Unsettled Christianity

One blog to rule them all, One blog to find them, One blog to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
June 21st, 2012

Wisdom of Solomon is Against Carrier’s Eschatological Isaiah 53

Before I was invested so heavily with Mark, I was a huge fan of the Wisdom of Solomon. Reading through Thom’s article, I noticed something that I wanted to pay more attention too:

We have no reason to believe that they read the Suffering Servant song as eschatological at all. The Suffering Servant doesn’t feature here or anywhere else in the Qumran corpus. Perhaps they saw themselves as a Suffering Servant, their own suffering cleansing them as in Wisdom of Solomon 2-3, where the righteous ones’ suffering and death is “like a sacrificial burnt offering” for their own individual sins. Or perhaps they read it historically as the suffering of Israel. Anything we posit will be merely speculative, since nowhere in the Qumran corpus do they discuss the Suffering Servant. I’ll repeat: nowhere.

via It Is Finished for Richard Carrier’s Dying Messiah: Part 2 | Religion at the Margins.

A couple of things. First, I don’t want to call Wisdom (of Solomon) a midrash on Isaiah, but it is more than intertextuality and may fall into the realm of rewritten Scripture. [1. Cheon, Samuel. Exodus Story in the Wisdom of Solomon: A Study in Biblical Interpretation. Sheffield Academic Press, 1997.]

Now, what does Wisdom have to do with Isaiah? The first part of Wisdom is rewriting the Servant’s Song in Isaiah 52-53 to once again represent Israel during an oppressive stage in their history. Israel is the righteous man. It is not about eschatological hopes but about vindication. Luke recognized these terms when he worked to expand Matthew’s Gospel by including several references to the book of Wisdom as a contextualizing force throughout Luke-Acts. There is no notion of atonement in Wisdom, except for individual purging, much as we see in the Psalms of Solomon, another pre-Jesus textual tradition that does not expect a dying and atoning messiah.

In Matthew 8.17, the one time a post-Jesus author could have really elaborated on the connection between Isaiah 52-53 and Jesus, the author chose not to and instead once again proof-texted his contextualization of the ministry of Jesus as one that brought to completion the Jewish Scriptures. This is really no different than what many do today with various leaders from Europe whom they claim to be the mythical anti-christ. Acts makes a connection with the Eunach, but this is after much theological reflection.  I have to laugh at the use the Old Testament or other writings to prove the historical Jesus – given that these things were used to contextual the memory of the Historical Jesus.

Now, about the idea of a dying and raising messiah… Nope. What about a heavenly messiah, the so-called mythical Jesus. Nope. One of the central issues with this is that Carrier and others seem to be missing one huge part when they argue for heavenly beings rather than early ones.

I find it rather odd that Carrier sees Isaiah 53 like contemporary evangelicals, but I digress.

I tend to agree with Casey regarding the ransom motif in Mark, and more, the idea that a ransom/sacrifice can be identified with a people, object or city is not uncommon and should be paid more attention too. Israel, however, is the righteous man of Wisdom and the Suffering Servant of Isaiah. It was only after a generation of reflection and an impetus of crisis that the original community began to explore the teachings of Jesus and the being of Jesus in a different light. There is a rather huge difference in the use of Scripture in Mark and Matthew, which should signal to us the leap forward in contextualizing Jesus that happened between the two authors.

Anyway… read Thom’s article.

June 21st, 2012

Thom Stark buries Richard Carrier – 11QMelchizedek (11Q13)

This second part of my response to Richard Carrier will deal essentially with the interpretation of three texts: Daniel 9:24-27, Isaiah 52:7-53:12, and 11QMelchizedek. I will spend the bulk of my time responding point by point to Carrier’s claims, before concluding with a fresh interpretation of 11QMelch, based on new research. I’ve changed my mind back and forth on various questions regarding 11QMelch, but never have I found Carrier’s claims to accord with the data we have. He constantly misreads the texts; he makes contradictory claims about the nature of pesher, as he thinks it suits his purposes, and ultimately fails on virtually every point. The one point he has made that forced me to look closer at the scroll is that it follows the same timeline as Daniel in terms of a ten jubilee cycle. I was of course, with all scholars, already aware of this, but his insistence on the central significance of this point drove me to closer examination of the scroll. Not surprisingly, as it turns out and as I will show, Carrier’s understanding of the timeline of events between Daniel 9 and 11QMelch is incorrect, but I owe to his insistence on this question the clarity I now have about what 11QMelch is saying about the last days.

http://religionatthemargins.com/2012/06/it-is-finished-for-richard-carriers-dying-messiah-part-2/

As always, Thom is well supported by scholarship – actual scholarship, like even from his own field. Give it a good read.

May 4th, 2012

Refutation – Thom Stark Style

Richard Carrier has confidently stated that in some of the comments on his blog he has “refuted” “most” of my critique of his claims about a pre-Christian Dying Messiah (he says so hereand here). I read his comments, and all I can say is, “refuted,” eh? Perhaps he just doesn’t know the meaning of the word. Allow me to demonstrate for Carrier’s sake what a refutation looks like.

via The Torturous Death of Richard Carrier’s Dying Messiah | Religion at the Margins.

It’s powerful. It’s in depth. It’s thorough. It’s Thom Stark.

April 25th, 2012

Thom Stark runs over Richard Carrier

I know, I know, but I like Thom. I do. Sure, we might disagree about a few things, or not, who knows, but I like the cut of his gib.

Anyway, he has taken on Richard Carrier’s, um, argument:

I’ll join in the fray, focusing on Carrier’s argument that some pre-Christian Jews held a belief in a dying Messiah. While this argument is not directly related to a mythicism argument, it is indirectly related in that, for Carrier, if it can be shown that some Jews held a belief in a dying Messiah prior to Christianity, then it cannot be argued that the idea of a dying Messiah could only have come about if one who was believed to have been the Messiah actually died in history (as with Jesus of Nazareth). Thus, the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth is not inconsistent with the Jesus Myth hypothesis. I’ll look at two major pieces of evidence Carrier provides for his thesis and show why they really come to naught, when examined properly.

What Thom does is actual scholarship. Good stuff. Give it a read.

April 14th, 2012

Insert Usual Joelian Ironic Title – Just consider looking into this post

Watch this:

Now… go here.

Profiling America is an “open-source” documentary. That means that every aspect of the project from fundraising, to pre-production, to production, to post-production, is a nationwide collaborative effort. Anyone can raise funds. Anyone can earn an Associate Producer credit by raising a minimum of one thousand dollars toward the $100,000 goal. Anyone and everyone can go towww.profilingamericamovie.com and contribute their own ideas about the film, from the content, the stories the film will tell, the experts to be interviewed, the subjects to be investigated, even the overall aesthetics of the film. Anyone can volunteer to help out during production. In post-production, however, there are limits to the collaboration. In order to have access to the footage and take part in post-production discussions, you have to have contributed at least $5 to the fundraiser. Profiling America is not “a film by Thom Stark.” It’s an open-source film by America, initiated by Thom Stark. Of course, the open-source metaphor can only extend so far. Thom will ultimately have the final say on what ideas can reasonably be incorporated if the film is going to be coherent, but all ideas are welcome and will be given full consideration. Anyone can contribute to the process.

Why an “open-source” film? The answer is simple. It’s a film that deals with deep-seated problems in our society, and ours is, or rather, has to be an open-source society if it’s going to be a society worth sustaining. So the nature of the film reflects the nature of the world we have to create.

INCENTIVE FOR STUDENT ORGANIZATIONS

If your student organization helps with fundraising for this project there are two incentives you can earn. (1) If you raise a minimum of $100, your student organization will be given a “Special Thanks” in the film’s credits. (2) If you raise a minimum of $5,000, your student organization will be listed at the start of the film as one of the production companies. I.e., Planetoid 562 Pictures, in association with [Your Student Organization], presents…

There are two different ways you can do this. Inquire at director@profilingamericamovie.com for details. Let’s work together on this!

SPECIAL ‘ASSOCIATE PRODUCER’ CREDIT

If you want to earn (not “buy”) an associate producer credit on the film, here’s what you have to do. Personally raise $1000 worth of pledges from your network of friends, family and associates. It will work on the honor system. To secure the credit, get your network to pledge at least $1000 worth of funds, then send an email to director@profilingamericamovie.com and include a list of the names of the backers whose pledges you personally have solicited. You don’t have to provide their full names. Just look at the list of backers on the link above, and see how they’ve identified themselves on Kickstarter. Good luck, and thanks for your support!

REMINDER

Make your pledge now and you won’t be charged until the fundraiser is finished, at 11:59PM CST on Monday the 21st of May. Remember that with Kickstarter, if we don’t reach the fundraising goal, we get nothing. It’s an all-or-nothing system. That means, if we get all the way to $99,999 dollars, but fall just a dollar short at the deadline, we won’t see a cent. So please keep that in mind as you are pledging and spreading the word. Thanks so much!

November 27th, 2011

Mike Gantt – Barnes and Noble tells me what the Bible is

No, by “All Scripture” I mean what they give you if you walk into Barnes and Noble and tell them you want to buy a Bible. (from here)

Oh this is a hoot….

 

November 25th, 2011

Thom Stark responds to Mike Gantt


Mike Gantt has written what he seems to think is a scathing review of my book. (It is a review in twelve parts, and begins here.) He has stated on numerous occasions that I won’t be “very pleased” with what he has to say. In response, I’ll start by stating up front that it’s not that I’m not pleased with the criticisms he makes of my book because they’re good criticisms. I’m not pleased with them because they were a complete waste of my time, many of them bordering on unintelligible. His review is long; I’ll give him that. But part of that is due to the repetition of assertions that appeal only to people who already share his views, and that will otherwise persuade no one else. In reality, many of Gantt’s criticisms don’t even apply to my book. He has beaten a number of straw men; he has concocted claims I am supposed to have made; he has displayed a predilection for guessing at my unspoken motives, and in every case, he has misdiagnosed me. It’s really a sad review. So why am I responding? Honestly, because I’m bored, and because I’m procrastinating on projects I ought rather to be doing. With that said, I’ll get to the blah blah blah, whatever.

via The Human Faces of God.

Why Thom, why?

Maybe Thom was bored?

It is a good book, by the way… and one you should buy.

April 26th, 2011

Thom’s Stark Review of Paul Copan’s “Is God a Moral Monster?”

(I’m in there somewhere, seriously, like my name is mentioned!)

This is my review of Paul Copan’s Is God a Moral Monster? Making Sense of the Old Testament God (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2011). This review should be read as a supplement to Copan’s book. You may purchase Copan’s book here. This review may be freely distributed, reposted on your personal blogs and websites, printed off, emailed to friends and enemies, or completely ignored. If you do post it online or quote from it, please link back here or cite the source.

Download the Review: Is God a Moral Compromiser? Right-click and ‘save as’ on the link to download the review.

via Is God a Moral Compromiser? A Critical Review of Paul Copan’s “Is God a Moral Monster?” | Religion at the Margins.

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April 5th, 2011

On Young Earth Creationists as Theological Liberals

William Blake's etching/watercolour "Anci...

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Thom Stark has a pretty good piece up, which in part reads,

From the vantage point of my tradition, I am a conservative, and they are the liberals. They are the ones who liberally filter the Bible through their own theological constructions. On the other hand, I and those within my tradition (insomuch as we live up to our ideals) are the conservatives. We wish to conserve the Bible’s historical-grammatical meaning, to conserve the original voices of the Bible’s authors, and allow them to speak to us without imposing our own assumptions and theological constructs upon them, which would be refusing to let them speak.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying in my discussions with Young Earth Creationists and the occasional Finnish ‘This Week I am Reformed‘ Lutheran – that sometimes what appears to be conservative is actually liberal and the reverse is equally true. If we are supposedly about ad fontes! then why aren’t we really concerned with what the biblical text said and instead focused on what it says to us?

Thom goes on to note,

But what they mean is that they are invested in conserving the Bible as interpreted through the creeds that are accepted within their brand of orthodoxy, and I am a liberal because I have no investment whatsoever in their creeds.

Well, yeah. Regarding YEC’ers, or KJV’ers, or any ‘ers, this can be read the same thing, except replace ‘creeds’ with ‘their interpretations.’

For me, I believe the Holy Text to be the divinely inspired and profitable for many things, but not as a prop to our recent insistences or interpretations. Further, just because the bible says some now, it doesn’t mean that it has always said the same thing. You realize, of course, that this is why serious studies are needed – and don’t laugh too much, Jim, – but studies in the original language, culture and context as much as humanly possible.

If you insist upon your interpretation without first consulting the (con)Text, then you are a theological liberal. That’s fine, but at least admit it. But as for me and my house of biblical studies, we will return to the sources. From there, we will move forward.

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February 17th, 2011

The Human Faces of God – Stark answers Loftus

Please note, that after I am finished with this giveaway (Feb 25th), I will be giving away Thom’s book (great guy, met him in Atlanta this year at SBL), at which time, I will finish my review.

Anyway, Thom (great guy, met him in Atlanta at SBL) takes on Loftus (never met him, the Joker to my Superman):

First, I’d like to thank John Loftus for taking the time to write such a strong review (click here to read it), and for caring enough about the material to make the criticisms he’s made. Thanks, John.

But I’d like to respond to his criticisms, because I think many of them reflect a misunderstanding of my language or, in some cases potentially, a misrepresentation of my arguments. The easiest way for me to respond is piecemeal, so I’ll do it that way.

Because John Loftus shares a name with one of the Gospel writers, I’ll refer to him by his surname, rather than his Christian name. [insert laughter here]

Loftus said: Chapter eight argues that Jesus was wrong about the end of the world. It did not take place as he predicted. In this chapter Stark says of my chapter on this topic in “The Christian Delusion” that “the claims made [by] Loftus cannot be ignored by Christians.’” I liked that.

I just want to clarify that although I certainly do think every Christian should read Loftus’s chapter on Jesus’ apocalyptic expectations, that does not mean I endorse his overall conclusion. Loftus quotes my footnote from p. 168. But on p. 207, I ask whether Loftus is correct that, in his words, “at best Jesus was a failed apocalyptic prophet.” On that page, I do not offer an answer but I do offer my response in the final (tenth) chapter of my book, where I state clearly that I believe Jesus, while indeed a failed apocalyptic prophet, was much more than that, and that all of his teachings should not be dismissed just because some missed the mark. I am very critical of Jesus’ apocalypticism in that chapter, but I also highlight the aspects of his apocalypticism that are beneficial, in my estimation. I also point out that not all of Jesus’s teachings can be traced to apocalyptic roots, and that other facets of his teaching are valuable. So, while I agree with many of John’s conclusions about Jesus’ apocalyptic expectations and failed predictions, I disagree with John that Jesus was nothing more than a failed apocalyptic prophet and should be totally disregarded.

Read the rest here:

The Human Faces of God.

Let me state that while not every Christian will like Thom’s book, I do believe that it should be read and wrestled with. Think of him as Amos – coming from the outside (or inside, actually) to make you uncomfortable. Can you challenge his challenges to you?

November 10th, 2010

Reflections on Thom Stark’s The Human Faces of God – Part 2

Click to Order

For the start of the series, start here.

He’s right. When inerrancy is taken to its logical level  there is a lack of pure claimants; however, Stark is wrong in assuming that inerrancy is acted out only by biblical literalists (Although he attempts to correct this view, too late in my opinion, on page 40. Of course, since most inerrantists rely on the Chicago Statement which stresses literalism, he has evidence for his assumption.) Today, modern inerrancy is taking on the notion that the bible was delivered correctly, not that everything in it is correct. For example, in discussing inerrancy with others, I use the example of Job’s friends. My friends counter that not everything in the bible is correct, good and true, but it was delivered inerrantly. I think that Stark falls into the same trap with demanding that inerrantists must be biblical literalists, although he does note that new get-arounds are developed from among the community. What inerrantists falter at, he is correct,  is that they have created within the canon a smaller canon, and even in that a smaller one than that! Christians no longer listen to the laws proscribed by Leviticus or some of the uglier points in the Prophets. Could I entice you to beg God to destroy the infants of your enemies as the Psalmist did in 137? On the surface, and at the climax of the doctrine, inerrancy leaves you answering only yes. And this is where inspirationists divide from inerrantists, even if they do not know it yet. And here again, he is correct that to counter the growing suspicion that inerrancy is not of the historical faith, and that it creates more problems than it solves, many inerrantists attempt to use other devices to solve their self-created riddles. If, as Stark notes, the same method of producing inerrancy (see his discussion on p18) was used by the Church Fathers, I would imagine that many of them could not have seen Christ so poignantly in the Hebrew Scripture. Inerrancy is not interpretation, but the lack thereof.

There is much to say about interpretation and those who practice the craft, such as biblical mention doesn’t mean divide allowance, but I suspect that this conversation is for another post.

I suspect that if inerrantists who were pastors would remove themselves from the debate, and step back to look at their own sermons, they would fully understand what Stark covers in his discussion on Ancient Jewish Hermeneutics, finding themselves well in line with the interpretative tradition. Interpretation generally didn’t involve what ‘really happened’ but examined what was happening in the now by what happened then. For an example, the Gospel of Matthew. By taking the eleventh chapter of Hosea and comparing it to the life of the young Holy Family, he could see the connection of the two. It was not that Hosea was speaking about Christ or that the Evangelist was examining the story of Exodus through Hosea’s interpretation, but that he saw in Christ and the flight to and from Egypt the events of the now mirrored in the words of the ancient prophet. Stark is right in pointing out that,

Interpretation was not a careful process of historical-grammatical exegesis, but an inspired identification of a “hidden meaning” in the text with a present-day reality or concern. (p20)

Further, I believe that he does well to show Daniel’s less than literal reinterpretation of Jeremiah’s 70-year prophecy wouldn’t make it if examined under the light of the Chicago statement. As I stated before, neither would Matthew’s (a particular prophecy is pointed out by Stark on p28-29), the author of Hebrews, Paul (as the author points on on p30-31) or many of the early Church Fathers’. As he moves into extra-canonical sources, namely the Qumran sect(s), we see the act of subjective interpretation developing full steam, with all too familiar associations with our modern sects. Of course, much to the disconcerting effects of inerrantists, Stark goes and ruins his section here with pointing out the very real fact that the Qumran sect(s) and the New Testament writers have a similar interpretative style (p26-27). While he is correct, it is still going to be disconcerting for those who believe that the New Testament was written in a vacuum.

Moving into the Patristic writers, Stark shows that he is able to confront with mainstream church history the doctrine of inerrancy. While I would caution that his reading of Marcion is too simplistic, I believe that he handles Origen and Augustine and their view of literalism well. In doing so, the author shows that the early Church wrestled with Scripture, and in the end, authoritative didn’t always mean inerrant. I do think that the lines of inerrancy and literalism are mangled in their mingling, but not necessary by Stark are others, but by such groups as the signers of the Chicago Statement; Stark simply resolves to answer them on their terms.

After discussing the ‘evidence’ of the Text and Patristic authors, Stark moves on to modern fundamentalists. I hate to use that word in a disparaging sense because I know a few that I couldn’t disparage, which is I why I try to separate the belligerent from the non-belligerent with the word extreme. I note that the author doesn’t fully disparage the idea that Scripture interprets Scripture but roundly takes to task those who use this method while attempting to hold to a historical-grammatical approach. Further, he notes fully the corner which those who are attempting to profess to only one right way of interpretation which they feel must necessary beget inerrancy but aren’t afraid of using others in a pinch are pushed into. Inerrancy is a redaction of the divine inspiration of Scripture, and thus a human face of God, as Stark might would put it.

Regarding his interpretation of 1st Timothy 2.12-14, I do believe that in attempting to showcase the problem here of inerrancy, he inadvertently dismisses the culture context of the passage and what the author may have been saying, which would still upset inerrantists.  It seems that he is almost grinding an ax with Mark Driscoll.

For me, my faith is Christ and Scripture is more secure of these facts, not less. The fact is, I try to use Scripture as it said of itself to be used, as the inspired instrument for the person of God (2nd Timothy 3.16). This is a great book, by the way, whether I agree or disagree with some of the points.