Unsettled Christianity

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October 3rd, 2011

Is C. Peter Wagner lying or backtracking?

Gustave Doré, Depiction of Satan, the antagoni...

Image via Wikipedia

Okay, so you know how when cameras get turned on, people tend to clam up if they have been saying stupid stuff? Well, Wagner and the other Dominionists would have us believe that they have no real stake in this election, and wouldn’t dare seek to take over the Government. That, of course, has never been their plan. I mean, we’ve just misunderstood them, that’s all or maybe we are in a conspiracy against them! Except…. the internet has a long memory.

From a letter he wrote in 2007:

Lance’s trademark teaching relates to what he calls the seven “mind molders” or the “seven mountains.” These have now become a permanent fixture in my personal teaching on taking dominion, and I have referenced Wallnau in The Church in the Workplace as well as in my forthcoming book Dominion! In my view it is not possible to get an operational handle on how to initiate corporate action toward social transformation without taking into account the seven mountains or what I like to call “molders of culture.” The seven are religion, family, business, arts & entertainment, government, education, and media.

…

Our theological bedrock is what has been known as Dominion Theology. This means that our divine mandate is to do whatever is necessary, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to retake the dominion of God’s creation which Adam forfeited to Satan in the Garden of Eden. It is nothing less than seeing God’s kingdom coming and His will being done here on earth as it is in heaven. This includes the need to govern apolitically, as well as to embrace spiritual warfare techniques that neutralize the control of our adversary within the functional and territorial spheres of authority to which we have been assigned. To do this, we know that we must be in communion, we must receive revelation, and we must apostolically and prophetically proclaim that revelation.

Compare that to recent statements:

“In terms of taking dominion, we don’t — we wouldn’t want to – we use the word dominion, but we wouldn’t want to say that we have dominion as if we’re the owners or we’re the rulers of, let’s say, the arts and entertainment mountain. What we strive to do and our goal is to have people in the arts and entertainment mountain who are committed to the kingdom of God so therefore, we use the adjective there — kingdom-minded believers — and our goal is to try to have as many kingdom-minded believers in positions of influence in the arts and entertainment mountain as possible. And the reason for that is, to help bring the blessings of heaven to all those in the arts and entertainment mountain.”

…

“We believe in working with any – with whatever political system there is. In America, it’s democracy and working with the administrative, judicial and legislative branches of the government, the way they are but to have as many kingdom-minded people in influence in each one of these branches of government as possible so that the blessings of the kingdom will come.”

Now, it seems to me – and correct me if I am wrong – but there is a huge difference between ‘influence’ and “do whatever is necessary.” Seems to me that Wagner is either lying or that he is disorderly retreating…

Peter Wagner isn’t a “Dominionist” either (gentlewisdom.org.uk)
Christian Right Fuses with Apostolic Dominionism ” Discerning the World (yumaprogressive.wordpress.com)
A Christian Plot for Domination? (jhaines6.wordpress.com)
Dominion Theology, Christian Reconstructionism, and the New Apostolic Reformation (chasdarwin.wordpress.com)

Tags: C. Peter Wagner, Dominionism, New Apostolic Reformation
Posted in Controversial | 7 Comments »

September 13th, 2011

Even Al Jazeera knows about C. Peter Wagner

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I would like to dedicate this post to my friend, Peter, across the pond, in future America East:

With Representative Michele Bachmann’s victory in the Ames, Iowa straw poll, and Texas Governor Rick Perry’s triumphal entrance into the GOP presidential primary, there’s been a sudden spike of attention drawn to the extremist religious beliefs both candidates have been associated with – up to and including their belief in Christian dominionism. (In the Texas Observer, the New Yorker, and the Daily Beast, for example.) The responses of denial from both the religious right itself and from the centrist Beltway press have been so incongruous as to be laughable – if only the subject matter weren’t so deadly serious. Those responses need to be answered, but more importantly, we need to have the serious discussion they want to prevent.

For example, in an August 18 post, originally entitled, “Beware False Prophets who Fear Evangelicals”, Washington Post religion blogger Lisa Miller cited the three stories I just mentioned, and admitted, “The stories raise real concerns about the world views of two prospective Republican nominees”, then immediately reversed direction: “But their echo-chamber effect reignites old anxieties among liberals about evangelical Christians. Some on the left seem suspicious that a firm belief in Jesus equals a desire to take over the world.” Of course, she cited no examples to bolster this narrative-flipping claim. More importantly, she wrote not one more word about the real concerns she had just admitted.

Exposing religious fundamentalism in the US – Opinion – Al Jazeera English.

As Peter knows, he is welcome to post opposing viewpoints here, but the article is a good one and helps to further the conversation. He can’t defeat it, but he’ll try

Tags: Al Jazeera English, C. Peter Wagner, Dominionism, Michele Bachmann, rick perry
Posted in Controversial | 2 Comments »

August 28th, 2011

Yes, C. Peter Wagner is a Dominionist and A Reconstructionist

I generally like Peter Kirk, but his stance in defending Wagner (a link to all my stories on Wagner) and the Bunch and trying to deflect the charge of dominionism from them is wrong. First, Wagner has come out now, now that their is significant media attention, to declare that he isn’t like those dominionists. The problem is, is that the internet has a long memory and Peter’s words are well recorded. He says that he doesn’t believe in a theocracy, but in other places, he promotes a theonomy. He loves the Seven Mountain Mandate which is built upon Christian Reconstructionist principles. He no longer believes in the Gospel by discipleship, but instead, believes in forced social transformation of entire social groups and maintains that that is what is meant by the Great Commission:

Formerly, I thought my task was to go to as many nations of the world as possible and save as many souls as possible and plant as many churches as possible. Now I take the Great Commission more literally when it tells us not to make as many individual disciples as we can but to disciple whole social groups—such as entire nations. This is kingdom theology.

From C. Peter Wagner‘s book:

“Acts 3:21 talks of Jesus being in heaven “until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.” Restoration also means “transformation,” and this dates back to the beginning, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. Even though Jesus came and changed history. He is waiting for us to do our part in bringing restoration to pass in real life. Meanwhile, He is reigning through us until “He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet” (I Corinthians 15:24-25).

“It is our task to become spiritual and social activists until Satan’s dominion is ended” (ht)

And, and why seven?

The number 7 is a boiled-down version of the original 17 spheres that were delineated in “worldview” documents prepared by the Coalition on Revival in the 1980s, when COR served as a “melting pot for Charismatic Dominionists and Reconstructionists.” These worldview documents, described in detail in Al Dager’s book Vengeance Is Ours (Sword, 1990), contained theological and political positions that were “mandatory for all Christians to implement . . . in society.”

For more things associated with Wagner (say, like a theological test), see here, here, and here.

So, which Wagner are we supposed to be believe? The one who wants media control or the one who shrinks from media attention?

Tags: C. Peter Wagner, Christian Reconstructionism, Dominionism, New Apostolic Reformation
Posted in Controversial | 88 Comments »

August 12th, 2011

The Apostles are going to be very happy tomorrow

It is expected that Governor Rick Perry is going to announce, officially, that he is entering the race for the White House in 2012. He is supported, and from the looks of The Response, supports, the ‘apostles’ of the New Apostolic Reformation, a heretical organization connected to hate groups and theologically apostate individuals.

On this day, the Lord’s messengers arrived in the form of two Texas pastors, Tom Schlueter of Arlington and Bob Long of San Marcos, who called on Perry in the governor’s office inside the state Capitol. Schlueter and Long both oversee small congregations, but they are more than just pastors. They consider themselves modern-day apostles and prophets, blessed with the same gifts as Old Testament prophets or New Testament apostles.

The pastors told Perry of God’s grand plan for Texas. A chain of powerful prophecies had proclaimed that Texas was “The Prophet State,” anointed by God to lead the United States into revival and Godly government. And the governor would have a special role.

The day before the meeting, Schlueter had received a prophetic message from Chuck Pierce, an influential prophet from Denton, Texas. God had apparently commanded Schlueter—through Pierce—to “pray by lifting the hand of the one I show you that is in the place of civil rule.”

Gov. Perry, it seemed. (here)

Recently, Rachel Maddow detailed the lack of, um, detail, to this figure in American politics. These are some of Perry’s friends at their finest:

C. PETER-WAGNER, ONE-TIME “THE RESPONSE” ENDORSER: Japan, as a nation, is one of the nations of the world which has consciously, openly invited national demonization. The sun goddess visits him in person and has sexual intercourse with the emperor.

BRYAN FISCHER, AMERICAN FAMILY ASSOCIATION: Permits, in my judgment, should not be granted to build even one more mosque in the United States of America, not one.

MIKE BICKLE, “THE RESPONSE” ENDORSER: The harlot of Babylon is preparing the nations to receive the antichrist. The harlot of Babylon will be a religion of affirmation, toleration, no absolutes, a counterfeit justice movement.

WAGNER: So the emperor becomes one flesh with the sun goddess, and that’s an invitation for the sun goddess to continue to demonize the um, the whole nation. Since the night that that ended the present emperor slept with the sun goddess, the stock market in Japan has gone down, never come up since.

BICKLE: I believe that one of the main pastors as a forerunner to the harlot movement, it’s not the harlot movement yet, is Oprah. She is winsome, she is kind, she is reasonable, she is utterly deceived – utterly deceived. A classy woman, a cool woman, a charming woman, but has a spirit of deception, and she’s one of the clear pastors, forerunners, to the harlot movement.

JOHN HAGEE, “THE RESPONSE” ENDORSER: God sent a hunter. A hunter is someone who comes with a gun, and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel.

FISCHER: Hitler discovered he could not get straight soldiers to be savage and brutal and vicious enough to carry out his orders but that homosexual soldiers basically had no limits to the savagery and brutality they will willing to inflict on whoever Hitler sent them after. So he surrounded himself, virtually all the storm troopers, the brown shirts, were male homosexuals.

JOHN BENEFIEL, “THE RESPONSE” ENDORSER: You know, there’s a statue in New York harbor called the Statue of Liberty. You know where we got it from? French Freemasons. Listen folks, that is an idol, a demonic idol right there in the middle of New York harbor.

FISCHER: Counterfeit religions, alternative religions to Christianity have no First Amendment right to the free exercise of religion.

CINDY JACOBS, “THE RESPONSE” ENDORSER: What happens when a nation makes a decision that is against God’s principles? Well, often what happens is that nature itself will begin to talk to us. For instance, violent storms, flooding.

HAGEE: I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God and they are – uh, were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally, that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that Katrina came.

JACOBS: The blackbirds fell to the ground in Beebe, Arkansas; well, the governor of Arkansas’ name is Beebe, and also, there was something put out of Arkansas called Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell by a former governor, this was proposed by Bill Clinton. And so, could there be a connection? It could be, because we have said it’s OK for people who commit these kinds of acts to be recognized, you know, in our military for the first time in our history. There is a potential that there is something that actually happened in the land where 100,000 drum fish died and also where these birds just fell out of the air.

It will be interesting to note what role dominionism plays in this election – and I suspect, what we saw in 2008 with all the ‘prophets’ and their ‘prophecies’ about Sarah Palin (which didn’t come true) will look like child’s play.

Onward Christian Governor (duanegraham.wordpress.com)
Herescope: IHOP Enters Dominion/Christian Right Politics (returnofbenjamin.wordpress.com)
Rick Perry and the New Apostolic Reformation Movement (iflizwerequeen.com)

Tags: bryan fischer, C. Peter Wagner, chuck pierce, domionism, New Apostolic Reformation, rick perry
Posted in Controversial, Religion and Politics | 1 Comment »

July 30th, 2011

Picking up on the New Apostolic Reformation

First, read this nice little essay on the New Apostolic Reformation, led by C. Peter Wagner. Personally, this is nothing that hasn’t been said before, but it is getting traction:

“Prior to 9/11, the Taliban government in Afghanistan did not register very much on American radar screens, with one notable exception: when it blew up two colossal images of the Buddha in Bamiyan province in early 2001. But destruction of treasured artifacts isn’t just limited to the Taliban. There’s a right-wing politico-religious presence centred in the US, but with a global reach, engaging in similar practises, destroying religious and cultural artifacts as a key aspect of its ideology of “strategic level spiritual warfare” (SLSW). Until recently a fringe evangelical movement, warned against as deviant, “spiritual warfare” is rapidly positioning itself within America’s mainstream political right. It’s well past time for political journalists to start covering what this movement is up to.” (From Al-Jazeera)

Jason is not being an alarmist in my opinion, but has some interesting thoughts.

Yes, they are real. yes, they are dangerous. Yes, some of their actions are essentially ‘magical.’

Will Rick Perry Ride The New Apostolic Reformation To The White House? (crooksandliars.com)
New Apostolic Reformation and IHOP Summary (returnofbenjamin.wordpress.com)
Rick Perry’s Christianist Army (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com)

Tags: C. Peter Wagner, New Apostolic Reformation, rick perry
Posted in Controversial, Religion and Politics | 4 Comments »

December 10th, 2009

Rick Warren, finally, Addresses Ugandan Kill the Gay Bill

Okay, so he is now sending encyclicals… (Here for the background)

Read the rest of this entry »

Tags: anti-gay bill, C. Peter Wagner, Rick Warren, uganda
Posted in Religion and Politics | 21 Comments »

December 7th, 2009

Warren’s P.E.A.C.E. Plan and Wagner’s Dominionism

This is sort of an answer to someone about Rick Warren’s involvement with Dominionism which is currently being led by C. Peter Wagner:

C. Peter Wagner yet again – Bruce Wilson finds an interesting quote from Wagner’s 2008 book Dominion! How Kingdom Action Can Change the World, in which he discusses Rick Warren’s “P.E.A.C.E.” Plan, which seeks to improve conditions in Africa (p. 174):

I think the P.E.A.C.E. plan fits most comfortably into Phase One, the “social action” phase of strategies for obeying God’s cultural mandate. The Phase Two emphases on strategic-level spiritual warfare and associated activities have not been placed front and center. And crucial to Phase Three, as I am defining it, are such things as apostolic/prophetic government of the Church, the Church (including apostles) in the workplace, the great transfer of wealth, dominion theology and the 7-M mandate.

via Warren’s P.E.A.C.E. Plan and Wagner’s Dominionism « Bartholomew’s Notes on Religion.

How odd that the leading voice of Dominionism, C. Peter Wagner, and the leading Evangelical voice, Rick Warren, are connected? What? Know ye not that Wagner was Warren’s doctrinal adviser?

Tags: C. Peter Wagner, Dominionism, Joel's Army, peace plan, Rick Warren, seven mountains
Posted in Other Posts | 7 Comments »

October 27th, 2009

C. Peter Wagner: Making his case for Dominionism

I find that Dominionism is an absolute evil -

Read the rest of this entry »

Tags: C. Peter Wagner, Dominionism, Joel's Army, kingdom theology, New Apostolic Reformation
Posted in Uncategorized | 2 Comments »

April 10th, 2009

J. Lee Grady – Stop listening to 'Super Apostles' and the New Mystics

Finally, it is coming to a head at the NAR. J. Lee Grady is now stating in no uncertain terms not to listen to the likes of Rick Joyner.

Something amazing happened to me last week during a ministry trip to Texas and O klahoma . God sent three unexpected visitors over the course of four days to confirm something He is doing in the church today.

Last Thursday when I was speaking at Christ for the Nations Institute in Dallas, my friend Sujo John called to say he wanted to drop by the campus and attend the conference with me. Sujo is a full-time evangelist who is originally from India. He surrendered to the ministry on Sept. 11, 2001, when he was buried under the rubble of the World Trade Center.

In this turbulent season when our movement is being shaken, refined and redefined, we must return to the simplicity of our mission to reach the lost all around us.”

On that horrific day as Sujo lay under the concrete and twisted metal, he wondered if he would live until nightfall. But that did not stop him from praying with about 20 people who were trapped with him. They all died before Sujo was rescued, but they stepped into eternity with faith in Christ as their Savior because Sujo led them in a sinner’s prayer. (Not to get into a theological debate here, but show me where the sinner’s prayer is?)

Read the rest of this entry »

Tags: C. Peter Wagner, Dominionism, God, J. Lee Grady, New Apostolic Reformation, religion, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley
Posted in Controversial, Other Posts | 2 Comments »

April 8th, 2009

The Angels of the New Apostolic Reformation

With many thanks to the folks here , here is a list of the very growing ‘angels’ that are speaking through the mouths of the likes of Bob Jones, Todd Bentley, and the entire Elijah List.

Bob Jones doppelganger angel – looks just like him [see here]

Bobby Conner doppelganger angels [plural] - lots of ‘mini me’ angels flying around [see here]

Breakthrough Revival Angel – allegedly worked previously with Benson Idohosa. Now as seen/associated with Bob Jones [see here], Randy ReMain here, Shawn Bolz [see here], Charles and Anne Stock, Larry Randolph, James Goll, Georgian and Winnie Banov and Sean Feucht [see here]

Brent - as claimed by Todd Bentley

Speaking of Bentley, here he is proclaiming a blessing and a breakthrough to heal marriages and families

Read the rest of this entry »

Tags: angels, Bob Jones, C. Peter Wagner, Dominionism, emma, God, IHOP, international coalition of apostles, James Goll, Joel's Army, Kim Clement, New Apostolic Reformation, religion, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley
Posted in Controversial, Other Posts | 4 Comments »

April 2nd, 2009

Fighting Demons, Raising the Dead, Taking Over the World – What is happening to Christianity?

What is happening to Christianity?

In 1996 a team from Ted Haggard’s New Life Church flew to Mali and began furtively ano inting en tire towns with cooking oil.

The strangeness of it gripped Dutch missionary René Holvast, who later wrote: “…[I]t was confusing and produced a growing uneasiness. It did not seem to fit our current Evangelical theological and anthropological textbooks.”

The team from Haggard’s church was a forerunner in a missionary wave that, since the early 1990s, has washed over the world, bringing what Holvast calls a ‘new paradigm.’

René Holvast has theological training, but his perplexed reaction was similar to that of Alix Spiegel, a radio journalist who went to Ted Haggard’s New Life Church in 1997 to do a story for This American Life. Spiegel encountered something so alluring, even overwhelming, that the secular, urban Jew was almost pulled in. (After several days at Ted Haggard’s church, Spiegel called This American Life‘s Ira Glass who—as if he were a deprogrammer weaning her from a cult—had to convince Alix Spiegel that she really belonged back in her secular realm of origin, Chicago.)

From its early days, New Life Church’s members worked to map out all the territorial demon spirits inhabiting Colorado Springs. At some point in the process they fed the mapping information into a computer database. Methodically—street by street, block by block, they used prayer-warfare to expel the demons from their city. And, they maintained a 24-7 prayer shield over Colorado Springs to prevent demon re-infestations. As with inner-city cockroaches, the price of demon-free living was constant vigilance.