Unsettled Christianity

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March 2nd, 2012

Book Announcement: Forsaken by Thomas H. McCall @ivpress

Click to Order

This looks like an interesting title. You can read an excerpt here:

“My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” How should a Christian interpret this passage? What implications does the cross have for the trinitarian theology? Did the Father kill the Son? Theologian Thomas McCall presents a trinitarian reading of Christ’s darkest moment–the moment of his prayer to his heavenly Father from the cross. McCall revisits the biblical texts and surveys the various interpretations of Jesus’ cry, ranging from early church theologians to the Reformation to contemporary theologians. Along the way, he explains the terms of the scholarly debate and clearly marks out what he believes to be the historically orthodox point of view. By approaching the Son’s cry to the Father as an event in the life of the Triune God, Forsaken seeks to recover the true poignancy of the orthodox perspective on the cross.

Also, you can find a (near?) complete list of IVP’s excerpts via scribd here:

http://www.scribd.com/InterVarsityPress

Tags: intervarsity press, Thomas H. McCall, trinity
Posted in Books | No Comments »

February 14th, 2012

Trinitarian Tuesdays: The Sun

Sun Pillar (Photo credit: Axiraa)

A Theology Professor of mine introduced me to this concept… these aren’t his words, but the concept is the same:

The Sun could be seen as the Father, the light that is begotten from the Sun can be seen as Christ, as he says I am the light of the world, and the heat from the sun and light which proceeds from them both, can be seen as the Holy Spirit who proceeds from both the Father and the Son as the creed says. So you have them sharing in the exact same essence or substance, yet different in relation to one another and in function. (here)

I can no longer call myself a true non-Trinitarian… so I will stick with non-non-Trinitarian

Tags: trinity
Posted in Godhead | 5 Comments »

October 14th, 2011

The Trinity is a Work, not Faith

Image via Wikipedia

Well, everything comes around again. So some are discussing the confusion of many with the Gospel and certain doctrines.

First, the Trinity is a way of explaining the Godhead, but it is not the only way. To confuse creeds and doctrines with the Gospel – that Christ saved us from our sins – is to put the work back into the hands of humanity, as if we discovered the mystery, as if that discovery is what saves us. As if we couldn’t possibly be wrong about the way we describe God. Surely not. We weren’t wrong with Constantine (and I note the origins of creedal orthodoxy), the Crusades, the Salem Witchtrails, oppression of men, women and children. The Church was never wrong about the way it pursued ‘doctrinal purity’, stood against science, gave a religious reason to colonize and commit genocide.

The Gospel is not doctrine, dogma or creeds. As Mark Stevens, 3 of 9 of uni-matrix 7, wrote:

…I think the gospel is the announcement that Jesus is Israel’s Messiah and Lord of the world! (As in Wright and more recently McKnight)

Be surprised but I think when you live outside of the US evangelical bubble you see things very differently. The US is the only place that is having these discussions and then a very small part of if the US at that!

Now, that can be verified by Scripture, from the earliest Christians. And yet… what about the Doctrine of the Trinity? There are so many versions of it, but pick the one you like, and defend it first completely from Scripture, then from Church History, and then from biblical scholarship. Now, watch the others do the exact same thing.

Sorry, guys, but ‘Orthodoxy’ is pertaining to generally the Tradition in Charge. I prefer orthopraxy. I prefer the communion of those who disagree, and even reject the doctrines of another, but around the Table of the Lord, can break bread together, in humble admission that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved not by our works (of doctrine, or otherwise), but by Christ.

Anti-Trinitarians in the Gospel Coalition? (wateristhickerthanblood.wordpress.com)

Tags: trinity
Posted in Godhead | 15 Comments »

September 12th, 2011

Christ or Trinity? – Really?

The answer to the first question is decidedly yes: there is a difference between Christological and Trinitarian hermeneutics. The former, readings that explore the ramifications of scripture for the story of the crucified and risen Christ, points us to the ministry of Jesus, in particular his death, resurrection, and exalted Lordship. The latter points us to the divinity of Christ.

Christ or Trinity? | Storied Theology.

I didn’t want to save this for the weekend. I think he’s correct, and the more so because we constantly let outdated theologies – yes, I know – get in the way of Christ.

Tags: christology, JRD Kirk, trinity
Posted in Godhead | No Comments »

August 12th, 2011

Stanley Grenz on the Trinity

… the distinctions within the one God are ontological. There are three – Father, Son and Spirit – who together comprise the one God. Were the threeness of the one God not ontological, the Son and Spirit would ultimately be lacking in full deity. As Athanasius rightly declared, in that case we could not participate in salvation.

Theology for the Community of God, Stanley Grenz

Tags: stanley grenz, trinity
Posted in Other Posts | No Comments »

July 10th, 2011

Will the real Trinitarian please stand up?

First, Nick has clearly stepped off the deep end in regards to a biblical framework by declaring everyone who doesn’t believe the Trinity an atheist and a heretic, which of course got Tom Finland all fired up. Wow. Not only does that go against logic and Tradition, diminishes Christian unity, but so too is completely unbiblical, but then again, Nick has turned solely to the Church Councils for support. Of course, seemingly, only the church councils which he disagrees with. I was unaware that Nick had become his own Magisterium and Inquisition all in one. He wants to follow all the councils…. but I doubt he’ll follow all of the Council’s decrees. I mean, for instance, I wonder if he has Icons. Or limits the role of women to Deaconesses?

But, Kevin, on the other hand, God bless him, responds. He doesn’t go far enough, actually. Remember, the East and the West hold, at least in word-pictures and focus, a different Trinity. Nevertheless, Kevin raises excellent points. Which Trinity? Who’s the heretic/atheist?

My guess? It would be Nick.

Edwards’ Trinitarian Redemption (westernthm.wordpress.com)
A Rap on Trinitarianism (westernthm.wordpress.com)
The Concept of God as Trinity and a Response to Modalism (achorusofehoes.wordpress.com)

Tags: trinity
Posted in Godhead | 34 Comments »

May 25th, 2011

James B Torrance on the Trinity

The Bible doesn’t give a thorough doctrine of the Trinity but what it is absolutely clear about is that we have an invitation to worship God and be part of His mission on earth and this involves all three Persons of the Godhead. Because of what Jesus has done for us and because of the access that He has given us, we can, through the Spirit, participate in the Son’s communion with the Father and in the Son’s mission from the Father to the world.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0830818952/thechuofjesch-20/

It can now baffle me why some people think you need anyone else who is in Heaven. Tried that for years, and it didn’t work for me. God did, and does, and will.

Awesome Quote of the Morning – Trinity, Revelation, Mystery, Sola Scriptura (thechurchofjesuschrist.us)
Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity – by Scott Gunn (kiwianglo.wordpress.com)

Tags: Doctrine, holy trinity, James B Torrance, trinity
Posted in Other Posts | 1 Comment »

May 22nd, 2011

The Urantia Book and the Nature of Jesus

Cover of The Urantia Book

According to the Urantia Book, Jesus and the Spirit are one and the same.

In a recent discussion with some, errm, “scholars” of the FER (Fifth Epochal Revelation, or Uranta Book), they pointed out that Jesus was Spirit, and one of the minor Galactic Deities. This is because Jesus “lives in us”.

I did not even attempt to deal with the ridiculousness of the “minor galactic deity” bit. However, the Bible certain teaches that Jesus was a man, died, and was resurrected in Bodily form (he touched, was touched, was seen, spoke, ate, etc), so we say Jesus is still human, seated at the right hand of the father.

So, this occurs often, even “normal” Christians do not understand that Jesus has a body, and as such he can not live inside your body. That’s just logically and physically impossible. So the orthodox teaching is that the Spirit, a separate person of the Trinity is the one who is within us, and makes Christ known to us, and Christ brings us to the Father. This is found particularly in John 14 and 16.

Anyway, I asked the “Scholar” to prove from the Bible that Jesus and the Spirit were one, even after explaining to him the relevant verses in John, He STILL wouldnt believe me, and this was his response:

Briefly, The Holy Spirit (mentioned extensively throughout all of the Bible) is a Spirit of God with a feminine, or Motherly Nature. Jesus Christ stated that God the Paradise Universal Father is Spirit; and He is Fatherly Spirit. Jesus Christ is also He; as He Incarnated here as a male Son of God and Son of Man. Jesus is still 100% Spirit God and 100% Spirit Man. None of these three Spirit Personality Deities are mere physical human male or female bodies ! Our human destiny is also to be 100% Godly perfected and 100% Spirit (and male spirit nature) Son of God or 100% Spirit (and female spirit nature) Son of God on Paradise with these Deities. Both men and women here are classified as (potentially ascending) Sons of God; the Daughters of God are the many types of angels, super-angels, heavenly hosts, ministering Spirits of the Holy Infinite Spirit .

Here are some verses to reflect upon:

1. Look up scriptures that include these phrases

“the Spirit of the Lord”
“the Spirit of Jesus”
“the Spirit of Christ”
“the Spirit of Jesus Christ”, and
“the Spirit of [God's] Son”.

A few:

“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” (Gal.4:4-7)

“For I know that this shall turn to my salvation (blessings, deliverance, and provision) through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.” Philippians 1:19

(find others)

2. and some from my NOW (New Old Word) spiritual HighLights …

98. For it pleased THE FATHER that IN CHRIST JESUS ALL OF GOD’S FULLNESS IS! Colos 1:19

97. &100. I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE! (JESUS speaking) John 10:30

237. YOU are not only in the flesh, as THE SPIRIT OF GOD INDWELLS YOU !!
(HERE AND NOW and WITHIN YOU !!) Rom 8:9

241. GOD’S Glorious SPIRIT IN the INNER MAN strengthens us to have faith
such that JESUS CHRIST may DWELL IN our hearts; that we KNOW the transcendent eternal LOVE of JESUS CHRIST; and WE SHALL sometime be filled with all the fullness of GOD! Eph 3:16,17,19

376. (JESUS) THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH DWELLS WITH YOU AND SHALL BE IN YOU FOREVER!! (in addition to the Holy Spirit) John 14:16,17

380. (JESUS) YOU LIVE IN ME; LET ME LIVE IN YOU. John 15:4 ["ME" - Jesus Christ ! not the same as the Holy Spirit Who was and is always here with us !]

359. (JESUS) If a man loves Me, he will keep My Words; and My FATHER will
LOVE him, and WE WILL COME INTO HIM, and make OUR HOME WITH HIM !! John 14:23 (as Two Spirits in One and Three in One Spirits; Jesus still in a limited human body could not do that ! Infinite difference !)

381. (JESUS) YOU SHALL KNOW THAT I AM IN MY FATHER, AND YOU ARE IN ME, AND I AM IN YOU. (Thus, through JESUS, YOU ARE IN THE FATHER OF ALL; HE IS IN YOU !!) John 14:20

479. SEE! I stand at the door and knock; if ANY man hear My Voice and opens the door, I WILL COME IN TO HIM, AND WILL SUP WITH HIM, AND HE WITH ME.
Rev 3:20
93. …and he who receives Me (JESUS) receives HIM who sent Me! Mat 10:40

304. Your heart was sometimes dark, NOW it is full of Light of the Lord;
BEHAVE AS CHILDREN OF LIGHT!!! Because of this LIGHT WITHIN YOU, you should strive for goodness, righteousness and Truth. Eph. 5:8,9

469. (JESUS) I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, even to the ends of the earth!!!
Mat 28:20
471. REJOICE IN THE LORD ALWAYS …THE LORD IS AT HAND ! (HERE AND NOW!!)
Philip 4:4,5
483. CRY OUT AND SHOUT! GREAT IS THE HOLY ONE (JESUS)…AMONG US!!!
Isa 12:6
177. FEAR NOT: for I AM WITH YOU; I will…bring My sons from afar, and My
daughters from the ends of the earth; even EVERY ONE who is Called by My Name; for I have created
him for My Glory, I have formed him; yes, I have made him. Isa 43:5,6,7

379. (JESUS) I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD: HE WHO FOLLOWS ME shall not walk
in darkness, but SHALL HAVE THE LIGHT OF LIFE!!! John 8:12

409. (JESUS)…he who SEES ME SEES HIM who sent Me. I AM COME A LIGHT into the world. ( ! ! ! ) John 12:45,46

484. BEHOLD ( S E E ! ) YOUR GOD ! …FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND!
Isa 40:9 Rev 22:10

Now, anyone else see the problems here?

1. In context these can refer to “The Holy Spirit” (a distinct person of the Trinity to Jesus), the “nature and disposition of Jesus/The Father”, etc.

The rest do not show anything other than It is the “Spirit” that lives within us. None of these verses show that Jesus and the Spirit are one.

Ironically, the FER teaches that there is a Trinity; Father, Son, Spirit, but that the Spirit and Jesus are one.. which makes it not a trinity at all. Mental. Joel L Watts mental.

EDIT:

I also found this, from a previous email with “the scholar”, to give you some more background:

Geoff, Please peruse Jesus’ words in John 16. Jesus did not say “another”; in 16:7 Jesus says that He will return to the Father God; and that He will send the “He” — “the Comforter.” Who is that? Jesus explains in 16:13 that He is “The Spirit of Truth” and “He will guide you into All Truth” – into God the Universal Father. Note that The Spirit of Truth is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source (with the Son) of all life and all mind levels on earth; the Spirit of God is mentioned in Gen 1 – on. Technically, the Holy Spirit is She, God the Son is He and God the Father is He. The word for the Holy Spirit is feminine in the Bible.

Before I go more into the next part of your one paragraph, I should state that our Christ is an Eternal, Paradise-level Creator Son of God Who was always Coordinate Deity and One with God the Universal Father on infinite Paradise. “Let US “Elohim”(plural Deity)” make mankind in OUR own image. Our Creator Father-Son Christ came out from timeless and spaceless Eternal Paradise about 450 billion years ago and started creating our local universe which will have ten million human inhabited worlds when completed in this first Supreme-level age –aka the Grand Universe epoch – of maybe one trillion years total. God did not give our Master Jesus Christ full Deity Power and full Father-Son-Spirit Presence to all humans and beings until Jesus Christ Incarnated as Creator Son of God and Completed His Life here also as all Spirit-perfected Son of Man here on Earth, and all in/as One perfect Divine-Human Eternal Personality. (Our Creator Father Jesus Christ is infinitely far above being limited now to being in a gross 6ft 200lb physical body ! No beds and no toilets are needed on any of the higher Heavens; and certainly not on infinite, eternal Paradise ! How could Jesus instantly go into millions of stars (suns) and adjust its 35 million degree interior fusion process if He were still in a body of flesh ? How could his (as you allege) “two human ears” hear all the prayers of (roughly) seven billion/world X 10 million worlds = seven million billion or seven quadrillion or 7 X 10 to the 15th power different humans and beings, and instantly change each prayer/request/worship to the best instant Spirit forms to be shared with the Universal Father-Infinite I AM …IF Jesus Christ were just now using a limited human body ?? Read in the Bible where Jesus came back to earth in a higher Spirit-soul form to many humans after Jesus’ physical death by crucifixion for about 50 days before then making his Spirit Ascent back to the Universal Father on Paradise, receiving ALL the Power and Fullness of God to us in His/our local universe; and sending Himself (and God) flooding down upon ALL humans on earth as the One Holy Father-Son-Spirit of Truth to eternally Lead and Guide us here and forevermore into All Truth: GOD. Read where this briefly returning, resurrected (by Himself as He said !) Jesus Christ camke out of the tomb and said “Touch Me not” ( as He only was made to look as a physical human to not scare or confuse most humans) Later Jesus in this temporary Spirit-soul-body looking form (actually 7 soul forms, instantly changeable by Jesus) came right through a locked door made of “solid” wood ! (all matter here is actually mostly empty space on the sub-atomic level)

Tags: bible, Christ, God, holy spirit, jesus, son of God, trinity, Urantia book
Posted in Church History, Godhead | 28 Comments »

April 5th, 2011

Awesome Quote of the Morning – Trinity, Revelation, Mystery, Sola Scriptura

Ausschnitt aus dem Titelblatt der Lutherbibel ...

Image via Wikipedia

From here:

You blur the lines by talking about “THE CHURCH” in equal status with the Bible. Sola Scriptura is dead; contemporary discussions on the Trinity are evidence of that.

Rodney goes on, in this post here, to counter again the Irish ‘This Week, I’m a Reformed’ Anglican, when he writes,

T.C. Robinson’s post on the Trinity has stirred quite the conversation. I don’t mind the debate at all; it is just my hope that Christians who are Trinitarian, as I profess recognize a few things: 1) non-trinitarians ARE our sisters and brothers in the faith; they just have a different understanding of the relationships between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit 2), The doctrine of the Trinity is a teaching in development and is a product of interpretation passed down by tradition, and that is why the early Church mothers and father proclaimed it as a MYSTERY not an additional revelation.

Although he goes on to say something about the Economic Trinity (cough, cough, Marcellus of Ancyra had it right)…

Tags: Economy of God, sola scriptura, trinity
Posted in Godhead | 2 Comments »

April 2nd, 2011

The Trinity is Idle Speculation

Image via Wikipedia

Roger Olsen, as he has before and will continue to do, has caused Christians to wrestle with a few things. This time, it is the the Essentials of Christianity. I find it odd that so many would pontificate about the need for some doctrinal system formalized at the end the close of the pagan era. It’s almost as if theology simply stopped at that moment. For those who believe in progressive revelation, they deem this as the moment that theology must remain in. Who is to say that God is not moving the Church to a different understanding, a different narrative, to respond to the Father and the Son?

Personally, I’m with the good Doctor Kirk when he writes,

I’m ready to get back to discussing God in terms of how God has revealed Godself in the story itself rather than wrestling with the church’s philosophical reflections on that narrative.

Unfortunately, not everyone feels that way.

T.C. notes – and by the way, for my fellow seminarians, I would recommend his blog,

Perhaps along with Professor Olson, we need to rethink what we consider the “essentials of Christianity,” and not be so quick to say, “Here’s a long list of doctrines and anyone who doesn’t believe them isn’t a Christian.”

To me, having the Trinity as an ‘essential Christian doctrine’ is the same as having Justification of the Calvinist variety as the ‘essential Christian doctrine’ or having Young Earth Creationism as the’ essential Christian doctrine.’ What is essential in the New Testament is hardly what we have made essential.

But, then again, on a few of those comments, I have to wonder if their need is not instead preservation of the work of the Son and the Father in salvation and the Father and the Son by the Spirit in the life of the Church rather than some ancient doctrinal statement made in front of the Emperor, under duress.

I note that Brian LePort (please don’t think less of me for linking to his blog; I mean, it’s not like I read it) links to an article by Volf which expresses his focus on the unity of God. Personally, I’d go with Volf for the most part.

But, back to the title of the post…

God is recognized as ineffable,

We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple.^{(Lateran Council IV: DS 800.)}

Olsen, I think, agrees that God is ineffable.

So does an ancient Theologian.

And of course, while the New Testament may hold the seeds of the Trinitarian doctrine, why is what grew from it now considered an ‘essential Christian doctrine’ when many believe that God cannot be rightly described? To me, by requiring a certain formula to describe God is profaning the nature of God. We are making God too human when we even begin to try to place God within the concepts of human language – but to require a formula is to destroy the sanctity of God.

So, if God is ineffable, then why are we constantly speculating, theologizing or categorizing God? Wouldn’t that time be better spent doing something more profitable to the Kingdom of God until such a time as we can engage God without the barrier of human existence?

The Holy Trinity in the Qur’an (godomnipotent.wordpress.com)
Trinity as Perfect Community (achorusofehoes.wordpress.com)
Chapter One Trinity: Dogma and Mystery (appealoflove.wordpress.com)
Trinity 101 (catholicanalysis.blogspot.com)

Tags: Miroslav Volf, trinity
Posted in Godhead | 16 Comments »

March 13th, 2011

Who influenced Jesus about His mission on Earth?

Image via Wikipedia

A couple of weeks ago I referred to a belief that it was His mother Mary who influenced the Earthly mission of Jesus. Who did influence Jesus? Jesus Himself has the answer.

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does”. John 5:19 (NIV)

“For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:49-50 (NIV)

Jesus spoke to God the Father everyday. Everything Jesus did and said came from God the Father. Because Jesus is God. The Trinity were working perfectly together. As they are One. Beautiful!