.  There is no mention of the “word of the Lord, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun.”  Here the UB is implying two things.  One, that the loss of Hiel’s two sons was actually an example of a foundation sacrifice, and two, that the Hebrew Bible gives divine sanction to this sacrifice, stating that it was done “according to the Word of the Lord.”  So, not only did Hiel offer his two sons as foundation sacrifices, but according to the UB, the Old Testament writer has God endorsing it.

As I’ve shown above, there is no evidence that this passage refers to a human sacrifice–none at all.  All the evidence points to Joshua’s prophecy being fulfilled, and Hiel being cursed with the loss of his two sons.  Who knows how they died; they could have died in construction accidents, or from some sort of plague or disease.  But there is no evidence that this is a human sacrifice.  And note that the UB has to leave out the part which refers to Joshua in order to mislead its readers.

Even while immersed in the UB, I used to complain about the plague of biblical illiteracy among its readers.  I would harp constantly that the UB quoted the Bible more than any other book, and that in order to understand the UB you need to understand the Bible.  Well, interestingly, there is a book called the Paramony, which gives UB readers all the relevant Bible passages that parallel those in the UB.  The problem is that most UB readers are so ignorant of Scripture and so entranced by the UB that looking up these passages alone won’t necessarily do them much good if they don’t know the context.  Thanks to my good friend Don Veinot of Midwest Christian Outreach, I was able to discover the true meaning of this passage.  It was he who led me to Joshua 6:26, where I found the context of this passage.  At that point, I was already having second thoughts about the UB, and I longed for the peace I knew as a born-again believer.  I had
gone back and forth before, but this was the final nail in the coffin for the UB.  To me, this distortion of Scripture could only be deliberate, not just an oversight.

Of course, I asked some UB readers I respected for a response to my concerns, but I got no satisfactory answers.  To most of them, my objections were just a quibble, and really didn’t mean anything.  One person, considered a foremost authority on the UB, reminded me that much of Scripture was distorted.  You see, the UB claims that the OT was rewritten during the Babylonian captivity as a propaganda tool to encourage a demoralized Jewish people.  So, the Bible apparently idealizes Israel’s history, and whitewashes Israel’s past, and might deny that the Jews practiced any kind of human sacrifice.  But there are two problems with this explanation.  First, where is the evidence that the priests in Babylon rewrote the OT?  I have yet to find any scholarly evidence to support this claim.  Was I supposed to just accept it at face value as “revelation,” just because it was in the Urantia Book?

And secondly, the Bible doesn’t idealize Israel’s history at all; the Scripture record is rife with accounts of Israel’s sin, including the practice of human sacrifice.  And by the way, this practice is always condemned in Scripture, and occurs in Israel only when the Jews whore after the pagan gods of the surrounding peoples; it is never condoned by the God of Scripture.  Even while a UB reader, I often had doubts about the authenticity of the text, and was frequently drawn back to the Bible.  In most instances, I was able to go to other UB readers for reassurances, and my doubts would be soothed for a while.  But in this case, my fellow UB readers couldn’t provide me with any credible answers.  And with that, I finally let go of the Urantia Book and came back home to the Lord.

The Prodigal Returns

I was overjoyed.  I felt the same kind of peace that I felt at fifteen, when my friend Roger led me in a prayer to receive Christ.  I knew I had truly come back home.  I call this section the Prodigal Returns because that’s really how I view myself, and it says something about my view of salvation.  I was still a child of God; I never stopped being a child of God; I had just strayed off the path a bit.  I never lost my salvation.  To those who might question the sincerity of my faith in Christ, I can only say that I know the Father never let me go.  I was always His, which is why I felt so much turmoil as I tried to embrace a belief system I didn’t really accept.  I tried talking myself into believing it was true; I wanted it to be true, but deep down, I knew it wasn’t.  The joy I felt was indescribable.  As one friend of mine put it, I was flying through clean air.

One important thing I forgot to mention.  I am totally blind and read Braille very efficiently.  I had even paid for my own personal Braille copy of the Urantia Book.  But when I realized that I could never embrace the book again, it was like the veil had been removed from my eyes.  I was not only blind physically, I had been blinded spiritually.  I knew then that the Urantia Book was demonic, and I had to get rid of it.  Its presence in my house was the presence of evil.  I was going to donate the book to a library for the blind in California, but when my friend Dan boxed it up for me, the post office wouldn’t take it.  It weighed too much.  Braille books are divided into volumes, and we put all 38 volumes into one box.  So, we took the Urantia Book and threw it in the dumpster, where trash belongs.

I am so glad to be rid of it; the truth is the Urantia Book was an albatross around my neck.  I felt I had to read it in secret, and as I’ve said numerous times, it did nothing for my peace of mind.
I think one of the biggest reasons the UB was so unsatisfying is its failure to address a basic reality of the human condition; namely, our fundamental chronic brokenness.  As I’ve pointed out earlier, the UB simply assumes that we are children of God; we don’t have to become God’s children, we just need to recognize that we already are.  It says that our salvation should be taken for granted.  There are a couple of problems with this view.  First, how do I know that I’m saved?  Remember that the UB rejects Christ’s death as necessary for our salvation.  So, in the absence of His sacrifice, where is the objective evidence that I’m saved?  All I can do is assume, or presume, that I’m saved.  But what if I’m wrong?  And, more to the point, what am I depending on for my salvation?  I can’t depend on my own goodness, which of course is not enough to save me, and I can’t even depend on my relationship with God, which
fluctuates like a roller-coaster.  Yesterday I was full of gratitude and immersing myself in God’s Word, but today I’ve been struggling with resentment and frustration.  But thank God for His liberating grace.  Thank God that I can look outside of myself, and outside my own human imperfections, for my eternal security.  When I look to the cross, this is the objective evidence that I’m saved.  I know I’m saved. Why?  Because Jesus saved me.  How do I know?  Because He died for me and paid for my sins so I can be right with God.  He made things right between me and God; he bridged the gap that I could never bridge.  Yes, it really is that simple.  I also never got the sense from the UB that I really need the Lord.

Back to brokenness again.  Christianity teaches that there is something fundamentally wrong with me that only Jesus can fix.  I was born into the world outside of a right relationship with God, and only Jesus can restore that relationship.  That’s why I need a Savior, not just a teacher, or a spiritual counselor, but something much more radial.  I need radical surgery.  I need a new heart–what the Bible calls a heart of flesh, as opposed to a heart of stone.  I am broken, bent, twisted, wounded, damaged goods.  And those are exactly the kind of people Jesus came to die for.  He didn’t come to die for a bunch of good people; as Romans 5 tells us, “Christ died for the ungodly” (5:6).  Who is ungodly?  I am.

So, the good news of the Gospel is not just that I need more information, or that our evolution got off track, but that Jesus came to fix the fundamental human condition.  If I’m already a child of God, then I don’t really need a Savior.  The truth is not that I’m okay; the truth is that I’m not okay, but Jesus loves me in spite of my glaring warts.  I say all these things with no shame or self-condemnation.  It is so liberating to admit my brokenness before the Lord.  I can stand with Paul and boast in my weaknesses, knowing that my only real strength comes from the Lord (2 Corinthians 12:9).  In the same vein, there is not much in the UB to encourage dependence on the Lord.  I want to cling to Jesus like a drowning man clings to a life-raft.  Where is the sense of human desperation in the UB?  It just isn’t there.  In my natural state, I am not a child of God, I am only His creation.  To become a child of God, I need to
receive Christ, get a new heart, and be changed from the inside out.  That’s what it truly means to be born again.

One more thing I forgot to mention.  I tried desperately to reconcile my interest in the UB with Christianity.  At one time, I claimed that the UB acknowledged the deity of Christ, and was compatible with Christianity.  I even wrote an essay called the Urantia Book and my Christian Faith, which was published in a UB-related journal.  That’s how hard I was trying to have my cake and eat it too; I was trying desperately to squeeze compatibility out of two systems that are just not compatible.

And let me just say one more thing about my return home to the Lord.  I was so on fire when I came back to Christ.  I wanted to share the Gospel from the rooftops.  I think I was so on fire because for the first time, the gap I had felt between my mind and my heart was finally bridged.  The UB was no longer intellectually satisfying.  And since I already knew that the Bible spoke to my heart, where else could I go?  The Bible finally became intellectually satisfying as well.  When I read the Bible, it speaks to my whole being, not just one part of me.

Additional Problems with the Urantia Book

For those who have never read it, it is important to realize that though the UB may sound on the surface like a bunch of far-out science-fiction, it is actually a deeply persuasive, compelling, logical, and internally consistent work.  The problem is that a theological and philosophical system can be internally consistent, but still be out of sync with reality.  In other words, logic alone is not enough; a worldview must be supported by evidence and must conform to reality.  This means that faith must be supported by logic, evidence, and personal experience; one of those alone will not suffice.

For me, the UB passed the logic test, but failed the other two.  But the UB’s approach to faith is fideistic, which means that for the UB, “religion is purely and wholly a matter of personal experience” (138:2.1; emphasis original).  The word “wholly” always bothered me in this sentence.  Of course personal experience should matter; that was one of my biggest complaints against the UB–that it didn’t speak to my heart, it didn’t work in my experience.  But it also didn’t line up with reality.  Here’s a glaring example.

The UB claims that most of the Old Testament passages that Christians cite as Messianic prophecies were “misapplied to the life mission of Jesus” (122:4.4).  But the UB never backs up this assertion with evidence; it just makes this claim and expects us to take it at face value.  Of course, many of the Messianic prophecies support the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, which the UB vehemently rejects.  The problem is that Christ’s death for our sins is foreshadowed all over the Old Testament, in countless ways.  I will just give a few examples.

The most often-cited reference is Isaiah 53, which is a direct allusion to Christ’s atonement.  But it’s not even necessary to look to prophecy; the OT narratives also serve as types for Christ’s saving work.  For example, God’s rejection of Cain’s sacrifice is one of our first hints.  Why did God reject the sacrifice?  Because it wasn’t a lamb.  Jesus is our sacrificial lamb.  The story of Abraham and Isaac is also an obvious example of substitutionary atonement.  In fact, Abraham never actually sacrificed Isaac, and he knew that God didn’t really want him to do it; for he said, “God Himself will provide the lamb” (Genesis 22:7).  And of course, the blood of the Passover lamb foreshadows the blood of Christ.  Just as the blood on the doorpost protected the Jewish firstborn, so the blood of Christ protects us from the consequences of sin.

The UB can rail against the doctrine of atonement as being irrational and illogical, but how do UB readers get around these self-evident biblical passages?  The answer is that most UB readers don’t know the Bible well enough to discuss the issue.  And speaking of the Passover, the UB claims that it was just a coincidence that Jesus died during the Passover feast, and that he could have been crucified any other time.  Essentially, the UB just dismisses these facts, in the same way it dismisses the OT Messianic prophecies.

In the same vein, the UB minimizes the significance of Psalm 22, which Jesus quoted while on the cross.  While I agree with the UB that God the Father did not forsake Jesus, the UB goes further than that.  The authors claim that Jesus was just reciting Psalm 22 as a means of comfort while in a delirious state.  But what the UB completely fails to address is the Messianic character of Psalm 22; it’s a Messianic Psalm that predicts the Crucifixion.  In fact, it’s pretty evident from the text that the Psalmist who is speaking is Christ.

Earlier, I pointed out the numerous ways in which the UB rewrites the Bible.  I have already mentioned that the UB alters the resurrection accounts to conform to its Gnostic view that Jesus did not rise in a physical body.  Here is how the UB authors do this.  First, the UB modifies the biblical account of Thomas putting his hands in Jesus’ side.  Instead, Jesus allegedly tells Thomas that touching him is impossible (cf. 191:5.4).  The UB also has its own version of Mary’s encounter with the risen Christ.  In the Bible, Jesus tells Mary not to touch him.  The King James translation says, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father” (John 20:17).  I never understood what this meant; the passage always seemed vague to me.  But the UB, in accordance with its Gnostic view of the Resurrection, says, “Touch me not, Mary, for I am not as you knew me in the flesh” (189:4.12).  At first, the UB’s take on this
passage made sense to me.  I thought there was a contradiction in Scripture between Thomas touching Jesus and Jesus telling Mary not to touch him.  It seemed to me that the UB had resolved this apparent contradiction.

What I did not realize is that much of this is a translation issue.  I am so glad I found the New American Standard Version of the Bible (NASB).  While it’s not quite as poetic as other versions, its accuracy and precision has helped me make sense of certain biblical passages.  The one about Mary is a good example.  In the NASB version, Jesus says “Stop clinging to me . . . .”  When I read that, the lights came on for me.  Jesus is telling Mary not to cling to Him, because he’s about to return to the Father.  That’s it, it’s really that simple.

On a more foundational point, I can never embrace the Urantia Book because I no longer accept the theory of evolution.  At first, I thought I could be a theistic evolutionist and still accept the inerrancy of Scripture.  While that’s theoretically possible, I soon realized that evolution is ultimately incompatible with both Scripture and reality.  If we accept the biblical account of Adam and Eve as the first human beings, then we can’t accept the evolutionary assumption that they were descended from hominids.  Scripture clearly teaches that God created Adam and Eve as full-grown adults.  The Bible says nothing about their infancy.  We would have to concoct some story about Adam and Eve being children of hominids and having pre-human parents.  Secondly, creationists used to tell me all the time that there is evidence for micro-evolution, but not for macro-evolution.  I never understood this, but then, all of a sudden, it was clear to
me.  There is plenty of evidence that species change over time, but I don’t see any evidence that species can simply change from one to another by either gradual or sudden mutation.  While the fossil record clearly shows that certain species appeared at certain times, where is the evidence one species evolved from previous species?  And why isn’t this happening today?  Like so many things we learn in school, we tend to accept them uncritically, and our teachers do as well, which is why they teach these theories as facts.

Before I close this section, I must make one more brief but important point.  I have come not only to accept, but to appreciate the wrath of God.  The UB, of course, rejects divine wrath as a primitive, barbaric concept incompatible with the loving Heavenly Father revealed in Christ.  Part of the problem is the English word “wrath,” which often connotes arbitrary rage or abusive anger.  But the Bible says that God is “slow to anger” (Nehemiah 9:17), and since all of God’s attributes are magnified in Scripture, slow means really, really slow, like slow as molasses.  And then there’s the issue of the anger itself.  In the Bible, just what does God get angry about?  He gets angry about injustice, and terrible evils like child sacrifice and oppression of the poor.  I thank God for His wrath.  I’m glad we live in a universe where evil is truly punished, not just by a set of impersonal laws, but by a just Judge who is outraged by
human suffering.

In the Bible, God is both just and merciful.  God welcomes all those who gladly accept His mercy, and justly condemns those who spurn it.  If a sinner repents, we can rejoice at God’s mercy, but if a sinner refuses to repent, we can rejoice that God’s just judgment sent that person to Hell.  We don’t rejoice that the person is in Hell, for God says “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked” (Ezekiel 33:11), but we can still rejoice that  the world really is like the fairy tales of our childhood, the good guys live happily ever after and the evil are punished forever.  I, for one, am glad that suicide bombers face God’s judgment of eternal conscious punishment, rather than just being annihilated, as the UB teaches.  Sorry guys, you don’t get off scot-free.

What I’ve Learned from the Urantia Book

This is probably the most controversial part of my letter, and I’m sure it will raise eyebrows in some Christian circles.  But I’ve never shied away from controversy, so here goes.  There are some things in the Urantia Book that are true.  Otherwise, I would not have been attracted to it.  This in no way should be taken as an endorsement of the book.  I know it’s a false gospel, and ultimately, a lie from Satan.  But like all Satan’s lies, it contains a good deal of truth.  Satan knows our needs, and He will use those needs and even meet them on some level, to keep us away from the Kingdom.  In my case, he didn’t keep me away from salvation, but he took time that I could have been using to build God’s Kingdom and wasted it on heresy.  But since God uses evil for good, I am confident that He will use this experience for His glory.  It’s also important for Christians to know what’s good about the Urantia Book, just in case we
have occasion to minister to someone currently caught up in it.  Like Paul at Mars Hill, we need to build on the truth they already know, and show them how Christianity alone can meet the needs they are trying to fulfill through this false faith.  I can’t prove this, but I suspect that in most cases, heresies develop as an attempt to correct a previous imbalance in church teaching.  But, like many such human attempts, the result is an over-correction.  And it’s up to us as believers to find the healthy biblical balance.

One good example is an overly pessimistic view of human nature.  While the Bible definitely teaches original sin, it does not, in my opinion, teach that human beings are essentially evil or wicked.  As I stated earlier in this letter, I was initially attracted to way the UB revised the verse in Jeremiah (17:9) to say that the heart is only sometimes desperately wicked.  But after doing some research, I concluded that the KJV translation of this verse leaves room for improvement.  The Hebrew word ânash, which the KJV translates as “wicked,” is more appropriately translated as “sick” or “incurable.”  The New American Standard translation of this verse renders the phrase “desperately sick” (“beyond cure” NIV).  This makes far more sense to me, and resonates with my own experience.  I think we can all safely say that our hearts are incurably sick; that’s one reason we need a Savior.  And it is true that we are all sinful,
but that’s a different thing from saying we’re all wicked.  Therefore, the UB over-reaches in its attempt to “correct” this particular biblical passage.

Secondly, while the UB is entirely wrong in its rejection of Christ’s atoning sacrifice, some of its arguments against this doctrine are legitimate reactions to unfortunate presentations of this teaching.  For example, the UB attacks the idea that God’s love and His righteousness are incompatible, and that God needed a sacrifice to appease His justice so that His love and mercy could flow freely.  But unfortunately, I’ve heard many Christians use this argument to defend atonement.  For example, British evangelical John Stott, in a speech I heard some years ago, actually said, “God has a problem with forgiveness.  God has a problem with forgiveness because of who God is, in His blazing, and even blinding holiness.”  Well, first of all, can we really say that God has problems?  We have problems, not God.  And does God really have a problem with forgiveness?  Was the Cross the only possible way for God to forgive us?  Was God
unapproachable apart from the Cross?  Does God’s holiness make forgiveness impossible apart from the Cross?

The UB also says that the atonement doctrine is an attack on the unity of deity.  “The affectionate heavenly Father . . . is not a divided personality–one of justice and one of mercy” (2:6.6).  These are very good arguments, and we need to find a way to answer them.  First of all, the cross was not necessary in order to unify a divided God who had to reconcile His love and His justice.  The death of Christ on the Cross itself demonstrated the unity of God.  If you owed me money, and I wanted to forgive your debt, I have two choices.  The first is to simply waive the debt, which would be a fine act of mercy and forgiveness.  The second is to have someone else pay the debt in your place.  This would not only be an act of mercy, but an act of justice as well.  In other words, yes, God is fully capable of forgiving us without satisfying His justice, but He went much farther than that; he arranged to have Jesus pay our debt.

You see, sin counts.  If we hurt someone, we are not just sinning against that person, we are sinning against God.  And while I can make amends to the people I’ve hurt, how can I possibly make amends to God?  I can’t, and my sin would still remain.  Sin matters because people matter; and God is grieved and hurt when His children are hurt.  So, the UB has forced me to think more carefully about how I express my arguments in defense of atonement.  One article that does a great job of defending atonement is “Father Forgive Them,” by Father Richard John Neuhaus, which appeared in the March 2000 issue of First Things.

The Urantia Book is also very optimistic about the future.  While it is not naive in its optimism, it definitely proclaims a gospel of progress.  Some years ago, when I first rejected the UB, I was afraid I had to reject this idea entirely.  I thought I had to accept the traditional pre-millennial eschatology of the Left Behind novels.  Thankfully, I was introduced to post-millennial views, and soon found that there were all kinds of ways to look at the Last Days, and that there was a lot of room for optimism about the progress we could still make to build God’s Kingdom here on Earth.  Yes, I’m still an optimist, and not just because I know Jesus is coming back.  I’m an optimist because I believe God’s people have a role in transforming civilization for Jesus Christ.  I, for one, want to be a part of that process.

The UB is also a vocal critic of the Christian church.  While it dos not condemn the church outright, it does warn against the dark side of institutional religion.  As I said earlier, I don’t want to turn this into a church-bashing session; I currently do attend church, and have not given up on it.  And isolation from church can cause its own set of problems; people who don’t sit under good teaching and claim that they are taught only by the Holy Spirit are in danger of falling into heresy and spiritual pride.  Having said that, I went for several years with no church family, and I know many Christians in the same boat.

In fact, some of the most mature Christians I know have left the church, either because they aren’t fed spiritually, or because they can’t find ministry and service opportunities that truly utilize their gifts.  I hate to say it, but many of the UB’s critiques of church culture sound like sentiments echoed by frustrated Christians.  Again, great book on this subject is Julia Duin’s Quitting Church: Why the Faithful Are Fleeing and What to Do about It.

And finally, the UB has taught me a lot about love and forgiveness.  In a paper called “Religion and Human Experience,” in a section titled “Problems of Growth,” the authors give an analogy that is dear to the hearts of UB readers, and I can see why.  Readers are asked to imagine a caveman, a filthy, smelly, misshapen creature, with a club in his hand and a look of hatred and rage on his face.  For most people, the immediate reaction would be disgust and contempt.  But what if we enlarge the picture?  In front of the man is a saber-toothed tiger and behind him a woman and two children.  When we see that this man is just trying to protect his family, we see the beginnings of something fine and noble in the human race.  The point here is when we see the whole picture, we can understand a person’s true motives and intentions.  By extension, God sees all our motives, and can understand us completely, so it is easy for Him to forgive us.
The UB says in several places that when we understand someone, we will eventually learn to love them.

The same applies to forgiveness.  There is even a French proverb that says, “To understand all is to forgive all.”  While this concept completely sidesteps the issue of God’s justice and the need for atonement, I have found it to be true in my own experience.  Virtually all of us have had the experience of being frustrated with a person’s behavior, and then we find out later that something awful just happened to them, or that they had a bad day at work.  Then the lights come on for us, and we are able to forgive them.  In fact, I’ll take it a step farther–we can probably get forgiveness down to a science.

The UB’s take on sin also helped expand my understanding of forgiveness.  The UB redefines sin to mean “deliberate disloyalty to Deity” (89:10.2).  In order for an act to be sinful, it must be rooted in a conscious attitude of willful rebellion against God.  This, of course, is contrary to the Bible, which views sin as a natural impulse in the human condition, not so much an act of conscious rebellion, but a kind of human sickness that only Jesus can cure.  But there’s a piece of truth in the UB’s view, and here it is.  I’m convinced that one reason there is so much lack of forgiveness in the world is that people forget that most of the things we do that hurt people are not done on purpose.  We hurt people unintentionally all the time, and if we see that a person’s actions are not malicious or deliberate, it becomes much easier to forgive them.  Even Jesus absolved his own enemies on the cross with this insight when he said,
“Father forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing” (Luke 23:34).  And the distinction between intentional and unintentional harm is made numerous times in Old Testament law, and may be the basis for our current legal distinctions, such as murder vs. involuntary manslaughter, etc.

Again, I don’t mean to endorse the Urantia Book.  Its worldview is unbiblical, and it presents a false gospel that does not lead to salvation.  And I certainly don’t believe the UB is a revelation.  After all, the concepts I cited above that I find helpful are easily explainable by purely human insight.  But they are still, in my opinion, valid insights that can be integrated into a person’s Christian faith.

Suggestions for Christians

When I first came back to the Lord, I was rather frustrated with the Christian church, meaning the institutional church but also the body of Christ more generally.  But the Lord has softened my heart considerably.  So, instead of complaining and finding fault, I’d like to offer some suggestions for us as believers when reaching out to those caught up in the UB or similar belief systems, whether they be Christians struggling with their faith, or folks who have never embraced the Gospel at all.

1. Don’t patronize those with sincere doubts and intellectual questions.  Quite often, when I tried getting answers to questions about Bible passages or concepts that I found confusing, I was told that I should just have faith, or that I should not rely on my own understanding.  Not only is this insulting, but it’s counter-productive.  A person who wrestles deeply with doubts and questions can have their faith strengthened and renewed in the process.  We don’t have to turn off our intellects when we read Scripture.  There is nothing illogical or irrational about the Bible.  In fact, when we examine it critically, it comes out smelling like a rose.  We should expect people, both believers and nonbelievers, to ask hard questions and demand logical answers.  Sometimes I think people approached my questions in a patronizing manner because they themselves didn’t know how to answer them.  That’s okay, because there are numerous
resources, particularly online tools, which can help.  I’ll just name one right now, because it’s the best one I’ve seen; it’s called www.christianthink-tank.com.  I have never seen a better apologetic site in my life.  Another good one iswww.gotquestions.org.

2.  We need to be careful how we present the Gospel.  Most people caught up in New Age religions or liberal theology like to talk of God’s unconditional love.  When I first heard the Gospel, I resisted it because I thought Christianity taught a God of conditional love.  I thought God wouldn’t love me until I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior.  In fact, one girl in high school put it to me rather crudely.  “Before you accept Christ, God is your enemy,” she said.  “Then, once you get saved, God puts down all His weapons against you.”  Not only is this view of God rightly disturbing, it’s not accurate.  For some reason, I didn’t get the most critical message of the Gospel; the unconditional and unmerited grace of God.  I somehow got the impression that getting saved was something I was supposed to do, not something Jesus had done for me 2,000 years ago.  The truth is that God accepted us before we ever accept Him.
Even the Urantia Book makes this point, though it denies the most important evidence of God’s acceptance–His dying for broken sinners like me.  When presenting the Gospel we must make it clear, as the Bible does in several places, that God came to us before we ever came to Him.  “We love because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19).  Romans 5 is a great chapter that makes this point very well.

So, yes, God does love us unconditionally; He loves us so much that He has provided eternal life for us even though we don’t deserve it.  We don’t have to accept Christ in order for God to love us, we accept Christ because His love for us compels us to do so.  As Romans 2 says, “the kindness of God leads you to repentance” (2:4).

3. Don’t assume that a person is not saved just because they are proclaiming heresy and doubting the inerrancy of Scripture.  I was doing all those things, and I was still saved.  If you know a Christian who has strayed off the path, make sure you let them know that they still belong to the Lord, even if you disagree with their current belief system.  This will make a person feel safe enough to share their doubts and struggles with you without fear of judgment.  Pray for them, love them, and let them know they are still your brother or sister in Christ.

Conclusion

Let’s close in prayer, shall we?

Dear heavenly Father,

When I came out of my bondage to the Urantia Book, a UB reader I had worked with closely told me that she had found the God of her dreams.  Well, I’m glad you are not the God of my dreams; you are far bigger and better; you are the God of reality.  Comfort those who are afraid to come to you because they have distorted images of who you are.  Help them to see that the God of Scripture is actually far more loving, kind, and merciful than the superficial god they have created in their own minds.  Put people in their lives who can explain your Word logically and clearly.  At the same time, give them an experience of your presence that they can feel deeply in their hearts; and not just as an abstract intellectual concept.  Help them to place their faith in your Son, the real Jesus, the Jesus of Scripture, not a false made-up jesus, but the Jesus who came to rescue them from their sin, to fix what is broken; a Savior, not just a teacher, the way,
not just the way-shower.  Help those caught up in false belief systems to find you, and to fall in love with you.  Give them a hunger for your Word, and a hunger to know you deeply and to walk in your ways.

I ask these things in Jesus’ name and by the precious blood of His cross, amen.

Andre Traversa
December 1, 2010.

(also posted at http://theology.geek.nz)

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284 Replies to “Philosophy, Urantia, and an Open Letter”

    1. Do you honestly think anyone is going to read a blog post this long?

      Someone who is interested might. The purpose is that someone who might need to read it, can.

    2. I did and I am glad I did. Andre does a pretty good job of describing the Urantia Book. I am surprised that it only “spoke” to him intellectually. I am a complete believer in the Urantia Book’s 5th Epochal Revelation as well as all the authors “Papers” Andre is obviously a smart guy. I am asking his thoughts on the “unqualified Absolute”

    3. A fresh message from Gabriel for those who are open to this:

      SERVICESECTOR2@Yahoogroups.com
      (PROGRESS Service Sector)

      http://www.FouWinds10.com

      Stubborn Bugs Meet The Cosmic Carwash

      3/7/03 – Archangel Gabriel

      Good afternoon, dear friend and scribe. I am Archangel Gabriel, along with many others who you may regard as the Host of God. Michael has already informed you ones—through recent past messages—to our very near presence within your planetary environment at this time. We come within the Light of Creator of All That Is. Our Radiance is but the Power of the One Source, flowing through to those in need, for the benefit of ALL of Creation.

      Thank you for hearing our call and scribing this message. We have asked you to add this last-minute task to an already filled plate because so many ones on your world are crying out for help in this turbulent time—and yet some of these same ones, who claim familiarity with our messages, easily forget what counsel we have shared in past lessons that would have made the going a lot easier now.

      Artificially induced bioelectrical conditions of depression, anxiety, and related detachments from spiritual sustenance are being broadcast at such an intensity at this time that many are floundering in all manner of negativity. This negativity is intensified by a sense of disorientation with respect to what is “reality”—a condition resulting from the planetary frequency rising faster than some of you can adjust.

      On the world stage you are witnessing opposing factions of your so-called elite world controllers battle for “king of the hill”—as we told you, for many years now, would necessarily happen. You see the wishes of one faction (who prefer different plans for your demise) manifesting through such anti-war actions as are being taken by France, Germany, the Soviet Union, and China. You see the other faction working through the United States, Great Britain, Israel, and whomever they have managed to bribe or blackmail for their vote at your United Nations debate forum. The foolish determination of the one is matched, step for step, by the overwhelming technical might of the other.

      But do not be deceived by external appearances, dear ones. The opposing elite factions conducting their business through many “puppets” are ALL controlled, at a still higher level of inter-dimensional manipulation, by the SAME Dark Energies. They require that your planet be kept down in frequency for their continued comfort and survival in your domain.

      How is this accomplished? As we have explained in many past lessons, this is done as it has always been done—through the creation of conditions that generate or provoke negative (low-frequency) emotions like fear, despair, etc., in as many of you as possible. You, millions of you, reacting to their contrived ominous events, then radiate that negative energy outward, like a lot of radio towers, and thus is created a low-frequency “atmosphere” in energy space that’s comfortable and nurturing to them, and in the process partially cancels the unpleasant (to them) high-frequency energies impinging upon your planet (and your entire solar system, actually) with greater and greater intensity, and higher and higher frequency, with each passing day.

      So what you are witnessing on the world stage right now (through such focal points as Iraq and Korea) is no more and no less than a reflection in the physical domain of a high-stakes battle for survival by Dark Energies who have long held comfortable reign over the affairs of mankind on planet Earth. Picture them like stubborn bugs trying to hold onto the outside of your automobile (planet) as you drive through a kind of cosmic car wash at this time.

      Ultimately these Dark Energies will lose their hold and, through sheer discomfort from the intensifying high-frequency environment, choose to go elsewhere. But not without a fight. And if possible, not without destroying as much of what they can’t have so nobody else can enjoy it either.

      This is where we of the Host of God come into the picture and necessarily become very close participants in the affairs of your world. As both Michael and Esu “Jesus” Sananda have explained in recent messages, we stand quite ready to nullify any actions of aggression that cross the line into the danger zone of jeopardizing the health and forward evolutional progression of Mother Earth and those souls experiencing with her in alignment with Creator’s Will.

      Yes, that’s a mouthful. But we’re a recognized formidable adversary to those in positions of seeming power who have chosen to be agents of Darkness. And as has already been explained, the Dark Energies associated with your planet are feeling quite desperate at this time.

      I, Gabriel, am historically known for having somewhat of a dramatic flair when it comes to making important announcements. So let me make this one perfectly clear (and you may add your own trumpet blast if so desired): We of the Host again urge those in major decision-making capacities to think twice and then act in good conscience—or be prepared to learn that lesson the hard way. The Golden Rule is not difficult to follow for those who are aligned with Creator’s Will. This is the time of Testing and Sorting—with no exceptions and no “wiggle room” as you ones put it.

      We suggest that you who read these words with understanding and appreciation remain diligent about keeping one foot in that physical world of experience and one in our higher [frequency] world of spirit. Balance between these two domains is key to a smooth ride through the Planetary Transition (that which has been called the Great Awakening and Great Cleansing) now in obvious progress on your Earth.

      Do monitor what your news reports have to say, for you can discern much more than they would like to reveal by their actions and words (especially of backpedaling and denial). But practice doing such monitoring of “news” with a healthy detachment that buffers you from being pulled into the negative emotional reactions of fear, anger, etc., that they effort to manipulate you into emitting.

      If you find yourself sliding down that slippery Dark slope of negativity, remember to call in the Light, as often as necessary, and ask we of the Host for assistance. We are ever ready to help. But YOU MUST ASK! Likewise make humor a frequent ingredient of your daily emotional diet. Along with love, appreciation, and kindness, humor is a powerful antidote to any type of low-frequency attack, whether from within or without.

      We would like to close this message by asking that you also continue to send Love, Light, and Appreciation to Mother Earth, who endures great negativity at this time of turmoil so that you ones may have a classroom environment in which much unique soul-growth can take place. Her destiny resides in the same higher-frequency environment that you who are drawn to these messages instinctively know is likewise YOUR new home. That higher-dimensional realm is already home to many of you during what you call sleep periods, and the “bleed-through” into waking consciousness of that experience shall continue to intensify as the “veil of separation” continues to thin.

      It was about this time last year that Soltec—whose translation of duties in your terms would be as Geophysical Commander of our mission of aiding in this Earth Transition Project—shared a most critical message with you that we are asking to be repeated again here. Purposeful covert assaults upon your bioelectrical stability make it difficult to remember what you read yesterday, much less a year ago, and that message was looking down the road to what you are facing RIGHT NOW.

      Bless you who are persevering through these intense lessons of spiritual growth, for as any ONE grows, so does the Whole of Creation. It is a grand and glorious journey, indeed!

      I am Gabriel—Archangel, Wayshower, and formidable ally to you who hear the call and effort to do your part in this most Grand Play unfolding. I leave you in the Light and Love that flows through me from the Source of All That Is. Salu.

        1. Don’t remember…your sons and daugthers will prophetise, and when you look at a Crop Circle what do you think? We are living a shift, a change of dispensation, the return of Jesus and He is with His angels.

        2. 26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.?

          27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luke 17

          The traditions of a time when water covered the whole of the earth’s surface are universal. Many races harbor the story of a world-wide flood some time during past ages. The Biblical story of Noah, the ark, and the flood is an invention of the Hebrew priesthood during the Babylonian captivity. There has never been a universal flood since life was established on Urantia. The only time the surface of the earth was completely covered by water was during those Archeozoic ages before the land had begun to appear.

          But Noah really lived; he was a wine maker of Aram, a river settlement near Erech. He kept a written record of the days of the river’s rise from year to year. He brought much ridicule upon himself by going up and down the river valley advocating that all houses be built of wood, boat fashion, and that the family animals be put on board each night as the flood season approached. He would go to the neighboring river settlements every year and warn them that in so many days the floods would come. Finally a year came in which the annual floods were greatly augmented by unusually heavy rainfall so that the sudden rise of the waters wiped out the entire village; only Noah and his immediate family were saved in their houseboat.

          Just a sharing.

  1. No wonder you rejected UB!
    You focus on the cross and try to give it a divine sense, as seem to do Christians. Wake up! That way of dying was not a will of God, but a will of another generation of stupid mortals, the same will that our Father “decided” to respect at the very moment he had given us “some power to choose” in this gap of time inside the eternity.
    We urantians prefer to focus the life and teachings of Jesus. Put yourself in the place of Jesus and discover what He might prefer you to focus into.
    Part IV of The Urantia Book; The life and teachings of Jesus.
    Greetings from Spain.

    1. No wonder you rejected UB!
      You focus on the cross and try to give it a divine sense, as seem to do Christians. Wake up! That way of dying was not a will of God, but a will of another generation of stupid mortals, the same will that our Father “decided” to respect at the very moment he had given us “some power to choose” in this gap of time inside the eternity.
      We urantians prefer to focus the life and teachings of Jesus. Put yourself in the place of Jesus and discover what He might prefer you to focus into.
      Part IV of The Urantia Book; The life and teachings of Jesus.
      Greetings from Spain.

      Hi David,

      I am not the author of the letter. I reject the UB because it’s a load of tripe. Andre explains his reasons for rejecting it.
      You can, if you do a little research, discover that the whole book was completely fabricated by Sadler and has no basis in reality at all.

      1. Oh, sorry! I thought this was a review of a book called “The Urantia Book”, and not a kind of research of a human called “Sadler”.
        Mmm… I did read the Urantia Book completely and I can’t see ANY substantial relation between the Urantia Book and the books that Sadler wrote (or any other human). Many other readers agree with this feeling.
        Moreover, the word “Sadler” appears in The Urantia Book nowhere. So? What happens? Do you need “Sadler” for some kind of excuse?

        When you hear music, do you hear music or do you waste your time dealing in your mind with his possible author?
        One day, open your mind and try to read UB that way.
        The content of UB is the one important thing.

        Some glasses are completely transparent and let every light pass through without degradation.
        Equally, some humans are completely honest and let Truth pass through them.
        Just that.
        And just in case you might be interested; I have never felt myself more REAL than reading UB.

        Greetings
        David Carrera Ibáñez

      2. The Urantia book is only for those willing to read it, kind of like what you said about reading this blog lol, the rules of spirituality was always the same, God’s rule everywhere never changes unless he wills it, what God says is, what man says is fallible, as you see as time progresses man develops more of an understanding of the realities present, material (body), mind (you need a mind to think, and therefore understand), spiritual (the spiritual realm is looked upon as real as this realm), understanding the way the universe works has always been some trouble for man, but his understanding becomes more and more as he becomes more civilized and strays away from the anger, hate emotions that are based on fear, fear from not understanding, emotions that come from not being able to express what they are thinking. Peace be with you all, everyone’s choices are respected, we all have our very own individual way to God, the very paths which he made.

        1. TY

          Again, these are signs of a cult. And worse, these are the signs of gnosticism. That there is some kind of “spiritual knowledge” which is only available to the “elite” (ie those who are willing to read/learn/perform some ritual etc).
          The bible, especially the NT is VERY careful to deal with this. 1/2 John, 1/2 Corinthians for example, are completely and totally opposed to this kind of understanding.

          If that does not alert you to the fact there is something wrong with the UB, nothing will.
          If I said to you, “Your daughter has joined my society and will join my harem because my ubania book says so” – you would have a fit and tell me my ubania book was a load of rubbish and let my daughter go. You would NOT accept “the ubania book is just for those who read it and you’re not spiritual enough to understand it, so get lost”.

          Your post actually defies logic and common sense.

          1. Wasn’t Christianity a cult when they first started, Jesus didn’t go around writing things because they could be misinterpreted, also, Jesus didn’t go around saying that we should make a religion with my name, he always said he was doing the Father’s business, there is no tell-tale signs of present day cults, every freewill choice is respected, we are on the verge of a bright future, God is present everywhere, only God has power, no one else

          2. Also, this isn’t gnosticism, and if you review all the records closely you can see that the statements are true, the only requirement of salvation is to have faith, even the faintest flicker of faith is acknowledged

      3. The moment when people lose their site that only God is sovereign, one religion will assert authority over another, and there you have your religious wars, only God is sovereign, we are all at the same place, you cannot argue God’s sovereign place also, the people of Earth are experiencing a need for more, Christianity is not being attacked in any way, we just put the truth in the midst, Christianity does not meet all the needs of modern day people, some of the things are barbaric in my opinion but thats just an opinion, Christianity has done a very good job for the progress of this world but we need more of God, we can take the next step in spirituality, God is spirit

        1. Ty

          Try speaking in plain english instead of “jesusonianese”.
          1. its “sight” not “site”.
          2. by trusting in the UB you HAVE lost God.. totally.
          3. There is no truth in the UB.
          4. The “next step” in Spirituality is when Jesus returns and the order of God restored – that is, the eschaton.

          1. The only truth in the UB is the copyright date most likely. If you can even trust that. Anyone who has given up the Scriptures for some fanciful notion such as the UB or the BoM has given up reality.

          2. Where does Jesus say to attack others, to say bad things to one another, where does Jesus say to say to another fellow human being with a divine spirit and a soul that he or she lost God? Who is a man to say what God thinks and does, where does Jesus attack other religions, Jesus was spiritual, Jesus’s religion is spirituality, the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man. The main reason why many people fall away from Christianity is because there are too many half-hearted believers who attack and are self-righteous, only righteousness comes from God, the spirit of truth is real, God is real, only God may judge another being. Do not bar your hearts, in fact whole-heartedly follow Jesus’s teachings, Christianity’s name is even focused on the name Christ, Jesus never taught people to do these things that so many so called followers of Christ does. Clean your hearts out, theres no weakness in following Jesus, in fact following God whole, displays more courage than any army ever will face.

  2. Sadler made the book? Impossible, even if he had the help of the best minds in the 30s in all areas of human knowledge. A bit difficult, is not it?

  3. Wagner :
    Sadler made the book? Impossible, even if he had the help of the best minds in the 30s in all areas of human knowledge. A bit difficult, is not it?

    No, not at all.
    Religions have been created since the beginning of time, but in recent history you have Mormonism, scientology, christian science, etc. Scientology even has a verifiable science aspect to it, along with all its scifi stuff. It’s far more complicated than the UB even.

    It probably was not “easy” to make, but for an intelligent man, with intelligent friends, in an age where this stuff was extremely popular…
    Gosh, you just have to watch the history channels “ancient aliens” series to see where all this came from. And you can see that many of scientology and jesusonian “ideas” have been around for a LONG time. In fact, there is evidence of it from 12000 BC.
    It’s a crock. Unlike the bible, any of the “science” in the UB was from the early part of last century, and quite a bit of it is wrong.

    1. There are many things current day science that has many flaws, these are because of ignorance, arrogance, hardly no morals and ideals, Ideals are a new standard for doing things, setting new heights of study, play, behavior, moral and spiritual values, science, education, politics, government, art, new goals to strive for as a human race, to keep evolving, we are evolutionary beings and the more we evolve the more we understand new meanings and values that are only new to us, we can develop new technologies, rid the world of disease and hardships, we understand that the more easier life gets the more we can evolve our minds, the better the world would be without war, violence, anger and hatered, these are just a few things the Urantia book represents, God was always much more than man has ever thought he was, God is not a concept of man, rather, man is a concept of God, God created man, not man creates God, this same God knows everything, we are evolutionary, we know by experience, this is only the tip of the iceberg

          1. What you are trying to say is “humans can potentially be gods”.

            And that my friend, is where you, me, the bible, rationality, and truth depart.

    1. No sir, couldn’t reply to that one so I’m replying on this one if no one minds lol, I’m not saying that humans can be God’s, there is only one God, that is the Trinity, we are son’s of God but never God’s, divine in our destiny but not deities, Jesus is the perfect representation of God

      1. Jesus was/is God, according to Christianity (based on the best evidence of Scripture), so, you also reject basic Christianity.

        When will it end?

        How much of the bible do you accept as true? And by true I mean, the inspired word of God – the record of God’s interaction with humanity.

        1. Yes, inspiration is inspiration from man looking at the divine, but that is man writing down things man is divine in his destiny only, the things Jesus said is divine, Jesus is the Son of God, he is God to mortal man

          1. Incorrect, if you claim to be a Christian. Since you are not, it doesnt matter, I have no interest in arguing about it.

            You need to look at what inspiration means in regard to scripture, because your definition is irrelevant.

  4. David Carrera :
    Oh, sorry! I thought this was a review of a book called “The Urantia Book”, and not a kind of research of a human called “Sadler”.
    Mmm… I did read the Urantia Book completely and I can’t see ANY substantial relation between the Urantia Book and the books that Sadler wrote (or any other human). Many other readers agree with this feeling.
    Moreover, the word “Sadler” appears in The Urantia Book nowhere. So? What happens? Do you need “Sadler” for some kind of excuse?
    When you hear music, do you hear music or do you waste your time dealing in your mind with his possible author?
    One day, open your mind and try to read UB that way.
    The content of UB is the one important thing.
    Some glasses are completely transparent and let every light pass through without degradation.
    Equally, some humans are completely honest and let Truth pass through them.
    Just that.
    And just in case you might be interested; I have never felt myself more REAL than reading UB.
    Greetings
    David Carrera Ibáñez

    No, this is a letter from a friend, who used to believe the UB was “inspired” and came to recognise that it was not.

    Any critique of any claimed “inspiration” (and the UB is claimed to be “inspired”) means that it’s method of transmission must be investigated, and therefore its author.
    This is why there is teams of scholars and experts who have spent thousands of years, and will continue to spend their time investigating the sources, origins, accuracy, transmission, etc of the Bible.
    We KNOW FOR A FACT that Sadler was involved in the transmission of this book. We also know that he used his position as a scientist and researcher to “verify its authenticity”.
    His deliberate obfuscation of his sources means everything written is not only suspect, but probably fake (and in fact, automatic writing has been demonstrated to be fake).

    1. I challenge you to make a book like UB by automatic writing or by any other method you may fancy.
      If it surpasses UB in quality, I will believe it!
      😉
      Again; we all transmit, but we make ourselves transparent or opaque mortals.
      The source of Truth can’t ever be a human alone.

  5. David Carrera :
    Jules Verne never said that he had written to enlarge mankind consciousness.
    It’s different merit to offer a novel and to offer a truth

    No its not. Scientology is a scifi novel, and yet its proponents claim it offers a truth too. Even better, it contains a science which can be tested. And yet, its a load of cobblers, just like the UB – in fact, they contain quite similar material.

      1. Author: David Carrera
        Comment:
        I think you are wrong again, no relation at all.
        Many signals already warn about a high load of prejudice on your side

        Of course they do. That’s a sign of a cult.

  6. David Carrera :
    I challenge you to make a book like UB by automatic writing or by any other method you may fancy.
    If it surpasses UB in quality, I will believe it!

    Again; we all transmit, but we make ourselves transparent or opaque mortals.
    The source of Truth can’t ever be a human alone.

    Why would I want to make a fake book? I have the Bible.

    As I said, there is nothing really new in the UB. Just different names for things which were around in popular thought at the time. Many of which, as I said, have been around for thousands of years in one form or another. None true.

  7. Andre

    Jesus said: “I have many things to say unto you but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when HE, the Spirit of Truth, is come, HE will Guide You into all Truth: for He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever HE shall hear, that shall he speak; and HE will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me and shall shew it unto you.” [John 16:12, 13]

    The Apostle John said in his epistle “But the anointing [Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit] which ye have received of HIM abideth in you, and ye need not that ANY MAN teach you: But the same ANOINTING teacheth you of ALL THINGS.”….[1 John 2:27]

    These are only a few statements Jesus made that tell you that Jesus Spirit will TEACH YOU, US, ME, EVERYBODY.
    There is no Bible involved, no New Testament, The Spirit will TEACH. In order that we follow him we will rely in the Spirit to teach and as he said to Nicodimus: “You must be born again.” That is simply asking Jesus Spirit to indwell us. The sinners prayer is normally all we have to do for this experience, that is to start the leading of the Spirit. The Spirit gets ahold of your soul and HE leads, HE influences, HE guides. The inner voice becomes louder in your soul and you are guided in just about everything.

    Andrea, Sorry, you mention Dale Essary as one of your mentors, early on some years ago for some time of about 2 months I had a discussing with Dale about his thinking of the UB. After our long discussions two things he was never able to respond to me was [1] why is the fundamental Christian church made up of over 350 different competing sects? many disagreeing with many of their own sects, that had evolved from the teachings of the Bible. Why is that Andrea? Confusion? misenterpretation? poor leadership? Dales response was a simple I can’t influence the way they read the bible or something to that affect. [2] The other question I asked him had to do with the Born Again Experience, I asked him: “are you born again has the Spirit taken a hold of your soul.” I asked him that several times he never responded to the born again experience. I ask you the same thing Andrea; “Are you born again?” do you hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. I can easily believe your knowledge of Jesus is HEAD KNOWLEDGE there is no Spirit guiding you or teaching you. Why I believe this? Good Christian believing people do not bash other brothers in Christ. Why do I even bother to give you my opinion? That is because there is nothing in the Urantia Book that distracts from the love of Christ and most important it teaches the Love of God. What wrong with that? so you like the Bible, fine, I do too, because there are things in there that were taught by divine intervention. but, what our brothers think is what has been programed by our fundamental Christian brothers and that is the precautions by the pastors, reverends, and priests that say DO NOT READ ANY OTHER BOOK it will be blasphemy, the devil is behind these books. etc, etc,. I went thru this experience, I was fundamental for 57 years Andrea, just think of it, but there is a major difference, I was truly Born Again. And I have been hearing the voices of the Holy Spirit for Years. My studies in the bible exeed 50 or more readings of the Bible, I am not bragging but its true. I found the Bible wanting, falling short. So I asked the Holy Spirit to guide me to the truth.

    Jesus said: “Revealed truth, personally discovered truth, is the supreme delight of the human soul; it is the joint creation of the material mind and the indwelling spirit. The eternal salvation of this truth discerning and beauty loving soul is assured by the hunger and thirst for goodness which leads this mortal to develope singleness of purpose to do the Fathers will, to find God and to become like him. There is never conflict between true knowledge and truth. There may be conflect between knowledge and human beliefs. Beliefs colored with PREJUDICE, distorted by FEAR, and dominated by the dread of FACING NEW FACTS of MATERIAL DISCOVERY or Spiritual progress.” Andrea and Dale this is what Jesus said in the UB and it fits you and Dale. New Facts, fear, and preconceived opinions.

    The UB teaches and GLORIFIES GOD. His Love for us, his mercy, what’s wrong with it? Why bash this love letter from God.

    I told Dale someday he will be truely embarrassed just like Paul on the road to Damascus. its a matter of time, a short time.
    “Be perfect as I am perfect” [Gen 17:1]

    In Brotherly love, Jess

    1. Jess,

      a. The purpose of those passages is not to tell you that God is going to somehow implant knowledge in your head.

      b. Andre (not andrea) can not read this. He is blind and the computer he uses can not render any more than simple text in an email. He prefers it that way.

      Your point [1]: Irrelevant. There are sects within UB as well.
      There are not “350 competing sects” – there are groups of people doing their best to understand a document formed over 6000 years by cultures and so forth that no longer exist. Of COURSE there will be differing understandings of various things.
      The most important bits are generally agreed upon, and are agreed upon within orthodoxy. The “little bits” are really non-essential.

      [2] Again, irrelevant. This just shows complete misunderstanding about what it means to be born again.
      In order to be born again, one needs to have ones nature changed. This is something that can only be performed by the Spirit. All this “taking hold of your soul” is just codswallop and the bible certainly does not teach it.

      These objections are what we call “straw men”. The UB is a book created by a clever man, to deceive people, and I am sorry to say, unlike Andre, you are still deceived.

  8. Two Bible quotes:

    in Daniel 10;21 you read:

    21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

    If the Bible is the truth than what is the scripture of truth mentioned by the angel?

    8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
    13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.! Cor 13

    Paul admit that he knows partialy and prophetise partialy then why some persons consider his writtings has the Truth?

    Claude.

    1. Claude,

      Are you serious?
      Daniel is apocalyptic literature, and one should NEVER make doctrine based on it. Certainly not quote it like you actually know what it means.

      Second, Paul. Again, a straw man. This passage is about the fact we’re not living in the “promised perfect world”. The bible is clear this has not arrived.
      Its nothing about whether what Paul says is true or not. LOL.

  9. And who is is Michael your prince?

    An other Bible quote:

    4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2

    Why so many christians and humans are so afraid of the Devil and demons?

    1. Claude,
      Michael isnt my prince.

      Please stop quoting scripture. As a Jesusonian you reject the authority of Scripture and claim the UB as your bible. Stop trying to use the UB to interpret scripture. Its the other way around.

      1. Jesusonian’s believe what they want to believe, besides we approve of the scriptures, we do not attack any in any way, man was always fallible, God isn’t, if you would only listen to Jesus’s words and the messengers you would understand, anger, hate, are primitive emotions based on fear, “be not afraid, do not fear for I am with you” the Father is with each and everyone of us, besides, do you think that God is infallible? That the devil is some kind of match for him? If they were in a battle, the devil wouldn’t even stand, and our Father is not that kind of Father, he loves each and everyone one of his children

        1. “We approve of the Scriptures” is not the same as having faith in their inspiration.
          What has “fallible man” got to do with it? According to you, Jesus was a man, therefore fallible, so why bother listening to anything he has to say? Your logic is self defeating, because like the UB, its man made.

          God _is_ infallible, or he wouldnt be God. According to the bible, the devil is NOT a match for God, and was defeated at the cross.

          If you want to use theology to prove yourself right, you’re in trouble. The UB misuses, misunderstands, and corrupts Scripture. Its interpretation is based on 1930’s undestandings of an heretic sect of the SDA’s and is just a load of cobblers. This should further prove to you that the UB is inherently flawed.

          1. Yes, he was a man, he is a man and the Son of God at the same time, he went through all the struggles and joys of a human life, and came forth conquering with extreme righteousness, I have faith that good will always triumph, my faith in Jesus is not shaken one bit, he is the ruler of the universe. Remember that man thinks what man thinks, God thinks what God thinks, it says that in the bible, the way the universe works is not up to man to decide, in the ages to come we will know of these things, but everything must be done in accordance with the will of the Father

          2. Yes, he was a man, he is a man and the Son of God at the same time, he went through all the struggles and joys of a human life, and came forth conquering with extreme righteousness, I have faith that good will always triumph, my faith in Jesus is not shaken one bit, he is the ruler of the universe. Remember that man thinks what man thinks, God thinks what God thinks, it says that in the bible, the way the universe works is not up to man to decide, in the ages to come we will know of these things, but everything must be done in accordance with the will of the Father

            hoshposh.

            Beware of the leaven of the Pharisee’s and the Sadducee’s, be not deceived by their show of much learning, rather believe only in the spirit of truth. Jesus used parables so that his enemies couldn’t use anything against him and that those who wanted to find the truths of the kingdom to be able to find out on their own. There really is nothing to be afraid of, I’m not trying to offend anyone, but these talks are definitely important, Jesus is more powerful, the things he says will change the world when the people let his words have their transforming meanings in their hearts. Jesus is sovereign of this universe, therefore things will definitely get better in the future, the future is bright. Freewill is God’s choice, we must not beat our views onto others, if christianity can wholeheartedly follow Jesus and his ways, even then the world will be much better. The deal is this, follow goodness and put away anger, do not be passive, rather return good for evil, do not attack any fellow brethren, rather spread joy and progress, keep doing the Father’s will, calmly even to lay down your life in defense for the kingdom of heaven, that wholehearted devotion will have its transforming effects to the world.

            What?

            [1]Where does Jesus say to attack others, to say bad things to one another, [2]where does Jesus say to say to another fellow human being with a divine spirit and a soul that he or she lost God? [3]Who is a man to say what God thinks and does, where does Jesus attack other religions, Jesus was spiritual, Jesus’s religion is spirituality, the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man. [4]The main reason why many people fall away from Christianity is because there are too many half-hearted believers who attack and are self-righteous, only righteousness comes from God, the spirit of truth is real, God is real, only God may judge another being. Do not bar your hearts, in fact whole-heartedly follow Jesus’s teachings, Christianity’s name is even focused on the name Christ, Jesus never taught people to do these things that so many so called followers of Christ does. Clean your hearts out, theres no weakness in following Jesus, in fact following God whole, displays more courage than any army ever will face.

            I’ve added numbers so I can clarify.
            [1] Strawman. Stop making up arguments that I dont hold in order to defeat them.
            [2] Another strawman. Jesus NEVER says ANYONE has a divine Spirit. The Spirit is divine, humans are human.
            [3] Another strawman.
            [4] Baloney. Another strawman.

            Its pointless to discuss this with you. You’re making up arguments that I have never presented, points of view that do not exist, and arguing against them. This is another common sign of cultism.

            Jesusonians (and other cultists) do this all the time, and really, if you want to have a proper discussion, get your facts straight. The problem for you is, if you do, you’ll not be able to continue believing in your crackpot book.

          3. I’ve added numbers so I can clarify.
            [1] Strawman. Stop making up arguments that I dont hold in order to defeat them.
            [2] Another strawman. Jesus NEVER says ANYONE has a divine Spirit. The Spirit is divine, humans are human.
            [3] Another strawman.
            [4] Baloney. Another strawman.

            Its pointless to discuss this with you. You’re making up arguments that I have never presented, points of view that do not exist, and arguing against them. This is another common sign of cultism.

            Jesusonians (and other cultists) do this all the time, and really, if you want to have a proper discussion, get your facts straight. The problem for you is, if you do, you’ll not be able to continue believing in your crackpot book.

            by Geoff

            If you believe in the scriptures and want to defend your viewpoint you would do in accordance with the scriptures, and not call what your very scriptures strawman tactics, I am explaining the viewpoints of the bible and there is no contradiction in what the UB says about what Jesus says, Jesus is divine, man is not, like you said, there is no elite in the gospel, so why impart your viewpoints and try to defend spiritual senses with intellectual viewpoints with dead ends? The gospel is not ever going to be at a stand still, even with all the intellectual knowledge in the world you cannot prove or disprove the gospels or the existence of God, but you very know that God exists, I suggest to try new good tactics in order to save more souls, we all have very important work to do here on Earth and if you believe you would eat and let others eat.

      2. From the UB Jesus was Michael in the flesh. The Bible tels us that Jesus was existing before he was called Jesus in the flesh.

        You must read what Jesus told Nathanael about the scriptures of His time (OT)(In the UB.

        Here a Bible quote and a UB quote to think of something else:

        18And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

        19And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. Luke 1.

        (1323.1) 120:0.1 ASSIGNED by Gabriel to supervise the restatement of the life of Michael when on Urantia and in the likeness of mortal flesh, I, the Melchizedek director of the revelatory commission intrusted with this task, am authorized to present this narrative of certain events which immediately preceded the Creator Son’s arrival on Urantia to embark upon the terminal phase of his universe bestowal experience. To live such identical lives as he imposes upon the intelligent beings of his own creation, thus to bestow himself in the likeness of his various orders of created beings, is a part of the price which every Creator Son must pay for the full and supreme sovereignty of his self-made universe of things and beings.

        http://www.urantia.org/en/urantia-book-standardized/paper-121-times-michaels-bestowal

        1. Jesus is God incarnate. Michael (in the bible) is an angel. According to Scripture Jesus commands michael, and according to rabbinic tradition michael is the Messiah (Jesus) general.

          They are not, and can not be the same person/being.. ever. This notion is not, and can not be supported by anything accepted as authoritative (ie the Bible).
          Give it up.

  10. Ty :
    Wasn’t Christianity a cult when they first started, Jesus didn’t go around writing things because they could be misinterpreted, also, Jesus didn’t go around saying that we should make a religion with my name, he always said he was doing the Father’s business, there is no tell-tale signs of present day cults, every freewill choice is respected, we are on the verge of a bright future, God is present everywhere, only God has power, no one else

    Straw man. This is making up a position and arguing against it. It has no basis in reality.

    Ty :
    Also, this isn’t gnosticism, and if you review all the records closely you can see that the statements are true, the only requirement of salvation is to have faith, even the faintest flicker of faith is acknowledged

    No, it IS gnosticism. It has all the characteristics and trademarks of gnosticism. If it quacks like a duck, its a duck.

    1. It has basis in the written records of scripture, even in gnosticism, even though the truth is scrambled, where is your heart? where is your faith? convictions is not the way, we are not meant to judge, even Jesus said, I do not judge you for there is one who judges for me.

      38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

      Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

      40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

      A house divided on itself cannot stand

      1. The point of this is that the ones “following” and using Jesus name were NOT “Jesus flock”. The house isnt divided, they arent in the house.

        Really, use a proper translation, and use it correctly.

        1. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisee’s and the Sadducee’s, be not deceived by their show of much learning, rather believe only in the spirit of truth. Jesus used parables so that his enemies couldn’t use anything against him and that those who wanted to find the truths of the kingdom to be able to find out on their own. There really is nothing to be afraid of, I’m not trying to offend anyone, but these talks are definitely important, Jesus is more powerful, the things he says will change the world when the people let his words have their transforming meanings in their hearts. Jesus is sovereign of this universe, therefore things will definitely get better in the future, the future is bright. Freewill is God’s choice, we must not beat our views onto others, if christianity can wholeheartedly follow Jesus and his ways, even then the world will be much better. The deal is this, follow goodness and put away anger, do not be passive, rather return good for evil, do not attack any fellow brethren, rather spread joy and progress, keep doing the Father’s will, calmly even to lay down your life in defense for the kingdom of heaven, that wholehearted devotion will have its transforming effects to the world.

        2. If you truly believe you would not be willing to let one perish, and in accordance with the will of the Father, that only Jesus matchessly displayed in his lifetime, in order to win spiritual battles you have to have spiritual power, why waste all your energy trying to beat your viewpoint onto a freewill creature? I mean no harm, continue to go your way if you want, but please do not attack my beliefs, I’m not even attacking yours, I’m even quoting the bibles scriptures. Again, I’m not trying to make any offense to anyone, listen to only Jesus’s words, they contain so much truth and so much potential. Do not stray anymore, do not be of this world, if you have the faith to believe in Jesus then you have much potential also, keep your mind on God. Peace be with you, I’m sleepy, didn’t get that much sleep.

          1. If you believe in the scriptures and want to defend your viewpoint you would do in accordance with the scriptures, and not call what your very scriptures strawman tactics, I am explaining the viewpoints of the bible and there is no contradiction in what the UB says about what Jesus says, Jesus is divine, man is not, like you said, there is no elite in the gospel, so why impart your viewpoints and try to defend spiritual senses with intellectual viewpoints with dead ends? The gospel is not ever going to be at a stand still, even with all the intellectual knowledge in the world you cannot prove or disprove the gospels or the existence of God, but you very know that God exists, I suggest to try new good tactics in order to save more souls, we all have very important work to do here on Earth and if you believe you would eat and let others eat.

            Ty, you’re not explaining viewpoints of the bible at all. You’re explaining what someone has told you someone told them it says. And it is false.
            I have a BA in theology. I am at least a little bit qualified to know what is a load of crap and what isnt. You are just spouting rubbish. Virtually no one holds any of these viewpoints now, or ever has.

            If you truly believe you would not be willing to let one perish, and in accordance with the will of the Father, that only Jesus matchessly displayed in his lifetime, in order to win spiritual battles you have to have spiritual power, why waste all your energy trying to beat your viewpoint onto a freewill creature? I mean no harm, continue to go your way if you want, but please do not attack my beliefs, I’m not even attacking yours, I’m even quoting the bibles scriptures. Again, I’m not trying to make any offense to anyone, listen to only Jesus’s words, they contain so much truth and so much potential. Do not stray anymore, do not be of this world, if you have the faith to believe in Jesus then you have much potential also, keep your mind on God. Peace be with you, I’m sleepy, didn’t get that much sleep.

            More baloney.
            You start with an irrational statement which has nothing at all to do with the discussion, and then accuse me of attacking your beliefs?
            You then say you can say what you want because you quote a few (out of context, badly translated, badly misunderstood) bible passages?
            Then (again) you pretty much take spiritual high ground (like a gnostic) and basically say unless I believe like you, I am “of the world” (like a gnostic).

            I can attack any belief I want. I dont care if it upsets you. If you dont like it DONT READ IT. DONT RESPOND. ok? Simple. Its your choice. If you are going to respond to my post and try and proselytize me into your bogus, anti christian, anti bible, anti God belief system, then you better prepare to defend your system. You expect me to answer with rational well thought out arguments, so you better have some too. I know for a fact you dont, because I have been debating your crowd for several years. Thus I am short of patience, and have heard it all before.

            See you in 2011.
            (ps, keep your responses in one post, or I’ll start ignoring them)

  11. Ok, you can’t push reply if the post is squished like this. What I am doing is not mombo jumbo according to Jesus’s teaching even in the bible. Beware of wolves in sheep’s clothings, by their fruits you shall know them, a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, neither can a bad tree produce good fruit. You enter by the fold only by the door, those who do not enter the door are thief’s and robbers and seek to destroy, Jesus is both the door and the shepard, those who do not enter the door by the way he has made and ordained is a thief and a robber and the sheep will not hear your voice, you are not good shepards unless you lead your flock to green pastures by still waters. Again, I’m speaking to you parables that Jesus ordained to speak to harmful people, maybe you will understand in the future that these behaviors are not mature, mentally and spiritually. The devil and in his arrogance thought to force their views onto others, the truth cannot be argued, the truth will remain the truth no matter how much people will debate, God is real, God was and still watches over us and does not harm our freewill which he has created, why would he create freewill and go against one of his most sacred creations? How does a Universal Father speak to his children while respecting their freewill choices? Living revelations my friend.

    1. [1] what you are saying has NOTHING to do with Jesus teachings in the bible.
      [2] Stop quoting irrelevant out of context scriptures.
      [3] If you dont like what I have to say, exercise your “freewill choices” and stop responding.
      [4] There is no universal father in the bible.
      [5] dont tell me I am arrogant and forcing my views on you. This article was a letter from a friend of mine regarding the testimony of his life and faith, and how he came to realise the UB was false. I SAY NOTHING ABOUT IT. You are the one pushing your views here, thus being hypocritical and typically gnostic.
      [6] You are still arguing against straw men and claiming spiritual highground (gnosticism).
      [7] its 7pm new years eve in NZ. Thus I am in the future. I can not be defeated. I will see you next year, when you are still last year, and you’ll still be wrong.

      1. * What I am saying has everything to do with Jesus’s teaching about the kingdom of God.
        * These are not irrelevant out of context scripture, its the message that counts, the bible is not a spell book, witchcraft is not real.
        * I’ll exercise my freewill choice to do the will of the Father, (Universal Father)
        * The Universal Father is another name for the Father in heaven.
        * You just seem arrogant (I’m saying this because it seems like its obvious, not saying you are, I don’t know you) in defining yourself just because you went to school makes you a master of the Universe and get to decide what goes and what doesn’t go, I am not pushing anything, only defending, the truth is more powerful than anyones anger or attacks.
        * I am not claiming anything you falsely are accusing me of, you are not All-knowing, you do not understand my motives therefore I do not know your motives either, I take no grounds towards yours, you may have good intentions but you are not following Jesus, would Jesus be saying these things? What would Jesus do is a popular saying.
        * Ok, I’ll give you that, the future is bright and maybe its working lol, but have some respect.

        1. * What I am saying has everything to do with Jesus’s teaching about the kingdom of God.

          Incorrect. It has nothing to do with what the bible says in context. Anyone can quote random stuff, change it around, and make it fit what they want.

          * These are not irrelevant out of context scripture, its the message that counts, the bible is not a spell book, witchcraft is not real.

          Yes, it is out of context and irrelevant.

          * I’ll exercise my freewill choice to do the will of the Father, (Universal Father)

          You can do choose to do whatever you like in the name of non-existent deities.

          * The Universal Father is another name for the Father in heaven.

          No, its a made up name for a non-existent deity.

          * You just seem arrogant (I’m saying this because it seems like its obvious, not saying you are, I don’t know you) in defining yourself just because you went to school makes you a master of the Universe and get to decide what goes and what doesn’t go, I am not pushing anything, only defending, the truth is more powerful than anyones anger or attacks.

          I didnt define myself as “going to school”. Just pointed out that I am actually qualified to know whether an interpretation of scripture is possibly true. You obviously are not. That doesnt make me arrogant, just competent.
          At least you admit you admit you started with the ad homenim.

          * I am not claiming anything you falsely are accusing me of, you are not All-knowing, you do not understand my motives therefore I do not know your motives either, I take no grounds towards yours, you may have good intentions but you are not following Jesus, would Jesus be saying these things? What would Jesus do is a popular saying.

          I dont live my life based on “popular sayings”.

          * Ok, I’ll give you that, the future is bright and maybe its working lol, but have some respect.

          I respect the truth, therefore I can not respect the UB or anyone who follows it.

          1. Incorrect. It has nothing to do with what the bible says in context. Anyone can quote random stuff, change it around, and make it fit what they want.

            So by saying this you say that what you say goes and what everyone else says doesn’t? Don’t you know about psychology? People perceive mostly about themselves onto others, this is you speaking, Jesus spoke very plainly to us, you cannot turn it around into a message of fear for control over people, Jesus is not afraid of anything, you cannot find fear in his voice, he is far greater than the person you portray in your immovable mind

          2. Then you sir are a modern day Pharisee, you do not feed your flock if you have any with good spiritual food, and you would rather have people controlled by fear, instead of growing, the truth will be seen by those who know the truth, you seem like you haven’t experienced anything at all spiritually, or if you did, you do not understand it. Spirituality is not a prison, it is to set free the spiritual prisoners. And forget not: We have made no direct attack upon the persons or upon the authority of those who sit in Moses’ seat; we only offered them the new light, which they have so vigorously rejected. We have assailed them only by the denunciation of their spiritual disloyalty to the very truths which they profess to teach and safeguard. We clashed with these established leaders and recognized rulers only when they threw themselves directly in the way of the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom to the sons of men. And even now, it is not we who assail them, but they who seek our destruction. Do not forget that you are commissioned to go forth preaching only the good news. You are not to attack the old ways; you are skillfully to put the leaven of new truth in the midst of the old beliefs. Let the Spirit of Truth do his own work. Let controversy come only when they who despise the truth force it upon you. But when the willful unbeliever attacks you, do not hesitate to stand in vigorous defense of the truth which has saved and sanctified you.

  12. I don’t know Andre, but I appreciate his testimony. Most UB readers like myself would be glad that he has found a place where he feels he is spiritually uplifted and of greatest service.

    I’m surprised by what Geoff said – “As I said, there is nothing really new in the UB. Just different names for things which were around in popular thought at the time. Many of which, as I said, have been around for thousands of years in one form or another. None true. ”

    None true? So absolutist and negative! Just think what was true in the minds of some ‘gentiles’ who Jesus met. Of one he said something like “I have not found such faith in all of Israel”.

    Andre to his credit still realizes there are some potent truths in the UB.

    And what is this about a cult? Surely Christianity is more of a cult, and I say that in the positive sense. Getting UB readers together has been liked to herding cats. They tend to be independent types. And yes any intellectualization that lacks the indescribable joy of actually sharing your inner life with God is most unfortunate, whether with Christians or UB readers. WIth the UB there is just so much more to engage the intellect that it seems to be more of a problem. But I have known Christians in my day as an evangelical Christian that were far more interested in doctrine than in the living fruits of the Spirit.

    Getting back to cults, here is a text from the UB which I find hits the spot very well:

    87.7.7 The old cults were too egocentric; the new must be the outgrowth of applied love. The new cult must, like the old, foster sentiment, satisfy emotion, and promote loyalty; but it must do more: It must facilitate spiritual progress, enhance cosmic meanings, augment moral values, encourage social development, and stimulate a high type of personal religious living. The new cult must provide supreme goals of living which are both temporal and eternal — social and spiritual.”

    1. There is more than one definition of the word “cult”. A “cult” can refer generally to a religion – biblical scholars refer to “the cult of religion in the OT” for example. That is, it generally referred to “religious practices”. It is, in this sense not negative. So yes, christianity is a cult of religion in a non negative sense.

      HOWEVER, UB is a “cult” in the sense that it is an organisation that brainwashes and indoctrinates (kinds of minds control), claims “special knowledge” (creates fear), etc.

      ps, I would suggest you were never an “evangelical christian” – you were just someone who went to church for awhile.

  13. My history: I’m born in a protestant beleifs family in 1956 and i have began to seek for if i was saved from around the age of eight years old. After an sexual abuse at height by a mennonite brethen that has did three years of biblical studys i have began to seek the help of God. At 13 i have tryed to read the NT by the bigening and it was not intersting (Genealogy) I have met a mennonite Brethen at school and began to attend his christian group and reading everyday my father’s bible.
    I wanted to do the will of God and to be sure that i was saved. It was not clear what was to be saved.
    But finaly it’s by wanting sincerely to do His will and to become perfect as He is perfect.
    Actualy i have the assurance that my soul will survive after my physical dead. At 18 i have leaved the group to do the will of God and the church as culpabiled me because they were saying to not leave the church as it is written in the NT in a verse. etc. I was feeling guilty to have leaved this small christian group to be free to fraternise with any other kinf of christians. I was feeling so guilty because of what the pastor was saying that i have been hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital and many times and finaly they have send me an excomunication letter. I was not in rebellion against God and His will but they acused me to have sinned and rejected me. I was attending an other church at this time with my family and i have became suisidar because of the letter and was hospitalised again and opened my arms with a razor blade because of this acusation and letter. It has been almost impossible for me after that to feel confortable in a religious group or any group at all for long time. Six years ago i found the Urantia Book and i thank God for it but don’t ask me to attend a christian church or an other except maybe meditating group.
    Claude Martel.

    1. Hi Claude,

      Thanks for sharing.
      There are a number of problems with what you said, for example having assurance that your “soul” will be eternal.

      All that aside I am sorry you have been traumatised by people who claim to be Christian. I do not however, think it is logical or rational to base one’s belief in something mainly because you did not feel comfortable elsewhere and this new “thing” did not mean you had to feel uncomfortable.
      True faith SHOULD be uncomfortable, if not at least because it is so opposed to how you “used” to be.

      1. About the assurance that my soul will survive after my physical dead is because i have consacreted my life to do His will a long time ago. We call this walking with God.

        Here some UB quotes to read:

        (381.1) 34:6.7 Those who have received and recognized the indwelling of God have been born of the Spirit. “You are the temple of God, and the spirit of God dwells in you.” It is not enough that this spirit be poured out upon you; the divine Spirit must dominate and control every phase of human experience.

        (381.2) 34:6.8 It is the presence of the divine Spirit, the water of life, that prevents the consuming thirst of mortal discontent and that indescribable hunger of the unspiritualized human mind. Spirit-motivated beings “never thirst, for this spiritual water shall be in them a well of satisfaction springing up into life everlasting.” Such divinely watered souls are all but independent of material environment as regards the joys of living and the satisfactions of earthly existence. They are spiritually illuminated and refreshed, morally strengthened and endowed.

        (381.3) 34:6.9 In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps.

        1. Claude,

          No point quoting the UB to me. It’s meaningless drivel as far as I’m concerned. It has about as much authority and insight on reality as my dog does.

          1. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.Paul.

            25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks.Paul?
            il y a environ une semaine · Supprimer le message

            God is our Father who loves all His children-creatures. It’s by accepting this fact by faith that it become real in our life.

            Truth, Beauty and Goodness are of God.

  14. Apologies for the late reply. (My email server trashed the notification, so I didn’t get it until I clued in to what was happening.)

    Geoff, the UB is a book, but maybe you are referring to the Urantia Foundation. This organization has been heavy handed in the past suing readers over perceived copyright infringement, but I don’t understand why you say they are brainwashing or indoctrinating anybody. Special knowledge? It’s all there in the book for anyone to read. People read the book, and a small percentage go once a week or once a month to study groups in local homes, and a much smaller percentage have membership in a few UB based organizations like the Urantia Foundation or the Fellowship or the UAI. Fewer yet attend yearly conferences. How is this control? Readers are generally freethinkers, much more freethinking than the typical churchgoer in my experience.

    Geoff, your suggestion that I was not really an evangelical Christian but someone who warmed a pew is very off the mark. That’s like saying that Saul was not a Jew before he met the risen Christ and became Paul. 😉

    Like Paul I could be foolish and boast over some specifics of my evangelicalism, but perhaps later.

    Like Paul I even might consider it dung in comparison to knowing Christ. And no, reading the UB does not equate to knowing Christ.

    I would like to make some comments on some specific things Andre mentioned, but apparently he has chosen not to participate in discussion over his letter. (Being blind does not make it easy for him.) So I’m not sure if it is appropriate.

    But one thing for now: The UB never says that everyone should take salvation for granted. But if someone is a God knower, then yes he should take his salvation for granted, just as a son should take for granted that his father has good intentions for him. If my two boys were not sure of my intention for their future good, then that speaks badly of me or them or both. Perish the thought!

    The prodigal son was a son before he went astray, and after. God sends forth his Spirit and waits for his sons to come to their senses and come home to their Father. Those who chose not to come home are not worthy sons, and unfortunately are lost. The Father no doubt grieves.

    But sending them to an eternal hell of torment? Andre wants to see justice done to, say, Muslim extremists who kill people, and so he speaks of hell. But what of the God indifferent person down the street? Does he suffer as much as the suicide bomber in hell?

    Geoff, you talked about the UB creating fear, but I don’t see it. Christianity plays the fear card. Oh yes, I have read Edwards’ sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”. I drank it all up back in the day. But there I go starting to boast.

    A blessed new year of spiritual growth to all,

    Claude, I’m proud to know you as a fellow man of faith. And a Canadian to boot!

  15. Mark,

    No, i am referring to everyting UB. It is a cult, indoctrinating and claiming special knowledge. Its been claimed multiple times just in the posts here. “The UB is for those who are willing to read it”, blah blah blah.

    What I said about you is NOTHING like saying Paul was not a jew prior to salvation. I would have had to say it was like you being a mexican prior to you being a canadian.
    Being a Jew is to belong to a nation.

    Andre can not respond. He cant read these posts.
    I wish you lot would stop creating strawmen. One sermon by one guy does not reflect “christianity”, just like your “opinion” on the UB does not reflect EVERYONE who believes in its tripe.

  16. Text to speech software is free on a mac for the visually impaired, so I am supposing it is more Andre’s choice to not engage in responses to his letter than an inability to respond.

    But that’s fine. You see one of the primary teachings of the UB is respect for the free will choices of people. Coercion is frowned upon. A person chooses to renounce the UB? Fine. No UB reader thinks reading the UB is necessary for salvation. Far from it. Yes the UB claims to present information of a revelatory nature, but Christians claim the same thing of the bible, even moreso. Muslims go even further with the Quran. So I don’t know why you are using this point at all.

    Being a Jew is to belong to a nation? Many Jews around the world don’t belong to the nation of Israel. It is a religious cultural tradition, not necessarily a national or genetic identity.

    Yes of course Edward’s sermon from a few hundred years ago does not reflect the current thinking on hell. Thank God Christianity evolves and is varied. But I’ve heard some preachers as recently as ten years ago lament that hell was not preached about anymore. The idea is always in the background: people are being ‘saved’ from God’s wrath and hell.

    Cults (in the negative sense) are about fear and control, and that’s just not happening in matters UB.

    If you are familiar with: Navigators, Campus Crusade for Christ (now Power to Change), Hal Lindsey, Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, Amillennialism, pretrib, posttrib, midtrib raptures, Calvinism, Author Pink, George Whitfield, Charles Welsey, Spurgeon, Finney, AW Tozer, Andrew Murray, Witness Lee and Nee, Neil Anderson, Clarke Pinnock, Frank Viola, Bob Sorge, Benny Hinn, John Wimber, Vineyard, Toronto Blessing, Graham Cooke, Michael Talbot, Michael Green, Steve Greene, Maranatha singers, Silverwind, Amy Grant, Chris Tomlin, Rich Mullins, Third Day, Bob Fitts, Stoneleigh, Graham Kendrick, Hillsong, etc, etc, etc, you’ll get an idea of the variety of what I have intimately experienced in the evangelical scene over the years. Deacon for at least five years in baptist church. Led home cell groups, house church, Sunday school teacher for about ten years, you get the idea. I never made a big deal about leaving these things, and I left on friendly terms and am still in contact with some. Actually I still love worshiping with some great christian music.

    And you? (if you want to share)

  17. Joel :
    Truth is of God, but lies and wickedness, falseness and corruption is of the devil, which is where the UB came from.

    Belief may not be able to resist doubt and withstand fear, but faith is always triumphant over doubting, for faith is both positive and living. The positive always has the advantage over the negative, truth over error, experience over theory, spiritual realities over the isolated facts of time and space. The convincing evidence of this spiritual certainty consists in the social fruits of the spirit which such believers, faithers, yield as a result of this genuine spiritual experience. Said Jesus: “If you love your fellows as I have loved you, then shall all men know that you are my disciples.”

      1. Every one has beliefs, jews, muslims, baptists, pentecotists, anglicans, mormons etc but what is important as a human is to have a living faith in God.

        God is always the same but we humans have a lot of beleifs. The personal relationship with Him is what is real and important. More we worship Him and more we become has Him.

        Here’s a jewish testemonie:

        The Urantia Book from a Jewish Perspective

        By Martin Greenhut Reader of the Urantia Book since 1970

        I am a graduate of Talmudical Academy High School and of Yeshiva
        College in New York City. I also attended the Hebrew Teachers
        Institute at Yeshiva for six years. For my entire youth I was
        intensely active in Jewish life and was a practicing orthodox Yeshiva
        student until my senior year in college when I chose to give up my
        orthodoxy and its consequent segregation from the rest of the world. I
        became what is known in Israel today as “a secular Jew”. It simply
        means that I gave up my orthodox involvements and practices and lived
        as an agnostic… although not hostile to religion… just not able to
        relate to the various sectarian doctrines. I believed that If God
        existed he didn’t love any people on earth any better than the others
        and certainly wouldn’t exclude anyone from eternal salvation just
        because they were born into the wrong religion.

        As a Jew, the obstacle to relating to Christianity was my resentment
        for the anti-semetic confrontations that were thrust upon me by
        Christians. I grew up during WWII and as a teenager I saw the first
        filmed evidence of the Nazi Holocost that was presented as evidence at
        the Nuremberg trials. Whenever I heard quotations from “The New
        Testament” I regarded them as teachings hostile to the Jews and
        consequently would not read it.

        I lived a life dedicated to improving the world and it brought me into
        contact with all kinds of people. When working with Dr. Martin Luther
        King Jr.’s movement in the civil rights struggle I often found myself
        in churches of the blacks and that is where I was first introduced to
        the love of Jesus.

        I was not satisfied that things were as we were taught. I always lived
        in hope and never left the “Kriat Shema” behind. “Hear o’ Israel, the
        Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord, your God
        with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your might.” I
        just knew that He was out there, but I didn’t know where.

        As it turned out, my search for truth brought the Urantia Book into my
        hands and since that day I have been taken up with its study and in
        the practice of its teachings.

        Getting into the Urantia Book meant that I had to be open to new truth
        and this process has meant an ongoing expansion of my understanding of
        life and of the problems that we are facing in this world. It brought
        me to the doors of faith which are opened as I knock.

        The greatest problem that I had as a Jew were in the teachings about
        the Paradise Trinity but a careful reading of Book One of the Urantia
        Book dispelled these doubts with no problem. As for Jesus, the Urantia
        Book gave me an opportunity to meet him as a Gallilean Jew. I didn’t
        ever have to become a “Christian”. If anybody asks me to this day what
        my religion is I unhesitatingly tell them that I am a Jew.

        Knowing Jesus as a jew is an unspeakable blessing. The Urantia Book
        reveals Jesus’ Jewish upbringing, education and racial outlook in such
        a way as to allow me to identify with him as a Jew. He had the same
        kind of home and schooling as did I, went to the synagogue as did I,
        and lived in a jewish culture which has not significantly changed to
        this day. The prayers and biblical passages that he quoted were the
        same ones that I used, he attended seders and read from the Torah, had
        a Bar Mitzvah and his teacher was a chazan. His apostles were
        Gallilean Jews and his earliest followers were also jews.

        The distortions that Pauline Christianity imposeed on the Teachings of
        Jesus along with the mistakes of his apostles who preached a religion
        about Jesus rather than the religion of Jesus compromised the Gospel
        Message. I find Christianity’s doctrines of the virgin birth and the
        doctrine of atonement by the shedding of blood (the crucifixion of
        Jesus as a sacrificial offering for the sins of man) both alienating
        and degrading of the wondrous bestowal and the life of truth that
        Jesus lived here among us. The Revelation of God’s love in the human
        life of the Son of Man will continue to enrich us spiritually in all
        eternity.

        As for the rest of the Urantia Book, its revelations are both
        challenging and eddifying, inspiring and supreme.

        In my opinion, any Jew who gets into the Urantia book will not only
        gain a profound understanding of our religion but also has a head
        start in understanding the teachings of our Lord and Creator who lived
        here as one of us and revealed the Father in Heaven as he lived a
        human life among us.

        There is some especially interesting Jewish Lore that relates to the
        Urantia revelation which has significance to me.

        Pentecost is the Jewish Festival of Shevuoth. It is the Hag
        HaBikkurim… The festival of the First Fruits. It is also called
        Z’man Ma-tahn Torateinu… the time of the giving of our Torah.

        The day of Pentecost on Which Jesus poured His Spirit of Truth upon
        all flesh is the same day celebrated by Jews for the giving of the
        Torah to the world through Moses.

        *

        Passover which celebrates the liberation of the Jews from slavery was
        the occasion on which Jesus chose to celebrate the liberation of the
        spiritual captives by the rite of the Supper of Remembrance. The
        Matzah, symbol of the escape to freedom and the wine, the “Cup of
        Blessing” at the Passover seder now become the symbol of the Bread of
        Life; the truth of God, and the Living Water; The Spirit of God which
        ever flows throughout all creation.

        Having celebrated Passover seders all my life, it was a great
        experience to ponder these new meanings at seders after reading the
        Urantia Book. I believe that the Passover seder must have been Jesus’
        favorite ritual and his inauguration of the meatless Passover seder is
        a very pointed teaching about sacrifice and worship. I have celebrated
        many Suppers of Remembrance since I have become a Urantian and never
        have these special meanings escaped me.

        *

        Hannukah is another special celebration for me as a Jewish Urantian.
        The miracle of Hannukah; the acknowledgement of God’s participation in
        the celebration of the re-dedication of the Temple, only a few
        generations before the birth of Jesus, takes on very special
        significance when we realize that the stage was being set for him to
        come to the temple and reveal the Father to the world.

        *

        It seems to me that there will be a corner in the new cult of Urantia
        for a synagogue. I call it “Kehilat K’far Nachum”. The congregation of
        Capernaum, The synagogue where Jesus announced his public ministry.
        The original synagogue of Capernaum was recently unearthed and
        discovered to have a plaque on its cornerstone memorializing a Roman
        Centurion who donated funds for its construction.

        http://urantia-indonesia.tripod.com/galeri/doc778.htm

  18. Ok, since you believe in inspiration, then lets see you write a revelation of the bible, how many followers will you get from your “new religion”? It will be one that keeps the religious wars on-going, since you have no respect for anyone that does not see your point of view, you seem intelligent, but are ignorant and arrogant to honestly think that you know more than God, that your view of God should be pushed onto others, and even beaten in their heads, you display anger, resentment, fear of the true gospel. I know you fear how people would attack you if you truly followed Christ, they would keep attacking and your only choice would be to defend kindly, to return good for evil calmly, all the way up to death, many fear this, and return to their animal instincts and attack the attackers, but Jesus doesn’t want us to attack anyone even if their attacking us, in order to preach God’s gospel you have to follow the gospel, and respect every God created creation, even your enemies, love your enemies, you are afraid of following whole-heartedly, it is very plain since you do not have the courage to even display love towards your so-called enemies. God does work in mysterious ways, yes, but it is only to those who don’t take the time in their own hearts to understand this, no one else can do that for you.

    I’m asking you this question, would you die calmly and even show love for the enemy that did this to you for the belief and how Jesus himself told us how to live? If the time comes in one persons life to make that decision, will you make it? No one knows when their time is up, and if someone would persecute them like this, so the question is also, will you be ready? Will you be able to look judgement in the eye and say that you have even loved your enemies, withstood the test of life, and choose the will of the Father? Can you honestly say that you will know exactly what the Father will do with you?

    Now, these all are beliefs that co-operate with the UB and the bible, these views are the same, however, since man has a limited view he can never prove these wrong or right, he only has to have faith to be saved, faith in Jesus, Jesus has faith in us, so how can we ever fail knowing that Jesus has so much faith in mankind?

      1. Joel if i tell you to never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies — men, women, and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men, and they are not the word of God.

        You agree with this or not?

        Thank you.

          1. Didn’t moses slay men, women and children? What about Abraham? you can see that as the people over time become to know more of what God is like, and they even turned away from sacrificing their own first born sons, one person had his son stand under a drawbridge, these are of men, not very hold men. Some that knew God knew that he is a merciful Father of all people, not with prejudice to one people or generation, but for all people. What I understand that the true revelations are from God’s messengers and Jesus himself, the very words that they speak are the true revelations. I’m saying you cannot rely on man, man is just starting, God sends his messengers from heaven to minister and guide us. Man is fallible, that is why I and Jesus say blind leading the blind, you must only follow Christ.

      2. How would you explain when Cain, the son of Adam, (first generation) went over into the land of Nod and got himself a wife? And the Sons of God marrying the daughters of men? How do you explain the dinosaurs, fossils, all the trillions of different species? Why is it that we are progressive? Even in spirituality? The records also say that John the baptist says that the lowest being in heaven is greater than the highest person on Earth. So why justify that we as humans who start at the very bottom would know how the Universe works, without even expanding our minds in order to understand it for ourselves? We each have our own unique understandings of how things work. There is much more to God than people will ever realize, how then can a finite mind understand the infinite mind of God? By ascending his way. All of these questions are asked by the newer generations, and they will continue to ask them and turn away if the followers are bitter and attack anything new like so many are doing. That is a lot of souls to be losing.

        1. Ty :
          How would you explain when Cain, the son of Adam, (first generation) went over into the land of Nod and got himself a wife? And the Sons of God marrying the daughters of men? How do you explain the dinosaurs, fossils, all the trillions of different species? Why is it that we are progressive? Even in spirituality? The records also say that John the baptist says that the lowest being in heaven is greater than the highest person on Earth. So why justify that we as humans who start at the very bottom would know how the Universe works, without even expanding our minds in order to understand it for ourselves? We each have our own unique understandings of how things work. There is much more to God than people will ever realize, how then can a finite mind understand the infinite mind of God? By ascending his way. All of these questions are asked by the newer generations, and they will continue to ask them and turn away if the followers are bitter and attack anything new like so many are doing. That is a lot of souls to be losing.

          1. Cain: nothing to explain here.
          2. Sons of God: nothing to explain here, other than “sons of God” in it’s context refers to “despotic rulers” along the lines of Gilgamesh in the Summarian document.
          3. Evolution: nothing to explain here. I dont have a problem with it.
          4. Progressive spirituality: strawman, irrelevant.
          5. John the baptist and some drivel: strawman, irrelevant.
          6. Our own unique understandings: hoshposh, another straw man. As a Christian I believe God determines truth, not humans. And the basis of that truth is the Scripture.
          7. More to God: another strawman. Honestly. Even the new atheists know more about this than you, and they are as think as 2 short planks.
          8. Being conformed to the image of Christ means rejecting dirbble like the UB.

          Now its your turn. I will only answer if you answer this ONE question, and succinctly. Otherwise I am going to stop.
          If the UB is true, why did not not get correct the number of Chromosomes in the Human cell? the UB claims 48 chromosomes, when there is 46.
          Note, until 1955 (just prior to the publication of the UB) 48 was how many was thought, but that was incorrect.

          1. It said 48 sex chromosomes, it explains it right if you know how to decipher meanings, the truth is there and you do not see it, Jesus said that it is better to tie a weight to your feet and cast yourself into the sea than to lead one of his children astray. Why do you say when talking about spiritual things about the scripture irrelevant and hoshposh, when the entire meaning of the scriptures are based on spiritual things? Sons of God marrying the daughters of men are in the scriptures. These things you cannot see with logic, these are not of this world, Jesus is not of this world, the kingdom is not moved forwards with force, or worldy glory.

          2. “there are forty-eight units of pattern control—trait determiners—in the sex cells of human reproduction.” Trait determiners, isn’t the combo XY a chromosome for a genetic makeup for a male and isn’t XX combo of trait determiners a chromosome makeup for a female?

  19. The muslims say that such record are from God too:

    2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

    2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you.

    3:028 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers.

    4:074 Fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

    4:076 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil.

    4:089 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them

    4:091 If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

    4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

    4:144 Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?

    5:033 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.

    5:051 Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. … He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.

    8:012 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

    8:059-060 And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them.

    8:065 Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

    9:005 Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.

    9:012 If they … assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief. … Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them

    9:029 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

    9:073 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.

    9:111 Believers … shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an.

    9:123 Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you.

    http://religiousdebate.wikidot.com/troubling-koran-verses

    We say that God is pure love then where these words
    come from?

      1. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

        Peace and love.

          1. The random post of the day is:

            Believe

            If you would but believe that my Father loves you with an infinite love, then you are in the kingdom of God.”

            So haha, there you are wrong again, don’t get me wrong, I like talking about God and spirituality, it is not a burden

          2. I don’t have his permision but here it is : the testemonie of Hamid Mazdeh:

            I was born and raised in Iran. I came to the U.S. in 1978 and was
            introduced to the Urantia Book in 1990. At that time I was a radical
            Moslem with progressive political views. What I saw through my reading
            in the Urantia Book was far from any so-called divine revelation that
            I had ever seen. The pervasive, and heart and mind penetrating message
            of the Urantia Book which in essence is achievement of divine
            perfection and establishment of love and brotherhood among all human
            beings was truly life changing to me and it affected me so much that I
            decided to devote my life to spreading its teachings. I am also
            translating The Urantia Book to Farsi…

            25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks.

            Me: The Bible was my truth book for more than 30 years but now that i have read all the UB six years ago and accepted it inteligently i have a very great peace within and understand a lot of things that were not clear in the Bible.

            Peace and Love.

  20. Ty :
    Didn’t moses slay men, women and children? What about Abraham? you can see that as the people over time become to know more of what God is like, and they even turned away from sacrificing their own first born sons, one person had his son stand under a drawbridge, these are of men, not very hold men. Some that knew God knew that he is a merciful Father of all people, not with prejudice to one people or generation, but for all people. What I understand that the true revelations are from God’s messengers and Jesus himself, the very words that they speak are the true revelations. I’m saying you cannot rely on man, man is just starting, God sends his messengers from heaven to minister and guide us. Man is fallible, that is why I and Jesus say blind leading the blind, you must only follow Christ.

    You dont follow Christ, you follow the UB. Please at least be honest.

    As far as we know, Moses only killed one person, an Egyptian.

    1. As far as you know, you do not know my very intentions or thoughts, so you cannot control whether or not I follow Jesus, only Jesus can say that, you are not a master of the Universe.

      Also, Moses lead the 12 tribes out of Israel, and they did have wars among them, they slayed men, women and children, and even when one person was having relations with the enemy tribe he slew him in the very act. Its all written there in plain sight, you can’t make that into something Godly or holy, you can’t turn that around for your control based on fear for the ones who see plainly and with a anointed eye.

      1. Firstly, I can tell you that you do not follow Jesus, as if you did, you would not be spamming this blog with comments on the UB.

        Secondly, I’d like the verse for that.

        No one has to make it Godly or Holy. Human beings are not God, we’re human, and we do bad stuff. Also, you need to put these things in the context; historical, sociological, etc

        Now, I’ve had enough. Spamming this blog with your rubbish is all very well for a day or two, but honestly, you seem to think that (and this is common for jesusonians) the more words, posts, and irrational comments you make, the more right you are. You’re not.
        Go away.

  21. Ty :
    The random post of the day is:
    Believe
    If you would but believe that my Father loves you with an infinite love, then you are in the kingdom of God.”
    So haha, there you are wrong again, don’t get me wrong, I like talking about God and spirituality, it is not a burden

    It seems you are correct, you do like to talk. You just dont appear to care about the truth.

  22. Ty :
    It said 48 sex chromosomes, it explains it right if you know how to decipher meanings, the truth is there and you do not see it, Jesus said that it is better to tie a weight to your feet and cast yourself into the sea than to lead one of his children astray. Why do you say when talking about spiritual things about the scripture irrelevant and hoshposh, when the entire meaning of the scriptures are based on spiritual things? Sons of God marrying the daughters of men are in the scriptures. These things you cannot see with logic, these are not of this world, Jesus is not of this world, the kingdom is not moved forwards with force, or worldy glory.

    No it didnt say “sex chromosomes”.

    Its a fake. It was written by men, in the early 1900’s and contains all the errors you’d expect from that time.
    End of discussion.
    Night.

  23. Geoff asked, “If the UB is true, why did not not get correct the number of Chromosomes in the Human cell? the UB claims 48 chromosomes, when there is 46.
    Note, until 1955 (just prior to the publication of the UB) 48 was how many was thought, but that was incorrect.”

    The UB says there are 48 “trait determiners” in human sex cells. (It used the word chromosomes in another place, so maybe the word choice of ‘trait determiners’ here was deliberate?) We know human sperm and ova have just 23 chromosomes. So the UB text seems wrong on two levels. Here is my contrived way to reconcile the two. How many different types of chromosomes do humans possess? Answer: 24. chromosomes 1 to 22, the X chromosome and the Y chromosome. Now to make these 24 chromosomes into 48 ‘trait determiners” one could do this: Imagine during transciption the double stranded helix unzipping, as it is known to do. So what was a double helix becomes two separated strands of DNA, at least where transcription is taking place. As far as I know, each strand is capable of being ‘read’ and transcribed into mRNA. (Each strand would be read in opposite directions though.) If true, there are thus 48 types of DNA strands that can be decoded in human sex cells. In any *one* sex cell there would be only 46 DNA strands however.

    Yes I know this sounds rather strained, and it does remind me of the days I bent over backwards trying to reconcile certain bible texts with each other and with what seems to be true.

    There are other problems with the science and cosmology presented in the UB that should give anyone inclined to the sciences a headache. But the more spiritual teachings seem – dare I say it? – inspired.

  24. I’m sorry Geoff…Matt 23:24 you srain out the nat and sallow the camel..you condemn the Urantia Book even if you don’t agree with it all…you insinuate it has no value…when there is a sublime beauty that prevades in its pages…all great books
    that bring us to a personal relationship with God are valid…Has your blindedness left you blind to the UBs spiritual content..you struggle over words
    do you really believe that unless I utter the name Jesus or God…or Allah or Yaweh…I’m any less entitled to the Creators love…theologists who huddle together with only those of a common doctrine suffer the message of Jesus…by their fruits
    you will know them..Jesus was not a theologen..he was a dynamic pro trayal of His Fathers’ love…He healed the sick and fed the poor…if you want Gods’
    Love quit squabbeling over definitions and learn to externalize Gods love to your fellow man…I going to bet you have no children because a good and loving parent knows the nature of God’s love and mercifulness..in my experience most of the childless adults I’ve known are mostly self serving but not all some have seemed to learn that love is the selfless act of sharing kindness and tolerence to their follow man even if their strangers to their
    beliefs…Mark Smith

  25. Mark,

    Jesus wasn’t a theologian? He certainly went to school and studied scripture like every good little Jewish boy.

    There is no sublime beauty in lies, and the UB is a book fabricated and made up by human beings. That makes it deceitful, malicious, and erroneous. You cant change it, sorry. It’s broken.

  26. Aloha

    if Jesus stands at he door of our hearts and knocks then what the URANTIA Papers have taught me is that:

    Jesus in me loves Jesus in you

    that if the first two words of the Lords prayer are “Our Father” then we are all brothers and sisters because we share a common parent and Jesus directs us to love one another

    that the great law of human fairness ‘do to others as you would that they do to you’ is, in fact, the law of the universe and the most common and unifying factor in the majority of this worlds religions [the major exception being satanism which teaches do unto others that which they do to you]

    that Jesus reiterated just two commandments as sufficient 1. love the Lord with all your heart and mind and strength[soul] 2. love your neighbor as you love yourself

    That we are not authorized to judge one another but to love one another

    that a house divided against itself can not stand whether it be Christians or Jews or Muslims or believers of the Urantia Papers

    that we would all do better to get the beam of judgmental religious discrimination out of our own eye than to try to pluck the mote of differing views of God from our loving brother’s eye

    many wars have come from religious absolutism I like to sing the following verse to the Kennel Ration Dog Food Jingle to illustrate that fact

    my god is bigger than your god
    my god is bigger than yours
    my god is bigger so we kill Christians
    my god is bigger than yours

    my god is bigger than your god
    my god is bigger than yours
    my god is bigger so we kill Jews
    my god is bigger than yours

    my god is bigger than your god
    my god is bigger than yours
    my god is bigger so we kill Muslims
    my god is bigger than yours

    Our God is love
    Our God is love
    love one another don’t kill nobody
    Our God is love

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  27. Aloha Geoff

    are you saying that Jesus is not in you?? Did you not let Him in ??

    are you sure that you want to make that choice??[smile]

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  28. Aloha Geoff

    “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Rev 3:19-21.

    according to the above quote attributed to Jesus “I will come IN to him” you are seemingly wrong as it is Jesus the person who comes in to share a personal relationship with the believer

    on the day of Pentecost Jesus bestowed the Spirit of Truth and it is through this Spirit of Truth that Jesus dwells within us and ‘sups’ with us

    your interpretation diminishes the personal role Jesus plays in our individual lives and that is a grave error

    Please don’t play with semantics and the parsing of plain language to exercise a denial of the presence of Christ just for the sake of appearing to want to win the point such is not good for either your soul nor the Truth

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

    1. My Interpretation does nothing of the sort.

      Christian orthodoxy teaches that Jesus is a Man. He is fully human and fully divine. How on EARTH does a MAN live inside another person? Jesus can no more live inside you than I can.

      Jesus will “come into him” through the Spirit of God. PLease do not proof text. Read JOhn 14.

  29. Geoff, There are many spirits of God and all perfectly coordonated with Him. God is the universal Father, the Source of all that exist, The Eternal Son (The second person of the trinity) and the Infinite Spirit (or Holy Spirit)
    There are different names for them but this is not the most important. In our spere or reality we are in relation with the three spirits of the Trinity. We have a God’s frament from the universal father, the spirit of Truth (the spirit of Jesus) around us and the Holy spirit. God is love and we are always loved but it’s to us to accept their influences, their love.

    I am very glad to have found the Urantia book because it’s explain a lot of facts about what has been happened in the past and who is realy Jesus etc.

    You are the capitaine of your life.

  30. Aloha Geoff

    do you really think that Jesus is ONLY a man??

    “He is fully human and fully divine. How on EARTH does a MAN live inside another person?”

    by being fully Divine

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

    1. According to Scripture and Orthodox Christian Teaching, Jesus is both fully Human, AND fully Divine. He is not one or the other. He remains fully human, a man, and fully divine. His flesh was resurrected. His flesh can not be in your or my flesh.

      Your comment makes no sense.

  31. Aloha Geoff

    to help you understand why I use the word Aloha and its special significance to me and any conversation in which I use it

    the word Aloha is often misunderstood in modern westernized understanding as hello or good bye such is just wrong altho the word is used as hello or goodbye it means significantly more than that

    The Hawaiians are a very spiritual folk

    the word Ha means breath the basis of life and of spirit;

    a more complete understanding of the word Aloha is to say that I give you the first breath of my spirit that our encounter is intended as a communing of our spirits

    in other words I speak from my heart and spirit to your heart and spirit in truth and with love

    I live at the 2300 foot level above Kealakekua Bay [Hawaiian for ‘the path of God’, or walk with God] just 600 feet north of the 19.5 degrees North latitude in Captain Cook Hawaii and have for many years

    when I was ordained in 1973 [I am licensed to perform marriages in and by the state of Hawaii; I’ve married ’em and I’ve buried ’em — tho marriage is usually not the cause of death {wink}] I had been a net fisherman on Kauai island and such experience has increased my understanding of the lives of the apostles and Jesus

    this is said in sincerity and with respect as all my statements on this blog have been and will continue to be

    as to my use of the title Rev. it is just a reminder to me of my obligations to Jesus and not an expectation that anyone revere me

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  32. Aloha Geoff

    “His flesh can not be in your or my flesh. ”

    but His Spirit can

    His humanity does not limit His Divinity as you are implying

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  33. Dennis,

    Jesus’ “spirit” is not separable from his body, it is not omnipresent. It can not be in your or me, as it is in Jesus.

    Only the Spirit of God is ominpresent, and THAT is the Spirit within me.

    You can have whatever spirit you want, but unless it is God’s its not going to be of any good to you.

  34. Aloha Geoff

    seems you have just said Jesus is not God

    did He not say that one who has seen Him has seen the Father

    “Jesus’ “spirit” is not separable from his body, it is not omnipresent”

    do you dare to limit God??

    is not that above your pay grade

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  35. Geoff :
    CLaude,
    Yes, you are the captain of your life. No, there is only ONE God, and ONE Spirit, and ONE Son. That’s it. Anything else is a lie

    In the Bible they say nothing of God The Supreme too.

  36. Geoff :
    Jess,
    a. The purpose of those passages is not to tell you that God is going to somehow implant knowledge in your head.
    b. Andre (not andrea) can not read this. He is blind and the computer he uses can not render any more than simple text in an email. He prefers it that way.
    Your point [1]: Irrelevant. There are sects within UB as well.
    There are not “350 competing sects” – there are groups of people doing their best to understand a document formed over 6000 years by cultures and so forth that no longer exist. Of COURSE there will be differing understandings of various things.
    The most important bits are generally agreed upon, and are agreed upon within orthodoxy. The “little bits” are really non-essential.
    [2] Again, irrelevant. This just shows complete misunderstanding about what it means to be born again.
    In order to be born again, one needs to have ones nature changed. This is something that can only be performed by the Spirit. All this “taking hold of your soul” is just codswallop and the bible certainly does not teach it.
    These objections are what we call “straw men”. The UB is a book created by a clever man, to deceive people, and I am sorry to say, unlike Andre, you are still deceived.

    Geoff i think that you are in contact with Andre.
    Could you comunicate this to him please.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcal5BjK7x8&feature=player_embedded
    It’s important.

  37. Claude,
    Even if I did, he wouldnt be able to see it, He is blind.

    Dennis,

    No, I affirmed that Jesus is both God and Man, which is what the Bible teaches. I am not “limiting” God, I am just telling you what the Bible says.

  38. Aloha Geoff

    “I affirmed that Jesus is both God and Man, which is what the Bible teaches. I am not “limiting” God, I am just telling you what the Bible says.”

    Are you not just interpreting scripture??

    where is such a biblical statement limiting God that specifically states Jesus is not omniscient, omnipresent and all powerful??

    other wise He, according to such an interpretation, is less than God

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  39. Firstly, there is no “one” statement particularly. Your request to have one is either deliberately misleading or you just dont know really what the bible says.

    Secondly, you could start with Hebrews 1-3, Phil 2:6-8 and many other passages.

    Your statement about God shows that you dont really understand God at all. God is the Father, the Son, and The Spirit. I dont really have time to give you a lesson in basic theology, lesson one, “The nature of God” – I recommend you go and read a introduction to systematic theology, Millard Erickson’s one is a great place to start.

  40. Aloha Geoff

    “Firstly, there is no “one” statement particularly.”

    exactly just as I thought your statement is not from Scripture rather an interpretation of Scripture

    “Your statement about God shows that you dont really understand God at all.”

    or that your/this interpretation misunderstands the total power of God

    “God is the Father, the Son, and The Spirit.”

    agreed all of whom, all three persons of the Trinity, are omniscient, omnipresent and all powerful

    the possible functional personal associations of the Trinity [ 3 functioning as single Deities 3 in pairs and 1 as all three] are reflected in the 7 colors of the rainbow, the 7 chemically active electron orbitals of the periodic table even the seven tones in the major scale of music [the octave is a misnomer as the 8th note is only a repetition of the first tone at a higher frequency]

    “The nature of God”

    “”God is love”; therefore his only personal attitude towards the affairs of the universe is always a reaction of divine affection. The Father loves us sufficiently to bestow his life upon us. “He makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.”

    It is wrong to think of God as being coaxed into loving his children because of the sacrifices of his Sons or the intercession of his subordinate creatures, “for the Father himself loves you.” It is in response to this paternal affection that God sends the marvelous Spirit of God to indwell the minds of men. God’s love is universal; “whosoever will may come.” He would “have all men be saved by coming into the knowledge of the truth.” He is “not willing that any should perish.”

    The Creators are the very first to attempt to save man from the disastrous results of his foolish transgression of the divine laws. God’s love is by nature a fatherly affection; therefore does he sometimes “chasten us for our own profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness.” Even during your fiery trials remember that “in all our afflictions he is afflicted with us.”

    God is divinely kind to sinners. When rebels return to righteousness, they are mercifully received, “for our God will abundantly pardon.” “I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.” “Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God.”

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  41. An other Bible belief:

    8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

  42. Hi Brother Geoff

    You need to re read the Holy Bible
    For Scriptures DOES Say that Jesus Christs
    IS ” IN ” US !

    14:16-18 (Amplified Bible)
    16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever–

    17The Spirit of Truth, Whom the world cannot receive (welcome, take to its heart), because it does not see Him or know and recognize Him. But you know and recognize Him, for He lives with you [constantly] {and will be in you.}

    18I will not leave you as orphans [comfortless, desolate, bereaved, forlorn, helpless]; I will come [back] to you.

    JOHN 15
    4
    {Dwell in Me, and I will dwell in you.} [Live in Me, and I will live in you.] Just as no branch can bear fruit of itself without abiding in (being vitally united to) the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you abide in Me.

    5I am the Vine; you are the branches. {Whoever lives in Me and I in him} bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.

    6If a person does not dwell in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken-off] branch, and withers; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.

    7If you live in Me [abide vitally united to Me] and My words remain in you and continue to live in your hearts, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.

  43. Scriptures DOES Say that Jesus Christs SPIRIT
    IS ” IN ” US !

    A Sad story about the past and present very confused Andre , the Blind guy ,
    Who started the Cosmic Citizen blog radio of Truthbook , Paulas Friend .
    Who Now Did a 190% turn around about the UB .
    Sez it from satan etc …
    His Story Clearly shows his complete lack of understanding of the UPapers
    and his ignorance and lack of comprehension of
    Adam an Eve …
    GODs Wrath …
    HELL
    Evolution
    And the Atonement Doctrine … etc …

    There are many errors in andres Post
    about the Urantia Book .

    Geoff ~ Have you read the Urantia Book ?

    I Suspect that you have NOT , And are only
    Judgeing it by what others Say and not really
    giveing it a personal an honest examination yourself.

  44. Coop,

    I have read quite a bit of it.. it is 2000 odd pages and I dont have time to waste on badly written fantasy stories.

    The verses in John just prove what I said, the SPIRIT is that which dwells in us, not Jesus. Jesus is not omnipresent. God is through the Spirit.

  45. An imortant message from the Holy Spirit. This is not a joke.

    Nebadonia – The Coming Cataclysm – Mar 23, 2011 – Monjoronson.com Paul Conklin
    [Preface from the Transmitter: Dear Friends, I received this message last night. At first I was receiving a message from my personal Destiny Guardian. After she finished her message she told me that she was stepping aside for Mother Spirit to come through. Nebadonia brought this message to me. After her message she told me that she was stepping aside for yet another. It was Monjoronson. It was a coordinated effort. They have some pertinent things to say to all of us. They want us to be prepared when the cataclysms start to occur in a large way. They do not want us to be caught off guard. They want us to be ready and to help our brethren when that time comes.]

    Nebadonia

    The Coming Cataclysm

    My dear child, this is your mother Nebadonia. My children are awakening. My children are experiencing a growing awareness of me. As I have expressed to you many times you are in me and I am in you. There is an intimate sharing that takes place. You are borrowing my mind for a certain period until I pass you off when you leave the confines of the local universe. For now be in my peace and in my love.

    My dear child I need to speak with you about the coming cataclysm. There will be an earth-wide shaking. When this occurs there will be no doubt that something extraordinary is occurring. When this occurs so many of your brethren will be panicked. So many of your brethren will feel hopeless. Remember too that there will be a great loss of life. Those left behind will suffer extraordinary losses. They will have to cope with the deaths of their loved ones. They will have to cope with the loss of their jobs. They will have to cope with the loss of their homes. There will be food shortages and famines as a result. Do not think that these things are coming from our Paradise Father. These things are natural occurrences. But even though these things are natural occurrences the celestial team in place is speeding these things up so as to minimize their effects.

    Prepare yourselves now my children. These words are urgent. Please do not misunderstand the tenor of these words. I do not want you to crumble in fear. I do not want you to panic. I am telling you these things so that you will be prepared. What parent would not warn its children of coming dangers? Such a lack of warning would betray a lack of love. I love you all deeply my children and I want you to be ready. If you prepare now you will indeed be ready. When these cataclysms take place you will be ready.

    So many of your brethren are unaware of these coming cataclysms. It is not as if they have not experienced cataclysms before. All mankind has experienced these things frequently throughout their almost one million year history. But this time is different. This time will result in a massive loss of life. Some will claim that God has visited calamity on mankind because of their sin. My awakened children, let your brethren know that these things are not so. Our Paradise Father would never visit calamity upon His beloved children because of some perceived sin. You will be at the forefront of informing your brethren. For this you have been prepared my children. There are so many heroics yet to play out on this world. Some of you will go down as a permanent etching in the history of your world. What you are about to do will never be forgotten. What you are about to do will forever be sung about by my beloved and holy angels. All of your feats will be sung by them on high.

    This is the time when it is imperative that unconditional love holds sway. There is no use in hanging onto old grievances. You will all do better if you learn to practice forgiveness and unconditional love. This is what is needed my children. This is what is always needed. But imagine at such a catastrophic time what will be needed. You will be called upon to do things that you thought not possible. You will step up to the plate and you will deliver. You will help to deliver this world back in the hands of the Eternal One. These cataclysms will be massive and unrelenting for a time, but such cataclysms will actually speed up the process of spiritual growth. This will speed up the process of spiritual growth because mankind will be forced to come out of their comfort zones. They will be forced to look at things in a completely different way. What I mean to say my children is that your circumstances will dictate that you look at things in a completely different way. Gone will be the old paradigm. The new paradigm arrives.

    Can you imagine it my children? Can you imagine a world that is truly dedicated to the Father? A world where every word thought and deed reflects the will of the Father? For this you have been longing for. For this you have been prepared for? For it is you my children, you will bring this about. I will help for sure. Your celestial family will help for sure. But you will all do the leg work. It is because of your work and your dedication that this will come about. It is because of your undying love that this will come about. I am so proud of you my children. My heart is bursting with pride and with my love. I see what you will do. I see it before me. I am truly and deeply touched for I know what you are capable of and what you will do.

    When mountains themselves crumble into the sea you will be there. You will be there to pick up the pieces of broken mankind. You will be the glue that will mend the broken hearts of so many. Your love will be contagious, your heroics admirable. For this day you have been prepared. Go forth and make it so my children. Weld back the broken pieces of mankind’s heart. I shall raise you on high. Even though you are living on the earth I shall watch as you soar with the angels. One day, one day in the not too distant future, this world will reach the opening stages of light and life. And you my children shall have been instrumental in such an eventuality. When this world shakes know that you shall not be left alone. Call upon me at that time and I shall strengthen you. You shall be a healing balm for all of your brethren. Forever and always, be in my love.

    END

  46. Joel :
    What in the world is this garbage?

    . …As God led me in my study of the gift of prophecy, I was convicted by the Apostle’s command: “Earnestly desire to prophesy” (1 Corinthians 14:39; see also 12:31; 14:1). My zeal (Greek zeloo) to prophesy or encourage prophecy in the church certainly was not conformed to the Word. But as I discovered what God intends prophecy to do for His church, my desire and faith for the gift increased. Why is prophecy so important? Just what is its purpose?

    Its several functions may all be subsumed under the purpose of building up the Church. Since love for the brethren is to be the motive for desiring the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 13), the purpose is to build up the brethren. The Greek word oikodome was first used of building houses, temples, and pyramids, but quickly moved to a figurative sense in secular Greek.[4] In the context of spiritual gifts it means “building” as a process, “construction” and is “figurative of spiritual strengthening, edifying, edification, building up.”[5] The Spirit of Christ is fulfilling Jesus’ promise, “I will build (oikodomeo) my church …” (Mt 16:18). The Spirit is in the business of constructing people and the community. The ways in which prophecy builds up the body are spelled out in detail in 1 Corinthians 14.

    http://www.joyfulheart.com/scholar/purp-pro.htm

  47. Joel

    Its tripe.

    Claude,

    Why would you quote the bible as an authority of prophecy then reject the bible and start repeating some rubbish that has nothing to do with the Bible or God?
    Its just illogical, as is most everything UB related.

  48. It was paul’s technic…and

    Nathaniel was much bothered by some of Jesus’ pronouncements which seemed to detract from the authority of the recognized Hebrew scriptures. Accordingly, on this night, after the usual period of questions and answers, Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: “Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings — the best as I view it — and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?” When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:

    (1767.4) 159:4.2 “Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham. Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them. While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.

    http://www.urantia.org/en/urantia-book-standardized/paper-159-decapolis-tour

  49. yes, none of this is in the bible, so it is just fantasy. The ONLY record of what happened or was said that is authoritative is the Bible. This is just Sadler and Co’s fictional account of what happened.

    It is rejected out of hand as complete and utter rubbish. It’s like me writing a sequel to Lord of the Rings and trying to convince everyone I am the reincarnation of, and better than J R R Tolkien.

    Its just a steaming pile of wombat doo.

  50. Aloha Geoff

    you seem to be avoiding the fact that according to coops quote of John 15:4 “Remain in me, as I also remain in you.”

    that Jesus can, and does indeed indwell us

    are you avoiding this because this verse shows that your questioning of my original Statement that “Jesus in me loves Jesus in you” is both accurate and true and is not imposable because Jesus is Man as well as God??

    your statement in the form of a question “You do know that Jesus isn’t actually _in_ you, right?” seems to demonstrate that it is you who “just dont know really what the bible says.”

    care to comment or do you really want to stand by your statement that “Jesus is not _in_ me, ”

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  51. Dennis,

    No, I have explained it already. Jesus can not do the illogical. It is not logical for another human being to live inside another human being. It _IS_ logical for God (and Jesus) to be present through the Spirit – which is of course, what the Bible says.

    How can you be in Jesus? Because the verse you quoted says that too.. If you are not physically in Jesus, inside him.. then Jesus is not inside you physically either.

    It is complete insanity to think otherwise.

  52. Aloha Geoff

    you say “It is not logical for another human being to live inside another human being. ”

    nor is it logical for a Man to rise from the dead, or raise another from the dead, or turn water into wine, yet all this and more is attributed to Jesus who is ALSO GOD [which does after all explain the so called illogical]

    it is not a matter of logic but of faith

    are you of so little faith that you can only believe the logical??

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  53. No, there is a difference. God can do miracles, but he can not do illogical things.

    He can not make a 4 sided triangle, he can not do illogical things. It is illogical, and completely insane to think one human being to be living inside another, and even more illogical for that person to be living inside the person inside. Do you not comprehend how insane this sounds?

    Person A lives inside person B while person B lives inside person A. Literally and physically. This is what you are telling me JOhn 15:4 says.

    Its no wonder you are quite ready to believe in the UB.. you’ll believe anything.

  54. Aloha Geoff

    “He can not make a 4 sided triangle, he can not do illogical things”

    even God can not do the undo able and Jesus as ONLY a human could not dwell inside anyone but Himself

    however when speaking of Him indwelling us and us residing in Him as Jesus spoke in John 15:4 we are not discussing Jesus as ONLY a man but Jesus as God

    it is dishonest to parse the words so strictly that one even denies Jesus’ truth in order to try to mask oneself behind ecclesiastic authority to avoid a sharing of brotherhood through such Sanhedrin like snobbery

    but rejoice Geoff like you have in this blog Peter denied Jesus 3 times and was readily forgiven

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  55. Geoff :
    yes, none of this is in the bible, so it is just fantasy. The ONLY record of what happened or was said that is authoritative is the Bible. This is just Sadler and Co’s fictional account of what happened.
    It is rejected out of hand as complete and utter rubbish. It’s like me writing a sequel to Lord of the Rings and trying to convince everyone I am the reincarnation of, and better than J R R Tolkien.
    Its just a steaming pile of wombat doo.

    The Christian Bible (sometimes known as the Holy Bible) is divided into two parts. The first is called the Old Testament, containing the (minimum) 39 books of Hebrew Scripture, and the second portion is called the New Testament, containing a set of 27 books. The first four books of the New Testament form the Canonical gospels which recount the life of Christ and are central to the Christian faith.

    Christian Bibles include the books of the Hebrew Bible, but arranged in a different order: Jewish Scripture ends with the people of Israel restored to Jerusalem and the temple and the Christian arrangement ends with the book of the prophet Malachi.

    The oldest surviving Christian Bibles are Greek manuscripts from the 4th century; the oldest complete Jewish Bible is a Greek translation, also dating to the 4th century. The oldest complete manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible (the Masoretic text) date from the Middle Ages.[4]

    During the three centuries following the establishment of Christianity in the 1st century, Church Fathers compiled Gospel accounts and letters of apostles into a Christian Bible which became known as the New Testament. The Old and New Testaments together are commonly referred to as “The Holy Bible” (τὰ βιβλία τὰ ἅγια). The canonical composition of the Old Testament is under dispute between Christian groups: Protestants hold only the books of the Hebrew Bible to be canonical; Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox additionally consider the deuterocanonical books, a group of Jewish books, to be canonical. The New Testament is composed of the Gospels (“good news”), the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles (letters), and the Book of Revelation….wiki.

  56. Dennis,

    The Bible says Jesus is a Man AND God. IT says his HUMAN BODY WAS RESURRECTED.

    So, tell me, how are you inhabiting his human body and how is his human body inhabiting yours?

  57. Aloha Geoff

    you ask ‘So, tell me, how are you inhabiting his human body and how is his human body inhabiting yours?”

    you should ask yourself that question as it is you who are limiting God by stating that Jesus’ humanity is superior and primal over His Divinity

    in other words God in the image of man rather than Man in the image of God, the dreaded anthropomorphism

    if you are so deliberately obtuse you can not understand the Truth of Jesus written in the Scriptures “Remain in me, as I also remain in you.” or that the first two words of the Lord’s Prayer “Our Father” show that we are all brothers and sisters members of the Fathers divine family then you are cutting yourself off from Jesus’ great gift to all mankind, the gift of Him dwelling in us, and with us, and Him sharing our lives

    over what some smarmy unfounded attempt to quibble over truth freely given by Jesus himself??

    what does it profit your soul to win the debate, in only your own eyes, and loose the heritage of your soul and a life with Jesus within??

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  58. So, what you’re saying is, I am not as spiritual or as wise as you, because you believe the UB, so basically, I can not be right.

    That pretty much confirms that you are insane. You believe that you inhabit Jesus human body as well as yours, at the same time that he inhabits his and yours. And this is ok, because I am limiting God.

    EVEN THOUGH… in God’s handbook this is what he says, despite you pulling out one random verse and misapplying it (we call it proof texting). You sir, if you truly believe this, could be considered clinically insane.

  59. Aloha Geoff

    have you never heard this verse

    “dance dance where ever you may be

    for I am the Lord of the dance said He

    I’ll live in you if you live in me

    for I am the lord of the dance says He”

    or is it that you just don’t understand it??

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  60. Aloha Geoff

    you say “So, what you’re saying is, I am not as spiritual or as wise as you, because you believe the UB, so basically, I can not be right.”

    those are YOUR words friend not mine

    so you resort to fighting the strawman when you can not admit to Jesus’ truth [not mine]

    poor form

    you can do better

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  61. I do understand it, but it appears you do not.

    I have the Spirit of God in me, who reveals to me the truth about Christ, this is how I “have Christ in me” – this is what the Bible teaches. It is physically impossible and ludicrous for the actual Jesus (who has a physical body still, today) to be living inside you. This is NOT what is taught.

  62. No, those words are implicit in what you have said.

    “it is you who are limiting God..”
    “.. smarmy unfounded attempt to quibble ..”
    “but rejoice Geoff like you have in this blog Peter denied Jesus 3 times and was readily forgiven” (implying that I am denying the “truth” therefore less spiritual).
    “are you of so little faith that you can only believe the logical??”
    (God is a God of logic, or all the universe would implode.. doh!)
    “care to comment or do you really want to stand by your statement that “Jesus is not _in_ me, ”” – again, implying that I am less spiritual.
    “.. denial of the presence of Christ just for the sake of appearing to want to win the point such is not good for either your soul nor the Truth” – kinda speaks for itself..

    Need I go on?
    You are under the misapprehension that to be saved (in the biblical sense) means you some how have Jesus living in you. Well, you are right and wrong, right in the sense of “somehow”, wrong by thinking that you can have another human being living inside you (unless you’re pregnant of course).
    To be saved is to have the Spirit inside you, and through the Spirit, Christ and the Father are mediated to you. This is what the Bible teaches…
    You can say “I have Christ in me THROUGH THE SPIRIT” – but the actual, physical Christ.. no. He is a divine and yet HUMAN – he has a fleshly body that was able to be touched, eat food, etc etc..

    I think that pretty much ends this discussion, you are clearly not rational.

  63. Aloha Geoff

    let me give you some more background about me

    My grandfather was a traveling minister in and around Kansas at the start of the 20th century and then moved to Southern California and was a minister of the “First Christian Church” in which I grew up

    my mother was the staff pianist for the church choir for 25 years and my Dad was a Deacon for a similar time gathering the collection plates and distributing communion

    I attended Sunday school from ‘small kid times’ I was in the kids choir and baptized in this church when I was twelve

    My aunt was often part of Billy Grahams Crusades when they came to town

    my insistence on Jesus’ Truth that He indwells us comes from my CHRISTIAN heritage having heard and believed it ALL MY LIFE long before I came across the Urantia Papers

    I do not believe that you are “not as spiritual or as wise as [me], because [I]believe the UB, ”

    rather I believe that you and I are brothers because according to Jesus [shown by “Our Father”] we have a parent, a Heavenly Parent, in common

    just to warn you about that which you are seemingly unaware:

    ‘all appears yellow to a jaundiced eye’

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  64. Aloha Geoff

    again you resort to putting your words in my mouth thus creating a strawman argument:

    “wrong by thinking that you can have another human being living inside you ”

    thus demonstrating the jaundice of your vision

    it is you who are claiming I think I have another human living in me not I

    such tactics ARE smarmy unfair and untrue

    please stop lying about that which I am saying

    it does not become you

    Aloha Rev. Dennis Shields

  65. Aloha Geoff

    “I think that pretty much ends this discussion, you are clearly not rational.”

    chuckle my points won

    if you take your football and go home tail between legs that is hardly heroic

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  66. Aloha Joel

    can’t you folks respond or debate with out putting words or beliefs in someone elses mouth thus creating and supposedly defeating a strawman argument in order for petty chest thumping

    sez Joel, “No, pretty sure the fact that you think alien beings live inside of you is beyond the point of rationality.”

    that would be true if that were FACTUALLY what I believe

    in consort and harmony with Jesus’ statement at John 15:4, Jesus in me loves Jesus in you [I first heard this as a Christian statement from Christians which I am repeating and not to be found in the Papers, if implied]

    that does not mean I believe another human is in me nor aliens nor that I am Jesus nor that I am somehow superior to anybody

    as to being irrational are you a Dr. qualified to pronounce such or are you just attempting to insult

    how Christian of you

    of course what should I have expected

    I attempt to follow Jesus and He was accused of being irrational must be par for the course

    Jesus freely gives His presence and any can freely receive

    I have made statements indicating brotherly inclusion which have been meet by mundane, unloving and unfriendly quibbles and ecclesiastic elitism and pronouncements of CHRISTIAN tenets as irrational by professed Christians

    will wonders never cease??

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

    1. First, Denny, I have no need to give you any sort of respect for your silliness. You use the bible, but as what? You use it for your own filth.

      Am I qualified to make judgments on you? Let’s see… I am sane… So, well, yeah.

  67. There seems to be some Misunderstandings
    of what Has an IS Being Said in this Discussion .
    Albeit on purpose or not im not sure of .

    Geoff said ;
    ”You can say “I have Christ in me THROUGH THE SPIRIT” – but the actual, physical Christ.. no”

    OK I Agree ,

    Yet , earlier You Denied Christs SPIRIT
    IS WITHIN AND IN US !

    YES GOD IS The Giver And Creator OF ALL
    By And Thru Him .

    Christs Spirit IS IN AND WITHIN US .

    To Deny THIS IS Blasphamey !

    These Quotes and links are from This Website BTW .

    ““““““““
    GAL ; 2 ; 20
    Galatians 2:20 (New International Version, ©2011)
    20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    THE VINE AND THE BRANCHS

    ” III. “I IN YOU”

    “I am the vine, ye are the branches: he that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit.” “Abide in Me, and I in you.”

    We have thought of the tragedy of the fruitless branch, and seen how impossible it is for a branch to produce fruit by any effort of its own. Now the vine and the branches have another lesson to teach us a lesson which only those are prepared to learn who have in some degree mastered the former lessons.

    If God expects me to bear fruit in my Christian life, and if I cannot produce that fruit by any effort of my own, how then does He intend that fruit to be produced? We have the answer in this parable. The fruit is produced by the life of the vine in the branch. God intends that the fruit in my life should be produced by the Life of the Lord Jesus living in me. “I live,” said the Apostle Paul, “yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Gal. 2. 20). “Not I,” not by any strength or goodness of my own, no more than there is any life in the branch because of anything the branch has done,-“but Christ liveth in me,”-His life is working in me the things which are pleasing to God, just as the life of the vine works in the branch to bring forth fruit.”

    http://www.christinyou.net/pages/vinebranch.html

    “““““““““
    UNION WITH CHRIST

    http://www.christinyou.net/pages/unionbarth.html

    in them” (Jn. 17:23,26). “I in him” (Jn. 6:56; 15:5). According to Jn. 15:1f. He is the vine which produces, bears and nourishes the branches, or according to the even stronger expression in Jn. 6:33 He is the “bread of God which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” He gives them His flesh and blood, imparting and communicating Himself to them, giving Himself to nourish them, in order that as He lives they also may and will live to all eternity (Jn. 6:53). The same teaching is found in Paul. “Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you? ” (2 Cor. 13:5; cf. Rom. 8:10; Col. 1:27). He is the One who has apprehended the apostle (Phil. 3:12), putting His power in him (2 Cor.12:9), setting His truth in him (2 Cor. 11:10), speaking in him (2 Cor. 13:3), and always magnifying and glorifying Himself in his person (Phil. 1:20). And in relation to other Christians He is the One who dwells “in your hearts by faith” (Eph. 3:17), or who seeks to be formed in them (Gal. 4:19). Whether they are Greeks, Jews, Barbarians, Scythians, slaves or freemen, Christ is in them all (Col. 3:11). “Christ in you” is the great mystery of God among the nations (Col. 1:27). In the strongest possible expression (Gal. 2:20), Christ lives in the apostle in such a way that he has to say of himself that he no longer lives, i.e., in himself and apart from the fact that Christ lives in him, but that he now lives in faith in Him who gave Himself for him, this being his own most proper life to which, as one who still lives in the flesh, he can do justice only as he believes in Him. In Col. 3:4, however, “Christ our life” is also said in relation to Christians generally, and again in relation to all those who by the Spirit have been given to know what is given them by God there is made the immeasurable claim: “We have the mind of Christ ” (I Cor. 2:12,16), i.e., in virtue of His life in us we have His reason.”

  68. Aloha Joel

    sez Joel “First, Denny, I have no need to give you any sort of respect for your silliness.”

    and which of the the fruits of the spirit are you giving example in such an unloving and arrogant way

    is it joy?? does not seem so

    is it long-suffering?? that is the tolerance of another obviously not

    is it peace?? does not feel like it

    is it goodness?? one wonders how good is the response to an inclusive statement of LOVE, that Jesus in me LOVES Jesus in you, is meet with cold harsh rejection

    is it love?? Jesus said to love one another

    is this your shot at loving Joel??

    Joel sez “You use the bible, but as what? You use it for your own filth.”

    how loving and Jesus like Joel what an example you set [snicker]

    God is Love, Joel, and if you persist in being so unloving you will drift farther and farther from the path to glory

    You have my prayers for your cup of love to overflow rather than needing filling for being too dry

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

    1. The same fruits (speak of…) which Christ displayed when he ran the moneychangers from the Temple and Paul used in Galatians 1.

      Love is not allowing you to remain in your insanity.

      Your path leads to one place, Denny, and it ain’t glorious.

  69. Aloha Joel

    Joel sex “Love is not allowing you to remain in your insanity.”

    and that is exactly why I will continue to pray that you leave your insane lack of love and come into Jesus’ light of love and life that He shares by indwelling us

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  70. Aloha Joel

    Joel sez”Your path leads to one place,..”

    agreed

    “Denny” sez [thanks for the term of endearment maybe there’s hope for love from you yet-wink-]:

    There are as many paths to God as there are souls to walk them

    [eventually, that is sooner or later, they all lead to and through Jesus]

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  71. Aloha Joel

    Joel sez [failing at a poorly conceived attempt at humor via ridicule] “you think yours includes a transporter beam.”

    if all you can do is insult you have lost the decorum to engage in discussion and demonstrate such a paucity of reason and knowledge

    poor form

    better luck next post

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  72. Aloha Joel

    Joel sez “The same fruits (speak of…) which Christ displayed when he ran the moneychangers from the Temple …”

    so you believe that a brother, related by “Our Father”, who declares the love Jesus shares with us all to you, and offers peace, is equivalent to the money changers ??

    and thus somehow excuses you from obeying Jesus direction to love one another and insult instead??

    both irrational and illogical, Joel; kinda makes one wonder if ya got any aliens livin in ya [wink]

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  73. Pause:

    (36.6) 2:3.1 God is righteous; therefore is he just. “The Lord is righteous in all his ways.” “‘I have not done without cause all that I have done,’ says the Lord.” “The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.” The justice of the Universal Father cannot be influenced by the acts and performances of his creatures, “for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no respect of persons, no taking of gifts.”

    (36.7) 2:3.2 How futile to make puerile appeals to such a God to modify his changeless decrees so that we can avoid the just consequences of the operation of his wise natural laws and righteous spiritual mandates! “Be not deceived; God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.” True, even in the justice of reaping the harvest of wrongdoing, this divine justice is always tempered with mercy. Infinite wisdom is the eternal arbiter which determines the proportions of justice and mercy which shall be meted out in any given circumstance. The greatest punishment (in reality an inevitable consequence) for wrongdoing and deliberate rebellion against the government of God is loss of existence as an individual subject of that government. The final result of wholehearted sin is annihilation. In the last analysis, such sin-identified individuals have destroyed themselves by becoming wholly unreal through their embrace of iniquity. The factual disappearance of such a creature is, however, always delayed until the ordained order of justice current in that universe has been fully complied with.

    (37.1) 2:3.3 Cessation of existence is usually decreed at the dispensational or epochal adjudication of the realm or realms. On a world such as Urantia it comes at the end of a planetary dispensation. Cessation of existence can be decreed at such times by co-ordinate action of all tribunals of jurisdiction, extending from the planetary council up through the courts of the Creator Son to the judgment tribunals of the Ancients of Days. The mandate of dissolution originates in the higher courts of the superuniverse following an unbroken confirmation of the indictment originating on the sphere of the wrongdoer’s residence; and then, when sentence of extinction has been confirmed on high, the execution is by the direct act of those judges residential on, and operating from, the headquarters of the superuniverse.

    (37.2) 2:3.4 When this sentence is finally confirmed, the sin-identified being instantly becomes as though he had not been. There is no resurrection from such a fate; it is everlasting and eternal. The living energy factors of identity are resolved by the transformations of time and the metamorphoses of space into the cosmic potentials whence they once emerged. As for the personality of the iniquitous one, it is deprived of a continuing life vehicle by the creature’s failure to make those choices and final decisions which would have assured eternal life. When the continued embrace of sin by the associated mind culminates in complete self-identification with iniquity, then upon the cessation of life, upon cosmic dissolution, such an isolated personality is absorbed into the oversoul of creation, becoming a part of the evolving experience of the Supreme Being. Never again does it appear as a personality; its identity becomes as though it had never been. In the case of an Adjuster-indwelt personality, the experiential spirit values survive in the reality of the continuing Adjuster.

    (37.3) 2:3.5 In any universe contest between actual levels of reality, the personality of the higher level will ultimately triumph over the personality of the lower level. This inevitable outcome of universe controversy is inherent in the fact that divinity of quality equals the degree of reality or actuality of any will creature. Undiluted evil, complete error, willful sin, and unmitigated iniquity are inherently and automatically suicidal. Such attitudes of cosmic unreality can survive in the universe only because of transient mercy-tolerance pending the action of the justice-determining and fairness-finding mechanisms of the universe tribunals of righteous adjudication.

    (37.4) 2:3.6 The rule of the Creator Sons in the local universes is one of creation and spiritualization. These Sons devote themselves to the effective execution of the Paradise plan of progressive mortal ascension, to the rehabilitation of rebels and wrong thinkers, but when all such loving efforts are finally and forever rejected, the final decree of dissolution is executed by forces acting under the jurisdiction of the Ancients of Days.

    1. This has been delivered to me from the Great Bird of the Galaxy, the Roddenberryodonia

      Space: The final frontier
      These are the voyages of the Starship, Enterprise
      Its 5 year mission
      To explore strange new worlds
      To seek out new life and new civilizations
      To boldly go where no man has gone before

  74. Aloha Joel

    Joel sez: “This has been delivered to me from the Great Bird of the Galaxy, the Roddenberryodonia”

    attn Joel

    Jesus is behind the wheel and so sorry but my Karma just ran over yer dogma

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  75. Aloha Joel

    “Oh look, and in 20 years, you’ll be considered as saying something noteworthy”

    seems like your late

    I’ve been quoted is a couple of books already

    one 15 years ago

    so sorry about yer dogma

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  76. I can do all things through Christ (Michael of Nebadon) which strengtheneth me.
    Philippians 4;13

    God’s blessings to all.

          1. Joel, don’t worry. Be happy.

            I’m sure that you love this song as i love it.

  77. “Though human beings differ in many ways, the one from another, before God and in the spiritual world all mortals stand on an equal footing. There are only two groups of mortals in the eyes of God: those who desire to do his will and those who do not. As the universe looks upon an inhabited world, it likewise discerns two great classes: those who know God and those who do not. Those who cannot know God are reckoned among the animals of any given realm. Mankind can appropriately be divided into many classes in accordance with differing qualifications, as they may be viewed physically, mentally, socially, vocationally, or morally, but as these different classes of mortals appear before the judgment bar of God, they stand on an equal footing; God is truly no respecter of persons. Although you cannot escape the recognition of differential human abilities and endowments in matters intellectual, social, and moral, you should make no such distinctions in the spiritual brotherhood of men when assembled for worship in the presence of God.”

      1. Joel i have a question for you and Geoff: Do you have the assurance that your soul will survive if you die now?

  78. I’ll answer because I am silly.

    Human beings are not divisible. If your soul was to live on without you, it wouldnt be you.

    I have assurance that _I_ will be resurrected, physically, from the dead, in the eschaton. That is, mind, body, soul, spirit, hands, feet, hair, that funny warty thing growing on my big toe, and every other little part of me will be resurrected, and live in the Kingdom of God on earth, eternally.

    Scotty.. BEAM ME UP!

    1. Geoff, your comment, ‘Scotty… Beam me up’ is actually more canonical. Only in the Apocrypha does Kirk ever say, ‘Beam me up, Scotty.’ This textual variant is annoying, although sounds really cool.

      1. i am known for my uncool textual variants..

        Also, my wife once, before we were married, accused me of having a sense of humour – I’m now trying to prove her wrong..

    2. To a certain extent, the appearance of the material body-form is responsive to the character of the personality identity; the physical body does, to a limited degree, reflect something of the inherent nature of the personality. Still more so does the morontia form. In the physical life, mortals may be outwardly beautiful though inwardly unlovely; in the morontia life, and increasingly on its higher levels, the personality form will vary directly in accordance with the nature of the inner person. On the spiritual level, outward form and inner nature begin to approximate complete identification, which grows more and more perfect on higher and higher spirit levels.

  79. Geoff :
    I’ll answer because I am silly.
    Human beings are not divisible. If your soul was to live on without you, it wouldnt be you.
    I have assurance that _I_ will be resurrected, physically, from the dead, in the eschaton. That is, mind, body, soul, spirit, hands, feet, hair, that funny warty thing growing on my big toe, and every other little part of me will be resurrected, and live in the Kingdom of God on earth, eternally.
    Scotty.. BEAM ME UP!

    …Is faith — the supreme assertion of human thought — desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

    God’s blessings to all.

    1. Then use it for this if you can:

      May I admonish you to heed the distant echo of the Adjuster’s faithful call to your soul? The indwelling Adjuster cannot stop or even materially alter your career struggle of time; the Adjuster cannot lessen the hardships of life as you journey on through this world of toil. The divine indweller can only patiently forbear while you fight the battle of life as it is lived on your planet; but you could, if you only would — as you work and worry, as you fight and toil — permit the valiant Adjuster to fight with you and for you. You could be so comforted and inspired, so enthralled and intrigued, if you would only allow the Adjuster constantly to bring forth the pictures of the real motive, the final aim, and the eternal purpose of all this difficult, uphill struggle with the commonplace problems of your present material world.

      (1223.5) 111:7.3 Why do you not aid the Adjuster in the task of showing you the spiritual counterpart of all these strenuous material efforts? Why do you not allow the Adjuster to strengthen you with the spiritual truths of cosmic power while you wrestle with the temporal difficulties of creature existence? Why do you not encourage the heavenly helper to cheer you with the clear vision of the eternal outlook of universal life as you gaze in perplexity at the problems of the passing hour? Why do you refuse to be enlightened and inspired by the universe viewpoint while you toil amidst the handicaps of time and flounder in the maze of uncertainties which beset your mortal life journey? Why not allow the Adjuster to spiritualize your thinking, even though your feet must tread the material paths of earthly endeavor?

      (1223.6) 111:7.4 The higher human races of Urantia are complexly admixed; they are a blend of many races and stocks of different origin. This composite nature renders it exceedingly difficult for the Monitors to work efficiently during life and adds definitely to the problems of both the Adjuster and the guardian seraphim after death.

      Presented by a Solitary Messenger of Orvonton.

      Question?

  80. About The Mark of the Beast and 666 in the Urantia book:

    (182.7) 15:14.8 The grand universe number of your world, Urantia, is 5,342,482,337,666. That is the registry number on Uversa and on Paradise, your number in the catalogue of the inhabited worlds. I know the physical-sphere registry number, but it is of such an extraordinary size that it is of little practical significance to the mortal mind.

    [link to http://www.urantia.org]

    9. The Seventh Mansion World

    (538.6) 47:9.1 The experience on this sphere is the crowning achievement of the immediate postmortal career. During your sojourn here you will receive the instruction of many teachers, all of whom will co-operate in the task of preparing you for residence on Jerusem. Any discernible differences between those mortals hailing from the isolated and retarded worlds and those survivors from the more advanced and enlightened spheres are virtually obliterated during the sojourn on the seventh mansion world. Here you will be purged of all the remnants of unfortunate heredity, unwholesome environment, and unspiritual planetary tendencies. The last remnants of the “mark of the beast” are here eradicated.

    [link to http://www.urantia.org]

    1. That was a lot nicer than what I was going to say, which was along the lines of I need that like I Need to know what Charles Manson writes on his cell walls

    2. adjuster is only a name for the spirit of God the father or God’s fragment. It talk a lot about it in the UB. He is our best friend as we know. God is our best friend.

      To come back to the bible i think that we are living in this actualy:

      The Divine Kingdom
      44″In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a (BH)kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will (BI)crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. Daniel 2.

      I don’t want to disturb you but “The Time is short”..1 Cor..

  81. Joel, LoL.

    Claude,

    As I said, the adjuster does not exist. God is not your best friend, God is King, and God will punish all those traitors who give their allegience to “Adjusters” and other such pretenters to his throne.

  82. Aloha Claude

    Jesus warns us not to cast pearls before swine

    these folks have no desire to exhibit love only scorn ridicule and juvenile blather

    they sure know how to give Christianity a bad name

    they deny Jesus is in them therfore they are not either of Jesus or for the truth mercy and love which Jesus taught

    they have proven that one should not cast pearls before swine lest they turn to rend you

    they have met offers of love with hate

    such a pity

    Aloha

    Rev. Dennis Shields

  83. Dennis,

    It appears you know very little about Christianity, especially since so you so quickly reject it and take up a gospel which is foreign to it. You also have taken a Christian term of repect, “reverend” and apply it to yourself, while quite clearly not being either Christian nor a person commissioned by the Church. This might be considered the highest form of disrespect to all that Joel and I believe in, and as far as I am personally concerned, deserving of far more than a little mockery.

    Everything you believe in is a perversion of what we hold dear, and here you are talking down to us as though you have the spiritual high ground, when in fact you dont have the Spirit at all.

    The mere fact we’re still responding shows just how loving we are.

  84. “Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn’t learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn’t learn a little, at least we didn’t get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn’t die; so, let us all be thankful.”
    — Buddha

  85. Joel :
    I am the way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me. – Jesus Christ,
    Buddha? And?

    And you, Geoff and Billy Graham etc.

  86. And,

    * George W. Truett, 1867 -1944

    Billy Graham
    Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    * Roger Williams, (1603–1684)
    * John Bunyan, (1628–1688)
    * W.A. Criswell (1909–2002)
    * James T. Draper, Jr. (born 1935)
    * Benjamin Keach (1640–1704)
    * William Garrett Lewis (c. 1834 – 1885)
    * C. H. Spurgeon, (1834–1892), the “Prince of Preachers”
    * John Alexis Edgren (1839–1908) Minister who founded Bethel University[4]
    * J. Frank Norris (1877–1952), who found the Bible Baptist Seminary, which became Arlington Baptist College in Arlington, TX
    * Mordecai Ham (1877–1961)
    * Duke Kimbrough McCall (born 1914)
    * Billy Graham, (born 1918)
    * Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929–1968)
    * Moishe Rosen (born 1932), founder of Jews for Jesus
    * Jerry Falwell, (1933–2007)
    * John MacArthur (born 1939) [5]
    * Jesse Jackson, (born 1941)
    * Corey J. Hodges, (born 1971)
    * Lewis Brown, (born 1941)
    * John Piper, (1946-)

    [edit] Methodist
    John Wesley

    * John Wesley, (1703–1791)
    * Daniel Rowland, (1713–1790)
    * George Whitefield, (1714–1770)
    * Francis Asbury, (1747–1816)
    * Peter Cartwright, (1785–1873)
    * William Booth, (1829–1912) – founder of the Salvation Army
    * Bob Jones, Sr., (1883–1968)
    * Carl Stuart Hamblen, (1908–1989)
    * William Willimon, (born 1946)

    [edit] Church of Christ

    * Batsell Baxter, (1886–1956)
    * Batsell Barrett Baxter, (1916–1982)
    * B. C. Goodpasture, (1895–1977)
    * Marshall Keeble, (1878–1968)
    * Max Lucado, (born 1955)
    * Cline Paden (1919–2007)
    * Walter Scott, (1796–1861)
    * Kenneth W. Wright, (born 1945)

    [edit] Members Church of God International

    * Eliseo Soriano, (born 1947)
    * Daniel Razon, (born 1967)

    [edit] Charismatic

    * David Du Plessis, (1905–1987)
    * Kathryn Kuhlman, (1907–1976)
    * John Wimber, (1934–1997)
    * Reinhard Bonnke, (born 1940)
    * Joyce Meyer, (born 1943)
    * Derek Prince, (1915–2003)

    [edit] Pentecostal

    * Alexander Boddy, (1854–1930)
    * Smith Wigglesworth (1859–1947)
    * William J. Seymour, (1870–1922)
    * Lewi Pethrus, (1884–1974)
    * William Marrion Branham (1909 ~ 1965)
    * David Wilkerson, (born 1931)
    * Bernie L. Wade, (born 1963)
    * Oral Roberts, (1918–2009)
    * Louie P. Rey, (1958– present day)
    * Mark J. Sheppeard, (1982-present day)
    etc.

  87. Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn’t learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn’t learn a little, at least we didn’t get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn’t die; so, let us all be thankful.”

    Where do you read that Jesus is not the Wat, The Truth and Life in Coop quote? Then why you reply like this?

  88. I am the way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me. – Jesus Christ,

    AMEN To that Brother

    ”Buddha? And?”

    The Buddha Quote was ment as Humor !

    But TRUTH IS TRUTH
    Regardless of its source or where it is found !

    Fear NOT For there will be NO End Times
    ONLY NEW Beginings !

    The TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE !

    1. Only Christ is Truth. Only Christ is the Way. You can find Truth in no other Source by Christ, and if you think you can, then all you have is lies.

  89. This one from Jesus two thousands years ago:

    2. The Epochal Sermon

    (1709.2) 153:2.1 Jesus introduced this sermon by reading from the law as found in Deuteronomy: “But it shall come to pass, if this people will not hearken to the voice of God, that the curses of transgression shall surely overtake them. The Lord shall cause you to be smitten by your enemies; you shall be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. And the Lord shall bring you and the king you have set up over you into the hands of a strange nation. You shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations. Your sons and your daughters shall go into captivity. The strangers among you shall rise high in authority while you are brought very low. And these things shall be upon you and your seed forever because you would not hearken to the word of the Lord. Therefore shall you serve your enemies who shall come against you. You shall endure hunger and thirst and wear this alien yoke of iron. The Lord shall bring against you a nation from afar, from the end of the earth, a nation whose tongue you shall not understand, a nation of fierce countenance, a nation which will have little regard for you. And they shall besiege you in all your towns until the high fortified walls wherein you have trusted come down; and all the land shall fall into their hands. And it shall come to pass that you will be driven to eat the fruit of your own bodies, the flesh of your sons and daughters, during this time of siege, because of the straitness wherewith your enemies shall press you.”

    (1709.3) 153:2.2 And when Jesus had finished this reading, he turned to the Prophets and read from Jeremiah: “‘If you will not hearken to the words of my servants the prophets whom I have sent you, then will I make this house like Shiloh, and I will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.’ And the priests and the teachers heard Jeremiah speak these words in the house of the Lord. And it came to pass that, when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking all that the Lord had commanded him to speak to all the people, the priests and teachers laid hold of him, saying, ‘You shall surely die.’ And all the people crowded around Jeremiah in the house of the Lord. And when the princes of Judah heard these things, they sat in judgment on Jeremiah. Then spoke the priests and the teachers to the princes and to all the people, saying: ‘This man is worthy to die, for he has prophesied against our city, and you have heard him with your own ears.’ Then spoke Jeremiah to all the princes and to all the people: ‘The Lord sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city all the words which you have heard. Now, therefore, amend your ways and reform your doings and obey the voice of the Lord your God that you may escape the evil which has been pronounced against you. As for me, behold I am in your hands. Do with me as seems good and right in your eyes. But know you for certain that, if you put me to death, you shall bring innocent blood upon yourselves and upon this people, for of a truth the Lord has sent me to speak all these words in your ears.’

    (1710.1) 153:2.3 “The priests and teachers of that day sought to kill Jeremiah, but the judges would not consent, albeit, for his words of warning, they did let him down by cords in a filthy dungeon until he sank in mire up to his armpits. That is what this people did to the Prophet Jeremiah when he obeyed the Lord’s command to warn his brethren of their impending political downfall. Today, I desire to ask you: What will the chief priests and religious leaders of this people do with the man who dares to warn them of the day of their spiritual doom? Will you also seek to put to death the teacher who dares to proclaim the word of the Lord, and who fears not to point out wherein you refuse to walk in the way of light which leads to the entrance to the kingdom of heaven?

    (1710.2) 153:2.4 “What is it you seek as evidence of my mission on earth? We have left you undisturbed in your positions of influence and power while we preached glad tidings to the poor and the outcast. We have made no hostile attack upon that which you hold in reverence but have rather proclaimed new liberty for man’s fear-ridden soul. I came into the world to reveal my Father and to establish on earth the spiritual brotherhood of the sons of God, the kingdom of heaven. And notwithstanding that I have so many times reminded you that my kingdom is not of this world, still has my Father granted you many manifestations of material wonders in addition to more evidential spiritual transformations and regenerations.

    (1710.3) 153:2.5 “What new sign is it that you seek at my hands? I declare that you already have sufficient evidence to enable you to make your decision. Verily, verily, I say to many who sit before me this day, you are confronted with the necessity of choosing which way you will go; and I say to you, as Joshua said to your forefathers, ‘choose you this day whom you will serve.’ Today, many of you stand at the parting of the ways.

  90. Truth (Anglo-Saxon tréow, tryw, truth, preservation of a compact, from a Teutonic base Trau, to believe) is a relation which holds (1) between the knower and the known — Logical Truth; (2) between the knower and the outward expression which he gives to his knowledge — Moral Truth; and (3) between the thing itself, as it exists, and the idea of it, as conceived by God — Ontological Truth. In each case this relation is, according to the Scholastic theory, one of correspondence, conformity, or agreement (adoequatio) (St. Thomas, Summa I:21:2).

    Ontological truth
    Every existing thing is true, in that it is the expression of an idea which exists in the mind of God, and is, as it were, the exemplar according to which the thing has been created or fashioned. Just as human creations — a cathedral, a painting, or an epic — conform to and embody the ideas of architect, artist, or poet, so, only in a more perfect way, God’s creatures conform to and embody the ideas of Him who gives them being. (Q. D., De verit., a. 4; Summa 1:16:1.) Things that exist, moreover, are active as well as passive. They tend not only to develop, and so to realize more and more perfectly the idea which they are created to express, but they tend also to reproduce themselves. Reproduction obtains wherever there is interaction between different things, for an effect, in so far as it proceeds from a given cause, must resemble that cause. Now the cause of knowledge in man is — ultimately, at any rate — the thing that is known. By its activities it causes in man an idea that is like to the idea embodied in the thing itself. Hence, things may also be said to be ontologically true in that they are at once the object and the cause of human knowledge. (Cf. IDEALISM; and Summa, I:16:7 and 1:16:8; m 1. periherm., 1. III; Q.D., I, De veritate, a. 4.)

    Logical truth
    The Scholastic theory
    To judge that things are what they are is to judge truly. Every judgment comprises certain ideas which are referred to, or denied of, reality. But it is not these ideas that are the objects of our judgment. They are merely the instruments by means of which we judge. The object about which we judge is reality itself — either concrete existing things, their attributes, and their relations, or else entities the existence of which is merely conceptual or imaginary, as in drama, poetry, or fiction, but in any case entities which are real in the sense that their being is other than our present thought about them. Reality, therefore, is one thing, and the ideas and judgments by means of which we think about reality, another; the one objective, and the other subjective. Yet, diverse as they are, reality is somehow present to, if not present in consciousness when we think, and somehow by means of thought the nature of reality is revealed. This being the case, the only term adequate to describe the relation that exists between thought and reality, when our judgments about the latter are true judgments, would seem to be conformity or correspondence. “Veritas logica est adaequatio intellectus et rei” (Summa, I:21:2). Whenever truth is predicable of a judgment, that judgment corresponds to, or resembles, the reality, the nature or attributes of which it reveals. Every judgment is, however, as we have said, made up of ideas, and may be logically analyzed into a subject and a predicate, which are either united by the copula is, or disjoined by the expression is not. If the judgment be true, therefore, these ideas must also be true, i.e. must correspond with the realities which they signify. As, however, this objective reference or significance of ideas is not recognized or asserted except in the judgment, ideas as such are said to be only “materially” true. It is the judgment alone that is formally true, since in the judgment alone is a reference to reality formally made, and truth as such recognized or claimed.

    The negative judgment seems at first sight to form an exception to the general law that truth is correspondence; but this is not really the case. In the affirmative judgment both subject and predicate and the union between them, of whatever kind it may be, are referred to reality; but in the negative judgment subject and predicate are disjoined, not conjoined. In other words, in the negative judgment we deny that the predicate has reality in the particular case to which the subject refers. On the other hand, all such predicates presumably have reality somewhere, otherwise we should not talk about them. Either they are real qualities or real things, or at any rate somebody has conceived them as real. Consequently the negative judgment, if true, may also be said to correspond with reality, since both subject and predicate will be real somewhere, either as existents or as conceptions. What we deny, in fact, in the negative judgment is not the reality of the predicate, but the reality of the conjunction by which subject and predicate are united in the assertion which we implicitly challenge and negate. Subject and predicate may both be real, but if our judgment be true, they will be disjoined, not united in reality.

    But what precisely is this reality with which true judgments and true ideas are said to correspond? It is easy enough to understand how ideas can correspond with realities that are themselves conceptual or ideal, but most of the realities that we know are not of this kind. How, then, can ideas and their conjunctions or disjunctions, which are psychical in character, correspond with realities which for the most part are not psychical but material? To solve this problem we must go back to ontological truth which, as we saw, implies the creation of the universe by One Who, in creating it, has expressed therein His own ideas very much as an architect or an author expresses his ideas in the things that he creates except that creation in the latter case supposes already existent material. Our theory of truth supposes that the universe is built according to definite and rational plan, and that everything within the universe expresses or embodies an essential and integral part of that plan. Whence it follows that just as in a building or in a piece of sculpture we see the plan or design that is realized therein, so, in our experience of concrete things, by means of the same intellectual power, we apprehend the ideas which they embody or express. The correspondence therefore, in which truth consists is not a correspondence between ideas and anything material as such, but between ideas as they exist in our mind and function in our acts of cognition, and the idea that reality expresses and embodies — ideas which have their origin and prototype in the mind of God.

    With regard to judgments of a more abstract or general type, the working of this view is quite simple. The realities to which abstract concepts refer have no material existence as such. There is no such thing, for instance, as action or reaction in general; nor are there any twos or fours. What we mean when we say that “action and reaction are equal and opposite”, or that “two and two make four”, is that these laws which in their own proper nature are ideal, are realized or actualized in the material universe in which we live; or, in other words, that the material things we see about us behave in accordance with these laws and through their activities manifest them to our minds.

    Perceptual judgments, i.e. the judgments which usually accompany and give expression to acts of perception, differ from the above in that they refer to objects which are immediately present to our senses. The realities in this case, therefore, are concrete existing things. It is, however, rather with the appearance of such things that our judgment is now concerned than with their essential nature or inner constitution. Thus, when we predicate colours, sounds, odours, flavours, hardness or softness, heat or cold of this or that object, we make no statement about the nature of such qualities, still less about the nature of the thing that possesses them. What we assert is

    that such and such a thing exists, and
    that it has a certain objective quality, which we call green, or loud, or sweet, or hard, or hot, to distinguish it from other qualities — red, or soft, or bitter, or cold — with which it is not identical; while
    our statement further implies that the same quality will similarly appear to any normally constituted man, i.e. will affect his senses in the same way that it affects our own.
    Accordingly, if in the real world such a condition of things obtains — if, that is to say, the thing in question does exist and has in fact some peculiar and distinctive property whereby it affects my senses in a certain peculiar and distinctive way — my judgment is true.
    The truth of perceptual judgments by no means implies an exact correspondence between what is perceived and the images, or sensation — complexes, whereby we perceive; nor does the Scholastic theory necessitate any such view. It is not the image, or sensation-complex, but the idea, that in judgment is referred to reality, and that gives us knowledge of reality. Colour and other qualities of objective things are doubtless perceived by means of sensation of peculiar and distinctive quality or tone, but no one imagines that this presupposes similar sensation in the object perceived. It is by means of the idea of colour and its specific differences that colours are predicated of objects, not by means of sensations Such an idea could not arise, indeed, were it not for the sensations which in perception accompany and condition it; but the idea itself is not a sensation, nor is it of a sensation. Ideas have their origin in sensible experience and are indefinable, so far as immediate experience goes, except by reference to such experience and by differentiation from experiences in which other and different properties of objects are presented Granted, therefore, that differences in what is technically known as the “quality” of sensation correspond to differences in the objective properties of things, the truth of perceptual judgments is assured. No further correspondence is required; for the correspondence which truth postulates is between idea and thing, not between sensation and thing. Sensation conditions knowledge, but as such it is not knowledge. It is, as it were, a connecting link between the idea and the thing. Differences of sensation are determined by the causal activity of things; and from the sensation-complex, or image the idea is derived by an instinctive and quasi-intuitive act of the mind which we call abstraction. Thus the idea which the thing unconsciously expresses finds conscious expression in the act of the knower, and the vast scheme of relations and laws which are de facto embodied in the material universe reproduce themselves in the consciousness of man.

    Correspondence between thought and reality, idea and thing, or knower and known, therefore, turns out in all cases to be of the very essence of the truth relation. Whence, say the opponents of our theory, in order to know whether our judgments are true or not, we must compare them with the realities that are known — a comparison that is obviously impossible, since reality can only be known through the instrumentality of the judgment. This objection, which is to be found in almost every non-Scholastic book dealing with the subject, rests upon a grave misapprehension of the real meaning of the Scholastic doctrine. Neither St. Thomas nor any other of the great Scholastics ever asserted that correspondence is the scholastic criterion of truth. To inquire what truth is, is one question; to ask how we know that we have judged truly, quite another. Indeed, the possibility of answering the second is supposed by the mere fact that the first is put. To be able to define truth, we must first possess it and know that we possess it, i.e. must be able to distinguish it from error. We cannot define that which we cannot distinguish and to some extent isolate. The Scholastic theory supposes, therefore, that truth has already been distinguished from error, and proceeds to examine truth with a view to discovering in what precisely it consists. This standpoint is epistemological, not criteriological. When he says that truth is correspondence, he is stating what truth is, not by what sign or mark it can be distinguished from error. By the old Scholastics the question of the criteria of truth was scarcely touched. They discussed the criteria of valid reasoning in their treatises on logic, but for the rest they left the discussion of particular criteria to the methodology of particular sciences. And rightly so, for there is really no criterion of universal application. The distinction of truth and error is at bottom intuitional. We cannot go on making criteria ad infinitum. Somewhere we must come to what is ultimate, either first principles or facts.

    This is precisely what the Scholastic theory of truth affirms. In deference to the modern demand for an infallible and universal criterion of truth, not a few Scholastic writers of late have suggested objective evidence. Objective evidence, however, is nothing more than the manifestation of the object itself, directly or indirectly, to the mind, and hence is not strictly a criterion of truth, but its foundation. As Père Geny puts it in his pamphlet discussing “Une nouvelle théorie de la connaissance”, to state that evidence is the ultimate criterion of truth is equivalent to stating that knowledge properly so called has no need of a criterion, since it is absurd to suppose a knowledge which does not know what it knows. Once grant, as all must grant who wish to avoid absolute scepticism, that knowledge is possible, and it follows that, properly used, our faculties must be capable of giving us truth. Doubtless, coherence and harmony with facts are pro tanto signs of truth’s presence in our minds; but what we need for the most part are not signs of truth, but signs or criteria of error — not tests whereby to discover when our faculties have gone right, but tests whereby to discover when they have gone wrong. Our judgments will be true, i.e. thought will correspond with its object, provided that object itself, and not any other cause, subjective or objective, determines the content of our thought. What we have to do, therefore, is to take care that our assent is determined by the evidence with which we are confronted, and by this alone. With regard to the senses this means that we must look to it that they are in good condition and that the circumstances under which we are exercising them are normal; with regard to the intellect that we must not allow irrelevant considerations to weigh with us, that we must avoid haste, and, as far as possible, get rid of bias, prejudice, and an over-anxious will to believe. If this be done, granted there is sufficient evidence, true judgments will naturally and necessarily result. The purpose of argument and discussion, as of all other processes that lead to knowledge, is precisely that the object under discussion may manifest itself in its various relations, either directly or indirectly, to the mind. And the object as thus manifesting itself is what the Scholastic calls evidence. It is the object, therefore, which in his view is the determining cause of truth. All kinds of processes, both mental and physical, may be necessary to prepare the way for an act of cognition, but in the last resort such an act must be determined as to its content by the causal activity of the object, which makes itself evident by producing in the mind an idea that is like to the idea of which its own existence is the realization.

    The Hegelian theory
    In the Idealism of Hegel and the Absolutism of the Oxford School (of which Mr. Bradley and Mr. Joachim are the leading representatives) both reality and truth are essentially one, essentially an organic whole. Truth, in fact, is but reality qua thought. It is an intelligent act in which the universe is thought as a whole of infinite parts or differences, all organically inter-related and somehow brought to unity. And because truth is thus organic, each element within it, each partial truth, is so modified by the others through and through that apart from them, and again apart from the whole, it is but a distorted fragment, a mutilated abstraction which in reality is not truth at all. Consequently, since human truth is always partial and fragmentary, there is in strictness no such thing as human truth. For us the truth is ideal, and from it our truths are so far removed that, to convert them into the truth, they would have to undergo a change of which we know neither the measure nor the extent.

    The flagrantly sceptical character of this theory is sufficiently obvious, nor is there any attempt on the part of its exponents to deny it. Starting with the assumption that to conceive is “to hold many elements together in a connexion necessitated by their several contents”, and that to be conceivable is to be “a significant whole”, i.e. a whole, “such that all its constituent elements reciprocally determine one another’s being as contributory features in a single concrete meaning”, Dr. Joachim boldly identifies the true with the conceivable (Nature of Truth, 66). And since no human intellect can conceive in this full and magnificent sense, he frankly admits that no human truth can be more than approximate, and that to the margin of error which this approximation involves no limits can be assigned. Human truth draws from absolute or ideal truth “whatever being and conservability” it possesses (Green, “Prolegom.”, article 77); but it is not, and never can be, identical with absolute truth, nor yet with any part of it, for these parts essentially and intrinsically modify one another. For his definition of human truth, therefore, the Absolutist is forced back upon the Scholastic doctrine of correspondence. Human truth represents or corresponds with absolute truth in proportion as it presents us with this truth as affected by more or less derangement, or in proportion as it would take more or less to convert the one into the other (Bradley, “Appearance and Reality”, 363). While, therefore, both theories assign correspondence as the essential characteristic of human truth, there is this fundamental difference between them: For the Scholastic this correspondence, so far as it goes, must be exact; but for the Absolutist it is necessarily imperfect, so imperfect, indeed, that “the ultimate truth” of any given proposition “may quite transform its original meaning” (Appearance and Reality, 364).

    To admit that human truth is essentially representative is really to admit that conception is something more than the mere “holding together of many elements in a connexion necessitated by their several contents”. But the fallacy of the “coherence theory” does not lie so much in this, nor yet in the identification of the true and the conceivable, as in its assumption that reality, and therefore truth, is organically one. The universe is undoubtedly one, in that its parts are inter-related and inter-dependent; and from this it follows that we cannot know any part completely unless we know the whole; but it does not follow that we cannot know any part at all unless we know the whole. If each part has some sort of being of its own, then it can be known for what it is, whether we know its relations to other parts or not; and similarly some of its relations to other parts can be known without our knowing them all. Nor is the individuality of the parts of the universe destroyed by their inter-dependence; rather it is thereby sustained.

    The sole ground which the Hegelian and the Absolutist have for denying these facts is that they will not square with their theory that the universe is organically one. Since, therefore, it is confessedly impossible to explain the nature of this unity or to show how in it the multitudinous differences of the universe are “reconciled”, and since, further, this theory is acknowledged to be hopelessly sceptical, it is surely irrational any longer to maintain it.

    The Pragmatic theory
    Life for the Pragmatist is essentially practical. All human activity is purposive, and its purpose is the control of human experience with a view to its improvement, both in the individual and in the race. Truth is but a means to this end. Ideas, hypotheses, and theories are but instruments which man has “made” in order to better both himself and his environment; and, though specific in type, like all other forms of human activity they exist solely for this end, and are “true” in so far as they fulfil it. Truth is thus a form of value: it is something that works satisfactorily; something that “ministers to human interests, purposes and objects of desire” (Studies in Humanism, 362). There are no axioms or self-evident truths. Until an idea or a judgment has proved itself of value in the manipulation of concrete experience, it is but a postulate or claim to truth. Nor are there any absolute or irreversible truths. A proposition is true so long as it proves itself useful, and no longer. In regard to the essential features of this theory of truth W. James, John Dewey, and A.W. Moore in America, F.C.S. Schiller in England, G. Simmel in Germany, Papini in Italy, and Henri Bergson, Le Roy, and Abel Rey in France are all substantially in agreement. It is, they say, the only theory which takes account of the psychological processes by which truth is made, and the only theory which affords a satisfactory answer to the arguments of the sceptic.

    In regard to the first of these claims there can be no doubt that Pragmatism is based upon a study of truth “in the making”. But the question at issue is not whether interest, purpose, emotion, and volition do as a matter of fact play a part in the process of cognition. That is not disputed. The question is whether, in judging of the validity of a claim to truth, such considerations ought to have weight. If the aim of all cognitive acts is to know reality as it is, then clearly judgments are true only in so far as they satisfy this demand. But this does not help us in deciding what judgments are true and what are not, for the truth of a judgment must already be known before this demand can be satisfied. Similarly with regard to particular interests and purposes; for though such interests and purposes may prompt us to seek for knowledge, they will not be satisfied until we know truly, or at any rate think we know truly. The satisfaction of our needs, in other words, is posterior to, and already supposes, the possession of true knowledge about whatever we wish to use as a means to the satisfaction of those needs. To act efficiently, we must know what it is we are acting upon and what will be the effects of the action contemplated. The truth of our judgments is verified by their consequences only in those cases where we know that such consequences should ensue if our judgment be true, and then act in order to discover whether in reality they will ensue.

    Theoretically, and upon Scholastic principles, since whatever is true is also good, true judgments ought to result in good consequences. But, apart from the fact that the truth of our judgment must in many cases be known before we can act upon them with success, the Pragmatic criterion is too vague and too variable to be of any practical use. “Good consequences”, “successful operations on reality”, “beneficial interaction with sensible particulars” denote experiences which it is not easy to recognize or to distinguish from other experiences less good, less successful, and less beneficial. If we take personal valuations as our test, these are proverbially unstable; while, if social valuations alone are admissible, where are they to be found, and upon what grounds accepted by the individual? Moreover, when a valuation has been made, how are we to know that it is accurate? For this, it would seem, further valuations will be required, and so on ad infinitum. Distinctively pragmatic criteria of truth are both impractical and unreliable, especially the criterion of felt satisfaction, which seems to be the favourite, for in determining this not only the personal factor, but the mood of the moment and even physical conditions play a considerable part. Consequently upon the second head the claim of the Pragmatist can by no means be allowed. The Pragmatist theory is not a whit less sceptical than the theory of the Absolutist, which it seeks to displace. If truth is relative to purposes and interests, and if these purposes and interests are, as they are admitted to be, one and all tinged by personal idiosyncrasy, then what is true for one man will not be true for another, and what is true now will not be true when a change takes place either in the interest that has engendered it or in the circumstances by which it has been verified.

    All this the Pragmatist grants, but replies that such truth is all that man needs and all that he can get. True judgments do not correspond with reality, nor in true judgments do we know reality as it is. The function of cognition, in short, is not to know reality, but to control it. For this reason truth is identified with its consequences — theoretical, if the truth be merely virtual, but in the end practical, particular, concrete. “Truth means successful operations on reality” (Studies in Hum., 118). The truth-relation “consists of intervening parts of the universe which can in every particular case be assigned and catalogued” (Meaning of Truth, 234). “The chain of workings which an opinion sets up is the opinion’s truth” (Ibid., 235). Thus, in order to refute the Sceptic, the Pragmatist changes the nature of truth, redefining it as the definitely experienceable success which attends the working of certain ideas and judgments; and in so doing he grants precisely what the Sceptic seeks to prove, namely, that our cognitive faculties are incapable of knowing reality as it is. (See PRAGMATISM.)

    The “New” Realist’s theory
    As it is a first principle with both Absolutist and Pragmatist that reality is changed by the very act in which we know it, so the negation of this thesis is the root principle of “New” Realism. In this the “New” Realist is at one with the Scholastic. Reality does not depend upon experience, nor is it modified by experience as such. The “New” Realist, however, has not as yet adopted the correspondence theory of truth. He regards both knowledge and truth as unique relations which hold immediately between knower and known, and which are as to their nature indefinable. “The difference between subject and object of consciousness is not a difference of quality or substance, but a difference of office or place in a configuration” (Journal of Phil. Psychol. and Scientific Meth., VII, 396). Reality is made up of terms and their relations, and truth is just one of these relations, sui generis, and therefore recognizable only by intuition. This account of truth is undoubtedly simple, but there is at any rate one point which it seems altogether to ignore, viz., the existence of judgments and ideas of which, and not of the mind as such, the truth-relation is predicable. We have not on the one hand objects and on the other bare mind; but on the one hand objects and on the other a mind that by means of the judgment refers its own ideas to objects — ideas which as such, both in regard to their existence and their content, belong to the mind which judges. What then is the relation that holds between these ideas and their objects when our judgments are true, and again when they are false? Surely both logic and criteriology imply that we know something more about such judgments than merely that they are different.

    Bertrand Russell, who has given in his adhesion to “The Program and First Platform of Six Realists”, drawn up and signed by six American professors in July, 1910, modifies somewhat the naïveté of their theory of truth. “Every judgment”, he says (Philos. Essays, 181), “is a relation of a mind to several objects, one of which is a relation. Thus, the judgment, ‘Charles I died on the scaffold’, denotes several objects or ‘objectives’ which are related in a certain definite way, and the relation is as real in this case as are the other objectives. The judgment ‘Charles I died in his bed’, on the other hand, denotes the objects, Charles I, death, and bed, and a certain relation between them, which in this case does not relate the objects as it is supposed to relate them. A judgment therefore, is true, when the relation which is one of the objects relates the other objects, otherwise it is false” (loc. cit.). In this statement of the nature of truth: correspondence between the mind judging and the objects about which we judge is distinctly implied, and it is precisely this correspondence which is set down as the distinguishing mark of true judgments. Russell however, unfortunately seems to be at variance with other members of the New Realist school on this point. G.E. Moore expressly rejects the correspondence theory of truth (“Mind”, N. S., VIII, 179 sq.), and Prichard, another English Realist, explicitly states that in knowledge there is nothing between the object and ourselves (Kant’s Theory of Knowledge, 21). Nevertheless, it is matter for rejoicing that in regard to the main points at issue — the non-alteration of reality by acts of cognition, the possibility of knowing it in some respects without its being known in all, the growth of knowledge by “accretion”, the non-spiritual character of some of the objects of experience, and the necessity of ascertaining empirically and not by a priori methods, the degree of unity which obtains between the various parts of the universe—the “New” Realist and the Scholastic Realist are substantially in agreement.

    Moral truth, or veracity
    Veracity is the correspondence of the outward expression given to thought with the thought itself. It must not be confused with verbal truth (veritas locutionis), which is the correspondence of the outward or verbal expression with the thing that it is intended to express. The latter supposes on the part of the speaker not only the intention of speaking truly, but also the power so to do, i.e. it supposes (1) true knowledge and (2) a right use of words. Moral truth, on the other hand, exists whenever the speaker expresses what is in his mind even if de facto he be mistaken, provided only that he says what he thinks to be true. This latter condition however, is necessary. Hence a better definition of moral truth would be “the correspondence of the outward expression of thought with the thing as conceived by the speaker”. Moral truth, therefore, does not imply true knowledge. But, though a deviation from moral truth would be only materially a lie, and hence not blameworthy, unless the use of words or signs were intentionally incorrect, moral truth does imply a correct use of words or other signs. A lie therefore, is an intentional deviation from moral truth, and is defined as a locutio contra mentem; i.e. it is the outward expression of a thought which is intentionally diverse from the thing as conceived by the speaker. It is important to observe, however, that the expression of the thought, whether by word or by sign, must in all cases be taken in its context; for both in regard to words and to signs, custom and circumstances make a considerable difference with respect to their interpretation. Veracity, or the habit of speaking the truth, is a virtue; and the obligation of practising it arises from a twofold source. First, “since man is a social animal, naturally one man owes to another that without which human society could not go on. But men could not live together if they did not believe one another to be speaking the truth. Hence the virtue of veracity comes to some extent under the head of justice [rationem debiti]” (St. Thomas, Summa Theologiæ II-II.109.3). The second source of the obligation to veracity arises from the fact that speech is clearly of its very nature intended for the communication of knowledge by one to another. It should be used, therefore, for the purpose for which it is naturally intended, and lies should be avoided. For lies are not merely a misuse, but an abuse, of the gift of speech, since, by destroying man’s instinctive belief in the veracity of his neighbour, they tend to destroy the efficacy of that gift.

  91. “You are to let your light shine but do so with wisdom and discretion. No man, when he lights a lamp, covers it up with a vessel or puts it under the bed; he puts his lamp on a stand where all can behold the light. Let me tell you that nothing is hid in the kingdom of heaven which shall not be made manifest; neither are there any secrets which shall not ultimately be made known. Eventually, all these things shall come to light. Think not only of the multitudes and how they hear the truth; take heed also to yourselves how you hear. Remember that I have many times told you: To him who has shall be given more, while from him who has not shall be taken away even that which he thinks he has.”
    Jesus our God.

  92. That would appear to be a perversion of a Scripture.. and since you are so fond of them:

    Rev 22:18 I testify to the one who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

      1. For christians and all from the 20th century:

        And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12.

  93. Geoff :
    That would appear to be a perversion of a Scripture.. and since you are so fond of them:
    Rev 22:18 I testify to the one who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

    A liberation for you:

    (1555.7) 139:4.14 When in temporary exile on Patmos, John wrote the Book of Revelation, which you now have in greatly abridged and distorted form. This Book of Revelation contains the surviving fragments of a great revelation, large portions of which were lost, other portions of which were removed, subsequent to John’s writing. It is preserved in only fragmentary and adulterated form.

    http://www.urantia.org/en/urantia-book-standardized/paper-139-twelve-apostles

  94. Joel :
    Well, you certainly have taken liberties with the text, the truth and reality

    Just as certainly as men share their religious beliefs, they create a religious group of some sort which eventually creates common goals. Someday religionists will get together and actually effect co-operation on the basis of unity of ideals and purposes rather than attempting to do so on the basis of psychological opinions and theological beliefs. goals rather than creeds should unify religionists. Since true religion is a matter of personal spiritual experience, it is inevitable that each individual religionist must have his own and personal interpretation of the realization of that spiritual experience. Let the term “faith” stand for the individual’s relation to God rather than for the creedal formulation of what some group of mortals have been able to agree upon as a common religious attitude. “Have you faith? Then have it to yourself.”

  95. Joel :
    More silliness

      1. It Self matery read by Pato Banton and this one is: Instructions for Teachers and beleivers read by Pato Banton too.

  96. Truth is Expanding

    However wise it may be to glean wisdom from the past, it is folly to regard the past as the exclusive source of truth. Truth is relative and expanding; it lives always in the present, achieving new expression in each generation of men–even in each human life.

      1. You read here in Hebrews 2:

        9 But we do see Michael of Nebadon, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

  97. Matthew 28;18

    16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
    18 Then Jesus came to them and said,

    “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

    Then He don’t have the power to transmit a better revelation of the Truth before a new dispensation?

    1. Claude,

      It is entirely possible that you are clinically insane. You have virtually said nothing sensible in about 50 posts. Christians, whilst we might not be “spiritual” enough to understand your amazing new revelation given to you by aliens, through a man who was asleep and has no recollection of the event, and “put together” by a bunch of 19th century spiritualists, at least make sense.

  98. Geoff :
    Claude,
    It is entirely possible that you are clinically insane. You have virtually said nothing sensible in about 50 posts. Christians, whilst we might not be “spiritual” enough to understand your amazing new revelation given to you by aliens, through a man who was asleep and has no recollection of the event, and “put together” by a bunch of 19th century spiritualists, at least make sense.

    Andre and you too then. And Paul.

    1I wish that you would (A)bear with me in a little (B)foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me.

    2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I (C)betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might (D)present you as a pure virgin.

    3But I am afraid that, as the (E)serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

    4For if one comes and preaches (F)another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a (G)different spirit which you have not received, or a (H)different gospel which you have not accepted, you (I)bear this (J)beautifully.

    5For I consider myself (K)not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles.

    6But even if I am (L)unskilled in speech, yet I am not so in (M)knowledge; in fact, in every way we have (N)made this evident to you in all things.

    7Or (O)did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached the (P)gospel of God to you (Q)without charge?

    8I robbed other churches by (R)taking wages from them to serve you;

    9and when I was present with you and was in need, I was (S)not a burden to anyone; for when (T)the brethren came from (U)Macedonia they fully supplied my need, and in everything I kept myself from (V)being a burden to you, and will continue to do so.

    10(W)As the truth of Christ is in me, (X)this boasting of mine will not be stopped in the regions of (Y)Achaia.

    11Why? (Z)Because I do not love you? (AA)God knows I do!

    12But what I am doing I will continue to do, (AB)so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting.

    13For such men are (AC)false apostles, (AD)deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

    14No wonder, for even (AE)Satan disguises himself as an (AF)angel of light.

    15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, (AG)whose end will be according to their deeds.

    16(AH)Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, so that I also may boast a little.

    17What I am saying, I am not saying (AI)as the Lord would, but as (AJ)in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting.

    18Since (AK)many boast (AL)according to the flesh, I will boast also.

    19For you, (AM)being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly.

    20For you tolerate it if anyone (AN)enslaves you, anyone (AO)devours you, anyone (AP)takes advantage of you, anyone (AQ)exalts himself, anyone (AR)hits you in the face.

    21To my (AS)shame I must say that we have been (AT)weak by comparison But in whatever respect anyone else (AU)is bold–I (AV)speak in foolishness–I am just as bold myself.

    22Are they (AW)Hebrews? (AX)So am I Are they (AY)Israelites? (AZ)So am I Are they (BA)descendants of Abraham? (BB)So am I.

    23Are they (BC)servants of Christ?–I speak as if insane–I more so; in (BD)far more labors, in (BE)far more imprisonments, (BF)beaten times without number, often in (BG)danger of death.

    24Five times I received from the Jews (BH)thirty-nine lashes.

    25Three times I was (BI)beaten with rods, once I was (BJ)stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep.

    26I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my (BK)countrymen, dangers from the (BL)Gentiles, dangers in the (BM)city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among (BN)false brethren;

    27I have been in (BO)labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in (BP)hunger and thirst, often (BQ)without food, in cold and (BR)exposure.

    28Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for (BS)all the churches.

    29Who is (BT)weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern?

    30If I have to boast, I will boast of what pertains to my (BU)weakness.

    31The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, (BV)He who is blessed forever, (BW)knows that I am not lying.

  99. Geoff :
    what?

    Important Alert for Los Angeles and the Pacific Rim
    By Candace, June 3, 2008

    Dear Readers of Abundanthope. It is looking highly possible that Mother is not going to wait on the LA area, and it may well go into the sea sometime this month. I need all of you to circulate this about on other forums and to those you know who could be affected. The following is for readers NOT familiar with AbundantHope.

    Hello dear readers not familiar with AbundantHope. I am the creator of this Organization and it is an international team in service of the Second Coming Process.

    The Las Angeles basin is NOT over land. It is over ocean. This area is sitting on a “shelf.” The danger in this is that the area, as you well know, is a massive area of faults and also there is huge cavern system under this basin. The United States government knows about it, and the Navy back in the 1970’s explored these by submarine and actually covered this in a small magazine that is not available on the Internet. This area is going to go into the sea, and it will be catastrophic for the entire pacific rim, from the resultant Tsunami’s and other earthquakes that will manifest from this. It is possible some other quakes will manifest first, setting up this event. The LA area is simply going to crumble. It will fall approximately 100 feet.

    The area involved is bounded directly on the north side of LA, along the Raymond Fault line on over to the San Andreas fault, which forms the western boundary. The southern boundary is across the Baja, approximately at the Colorado River outlet.

    Now there is a solution to this, do not shut up this piece and refuse to read it at this point.The reason is that you in the affected areas are going to be evacuated by Star Fleet, all of you who choose to do so. It is your personal choice and there will be no force.

    Some of you have heard of Ashtar Command. This is a large command with the specialty of evacuating people from a planet in big trouble. This is always done in the case of impending pole reversal or impending nuclear catastrophe. Neither is going to occur in this situation. The poles are not going to reverse and star fleet for a few years now disables every single nuclear bomb that black ops tries to use, everywhere of the planet.

    What you are looking at is a regional rather than a planetary evacuation. The government of the USA was approached strongly years ago, that this would be impending and they must begin preparations. All they did was dig nice little holes for themselves to survive the changes, caring not at all about the rest of us. Did you know both China and Russia can house their entire populations underground in case of catastrophic problems? They are the only countries that have done so, for the people. Many others have built facilities for the elite.

    Ashtar Command came in the 1950’s after the planet was stabilized to prevent a pole reversal by other ships which came for that purpose after WW2. Those of you familiar with Revelations have read about the Holy City, the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven. Dear ones, that is the Ashtar Command, command ship!!!!! It was known way back then of this possibility, and the Roman church knows that. And we aren’t going to build a “new heaven and a new earth”, because a new heaven is NOT needed, the “old one” is just fine. We will build a heavenly condition upon this new earth.

    The New Jerusalem is huge, so it doesn’t land. It has aboard it, in a massive computer system, the soul records of every single souled being on this planet, and it can find you from these records. It’s “commander” is Ashtar, a very old and experienced being. His large team is highly skilled in totally serving the needs of people that are evacuated, and although only the necessary of people along the pacific rim will be evacuated, this command is capable of evacuating every ensouled person on this planet in 15 minutes time, in the case of a nuclear holocaust. Nuclear detonation harms soul matrix.

    Now, lets get to the details. Once the geophysicists of the command have determined this event is imminent, it will begin the evacuation of the LA area first. Imminent will mean about 2-3 days before it will occur. You will be evacuated via small shuttle craft up to around 200-300 feet in diameter. Only a few of these might actually land. They will hover over the areas to be evacuated about 20 – 100 feet in the air. We will hope to have media assistance in this, but it is highly unlikely. There will be great numbers of craft and obviously this will occur in the daytime.

    Each craft will put down a beam of visible light, and you board the craft by stepping into the light. You will rise into the craft much more comfortably than an elevator ride. I know. I have done it. There will be ones in great fear of this because of the horrible alien stories on this planet. Assist them as you can, but dear ones, if they refuse, you must go ahead yourself. Evacuations are never complete for this reason. Some people will not board craft, even under better circumstances and preparation. It does no good to pick them against their will, and God doesn’t do that in these situations. These ones will die of their fear, and this just causes more fear.

    You do not pack anything. You maybe allowed to take pets, and you will know on this. There is planned quite adequate time, unless something is unforeseen. After you are evacuated perhaps the media will agree to cover it for the others. We do not know if there will be cooperation. Star fleet has everything you need. After the shuttle craft picks you up, you will be taken to a large mother ship or evacuation craft. The largest of these crafts for evacuation purposes are 8000 MILES long and carry millions of people. One of these larger craft can handle all the people in the LA basin if necessary, as an example.

    Once aboard your evacuation craft or mother ship, there are a great deal of highly trained “social workers” and medical personnel. Some of you will be ill from the experience of the light beam. Which brings me a memory of another issue. I have talked about ascension syndrome. Your bodies, in preparation for this, have been subjected to special energy beams, both through the sun, from mother ships and in concert with your guardian angels to prepare your bodies for this beam.

    The illness, should you have it is quite temporary and much like a nasty case of the flu. And star fleet has so much better treatment for this than earth doctors. The ships have a higher energy vibration than the earth, but the earth’s energy has been raised to help prepare people for the additional coming changes. This preparation is the source of many of your symptoms and that includes ear tones, the occasional nausea and aches, pains and fatigue. Those people suffering extreme fear will be put in a special sleep state, until everything is under control, so they don’t generate chaos. Those of you with intact emotions will be asked to assist.

    Again, do not pack, you need bring nothing. There is Not time for this. You will be completely provided for and dear ones, the food is going to be a lot better for your health. In a way, you will be spending time in a health spa!!!!! And the bathrooms are very fine, no flushing toilets and waste. Your waste is instantly “evaporated” after it leaves your body. After everything is calm and stable you will be united with any family members should you have became separated. Do not worry if you are working in a tall building, there are plans for evacuation of those.

    This MAY not manifest this month, but it is going to manifest and it is highly likely it well in the next few weeks. Since many of you may not aware of my website, there is another plan in place. Jupiter is going to become our new second small sun, all part of the ascension process. This will be dramatic, and before it does, the earth is going to be put into a state called stasis, which is sort of like pausing the button on the DVD player.

    There will be some movement of earths axis during this time and there will be significant destruction and too much for man to handle. We tried a preparation plan for that but again, the governments of the world only thought about themselves. It was hoped that LA would wait until this time of stasis and Jupiter, but Mother Earth seems to not be waiting. There is still some large scale details being worked out, and if Mother Earth is not going to wait, this will actually be a huge learning for the planet, and assist people to understand what happened when we come out of the stasis. The stasis period will last for months and it is not the purpose of this piece to detail that at this time. This piece is for you, on the Pacific Rim.

    Now, after LA is evacuated, the process moves to the rest of the western coasts of North and South America that will be affected by tsunami. Dear ones, board the craft, because tsunami’s will be up to 1000 feet high, possibly even more. You are not going to survive this, except through this evacuation. Then the evacuation will continue on to the islands at risk in the Pacific Ocean and then on to the Asian rim, the areas covered based on the expected results of the wave action. You in LA must be evacuated before the ground begins to give way. It was already planned to evacuate you during stasis, and then sink LA so this would not rear it’s ugly head after the awakening of the planet, should the Jupiter event have not sunk it. This is a GIFT dear ones, please take of it.

    Now there are many options once you are aboard. Many of you will be offered the opportunity to migrate to other planets with open willing arms to receive you. Some of you may return to the surface, after the stasis, not before, and could live with relatives, or occupy the underground areas. You will never return back home, as the destruction will be beyond repair, and LA will not rise back up from the sea. It may very well be possible to return back somewhat inland after the damage. But you will spend months on ship if you are to return to the planet. This must come after stasis is over, and the surface is ready for your return.

    In the case of total planetary destruction, every one goes to other planets. Space travel is quite rapid. There are ships with capability to reach the closest star in Pleiades in 10 short minutes. Go back and review what you learned from the Star Trek films. Dear ones, in Nebadon our universe alone, there are 3.8 million planets with life evolving in various stages on them, and many are much older than planet earth and marvelous places to dwell. ]

    Before I began my incarnations here in service 400 years ago, I spent time readjusting to planetary life, having lived on the architectural spheres of “heaven.” Urantia Book readers, you know what I mean by that!!!! I spent some time on a wonderful planet called Myrua, an 8th dimensional world and very advanced in light and life. This planet encircles the sun called Merope of the Seven Sisters, and during the stasis I will go back for a brief homecoming.

    You have nothing to fear, and a great adventure ahead!!!!! In fact, once aboard, some of you are going to have some old soul memories come back, and will remember of this. All physical people travel the universe in star ships and so do most angels, dear ones. And you will meet angels aboard ship, these are master caretakers. They do not however have “wings”. The craft picking you up are Pleiadian craft and all will have human body type staff upon them. But note, this is Not the only body type in the universe!!!!

    Only a few very advanced spirits can travel without a ship of some sort. There are some that can manufacture their own ship by mind alone if needed. There are folks in our skies who will manifest a ship, if you need to see a ship. But the vast majority travel by ship.

    I ask that all of you circulate this, even at the risk of laughter or put downs. Please place this alert on other boards you may belong too. In doing so, you will hopefully increase the number of people who will choose to board the craft. Even if rejected now, when the time comes, they are going to remember seeing it.

    Please go out on a clear night and find those “stars” with the pretty flashing strobe lights! They have been in our skies for more than 50 years but few have noticed them.

    I am placing two links here. The first is of pictures taken of evacuation ships stationed out by Saturn’s rings. It comes from the Italian Nexus magazine, but I did place a very poor Babel Fish English translation into the post. http://abundanthope.net/pages/article_1110.shtml

    This link is our latest piece done with Commander Soltec, the head geophysicist of Ashtar Command. The piece is with another on my team named Jess. It is a little updating summary and not thorough, but you should read it.
    http://abundanthope.net/pages/article_1631.shtml

    If Mother does not cause this outcome in the next few weeks, once the preparations are fully ready for the stasis and the Jupiter event, you will find yourself aboard ship anyway, as you would be evacuated during your “sleep state” of stasis. The final determination of all of this regards the timing ,rests with the decision of Christ Michael, Creator Son and thus God of Nebadon, who visited this planet 2000 years ago. I am writing this on his commission tonight.

    Take care, I AM Candace, CEO and President of AbundantHope, in partnership with Sananda Immanuel Esu and Christ Michael. This is an international team, and it will serve for those projected 1000 future years of the Golden age we will build upon this planet.

    As often said in Star Trek, something to the affect of “Go Forth and Prosper Well.”

    Seeking Visionaries,who can and will create the many messianic missions needed to heal Earth and her peoples, and bring balance. Seeking those who Know their truth, and will strive earnestly to stand in that truth 100% of the time, making every moment of everyday, a Holy Event. TWO OR MORE IN MY NAME. ~ http://www.abundanthope.net

    All writings by members of AbundantHope are copyrighted by
    ©2005-2008 AbundantHope – All rights reserved

    Detailed explanation of AbundnatHope’s Copyright’s are found here

  100. Urantia Papers–“one hundred times” more than Christian/Mormon scripture

    * June 10, 2011 5:12 pm MT

    Len Mckee

    * SLC Religion & Science Examiner

    The Urantia Book—100 times more substance than Mormon/Christian scripture

    The Bible is the basis for all Christianity’s beliefs. For the Mormons (Latter Day Saints), their scriptural source also includes the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. The Urantia Book—printed in 1955 and of no organized religious affiliation—claims to contain revealed truths, history and cosmology that includes, and makes sense of, all the religions of the world—even those religions not based upon Jesus of Nazareth. One could easily say the Urantia Papers contain 100 times more information about God, time, space and history than do the traditional “scriptures of the world.”

    In Mormonism’s formative years, there are scriptural references strongly alluding to “a greater record to come” which would contain the “mysteries of the universe” wherein “all things shall be revealed from the beginning of time.”

    “And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

    And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.” (3 Ne. 26:9,10)

    The Book of Mormon, printed in approximately 1830, refers to itself as the “lesser portion” and speaks boldly regarding the “greater portion” to come. No account or claim fills that criterion of the greater things to come … that is, until 1955, when the Urantia Papers materialized.

    “Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared. (Ether 4: 4)

    And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.” (Ether 4:8)

    In the book of Alma, it is recorded that he who receives the lesser portion with gladness “to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.” (Alma 12: 10)

    “And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;” (3 Ne 26: 6)

    And a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, which now began to be numerous, cannot be written upon these plates; but many of their proceedings are written upon the larger plates, and their wars, and their contentions, and the reigns of their kings.” (Jacob 3: 13)

    Mormon himself, from whom the Book of Mormon was named, says, regarding the things which he writes in the ‘lesser portion’ of his plate-record…

    “Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.” (Words of Mormon 1:5)

    “And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you.” (Mormon 8: 12)

    No person, religion or organization claims to have authored the Urantia Papers … rather, its various authors’ claim are of celestial origin. But does the Urantia Book really reveal a hundred times more information than other Christian scripture? Consider the following:

    The word “Jesus” is used:

    943 times in the Bible

    168 times in the Book of Mormon

    108 times in the Doctrine and Covenants

    15 times in the Pearl of Great Price

    7,287 times in the Urantia Papers

    This does not count the references to Jesus as the word-term “Master,” which is often used in the Bible, and very often used in the Urantia Papers.

    This word “Master” is noted:

    67 times in the Bible

    0 times in the BofM

    Continue reading on Examiner.com Urantia Papers–“one hundred times” more than Christian/Mormon scripture – Salt Lake City Religion & Science | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/religion-science-in-salt-lake-city/urantia-papers-one-hundred-times-more-than-christian-mormon-scripture#ixzz1QaecU3vt

  101. Claude, that is a logical fallacy. Just because the same term is used in the FER, it does not make it legitimate.

    Nor does using the name Jesus 3x as many times as the bible make it more accurate.

    You say “Jesus is Lord”, but what you _really_ mean is “Jesus is _a_ Lord”. When we say “Jesus is Lord” we mean that Jesus is King, the FINAL authority of all creation. Not just one “sper being” among many.

  102. Is The Urantia Book that “Greater Record to Come” as Prophesied in the Book of Mormon? (Part 1)

          1. I think the operative words are “make things up”. The Urantia Book uses many things assumed to be fact in the late 1800, early 1900 period.. (theologically and scientifically). Many of them we now know to be false.. They are just false 😛

  103. Göbekli Tepe is a hilltop sanctuary erected on the highest point of an elongated mountain ridge in southeastern Turkey, some 15 kilometres (9.3 mi) northeast of the town of Şanlıurfa (formerly Urfa / Edessa). The site, currently undergoing excavation by German and Turkish archaeologists, was most likely erected by hunter-gatherers in the 9th millennium BCE (c. 11,000 years ago). Together with Nevalı Çori, it has revolutionized understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

    It’s 13,500 to 12,000 years ago i have read in an other place.
    Perhaps the Land of Nod?

    1. Oh My Oh My…

      The answer to the question, all the questions, is “no”.

      Nicely done video though, doesn’t look like a bunch of insane people made it…

  104. The information collected on this site are not from channeled sources but from the first hand experience of real individuals
    as well as scientific resources. ~ Michael from Maui

    Listen to Michael tell his story… taken off the Earth to a huge luminous sphere near Saturn.
    The celestial beings call their architectural world… New Jerusalem.

    http://helloearth.info/michaelconnection/michaelconnection.html

    Urantia Connection

    Michael says in one of the recordings:
    Truthfully, The Urantia Book was introduced to me
    on the Mothership near the planet Saturn by a very human looking individual
    who saw me seated in bewilderment and confusion. He simply said, “You look confused.”, I said I was. Then he said, “Well then, on Earth there is a book that helps explain what is going on here.” Then I said, “Oh you mean the Bible.”
    Then he said, “Yes, that book has some of it, but it is not that book,
    it’s called The Book of Earth or The Urantia Book.”
    Later he sat with me and explain the seven psychic circles,
    the work of the God’s fractal and introduced himself as a Daynal.
    I got him confused with the prophet Daniel but he corrected me, he said
    he was a teacher. There is much more that he taught me, most is in
    The Urantia Book, some is in the Bible.

    http://helloearth.info/urantiaconnection/urantiaconnection.html

    Enjoy.

      1. Cannabis.:-) It has been created by God. 🙂 no i don’t smoke pot often. Why you ask me what i’m smoking?
        This testimony is not mine but it is strong frankly.

          1. and ironically, the Urantia cult is pretty very similar to Mormonism.. and yet you wouldnt see Claude running for president now would ya?

  105. About scripture: Words eventually became fetishes, more especially those which were regarded as God’s words; in this way the sacred books of many religions have become fetishistic prisons incarcerating the spiritual imagination of man.

    Moses’ very effort against fetishes became a supreme fetish; his commandment was later used to stultify art and to retard the enjoyment and adoration of the beautiful.

    In olden times the fetish word of authority was a fear-inspiring doctrine, the most terrible of all tyrants which enslave men. A doctrinal fetish will lead mortal man to betray himself into the clutches of bigotry, fanaticism, superstition, intolerance, and the most atrocious of barbarous cruelties.

    Modern respect for wisdom and truth is but the recent escape from the fetish-making tendency up to the higher levels of thinking and reasoning.

    Concerning the accumulated fetish writings which various religionists hold as sacred books, it is not only believed that what is in the book is true, but also that every truth is contained in the book.

    If one of these sacred books happens to speak of the earth as being flat, then, for long generations, otherwise sane men and women will refuse to accept positive evidence that the planet is round.

    1. Geoff, you are delusional., the Urantia book is not a cult, it’s a recent revelation of Truth. I’m living for the glory of God only.

      1. You dont even know who God is.. you think Jesus (God) is some kind of higher spirit who controls part of the galaxy or universe or something.

        And.. if your revelation of truth was in fact truthful, why is it full of scientific and historical errors, as well as a whole bunch of 19th and 20th century superstition?

        Honestly man.. science has PROVEN that there is no such thing as automatic writing.. PROVEN.. You’ve been deceived.

          1. Nah, it’s just been a rough day dealing with those who believe the internet is their domain and only to be used to make people stupider

          2. well… that and I am having a new keyboard or maybe Xenu is beaming new messages into my head… Danger Danger will robinson beam me up scotty resistance is futile

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