John Eckhardt tells you to flee sound doctrine and surrender to the False Prophet

The kind folks at the Elijah list as ‘sent’ me another ‘prophet’ to ‘review’, and I thought that you might want to know what we found. He has produced 60 trends that will be seen as the ‘Apostles and Prophets’ take over. Note, biblically speaking, while their may be prophecies of some caliber, the idea of Apostles and Prophets existing today is rather unbiblical. The title ‘Apostle’ was used of those that were sent by God expressly, and generally fell to the 12, plus Paul.

The Church has a foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, not a capstone. It is clear from Scripture that the Apostles was a time based office.

John, a self-declared prophet and apostle is a part on C. Peter Wagner’s team.

He has authored more than 35 books, many having been translated into several languages. He is also founder of the Apostolic Institute of Ministry (AIM), and is part of the faculty of the Wagner Leadership Institute (WLI) and a member of the Board of Directors for the International Coalition of Apostles (ICA), both under the leadership of Dr. C. Peter Wagner. He also holds a Doctor of Ministry Degree.


It is imperative that apostles and prophets come into their appointed positions of leadership in the Church. These are governmental gifts that have tremendous authority to execute the plans and purposes of God. In order to do this they must be identified and released.

When apostles and prophets come into their place, the Church will experience great blessing. Individuals must begin to walk in these callings with confidence and boldness. They need to know the functions of their offices in order to execute them faithfully. Clarity and understanding of these gifts and callings will help them to walk in them fully. This includes planting, activating, imparting, and demonstrating the Kingdom of God.

These gifts need to be confirmed and strengthened. The Church will advance and experience great breakthroughs as a result of these gifts coming forth. The saints will experience a new level of perfecting, maturity and release. Fear, ignorance and unbelief will hinder these gifts from coming forth fully. Overcome fear with courage and boldness, overcome ignorance with knowledge and revelation, and overcome unbelief with faith. Apostolic alignment is important in this hour. We must align ourselves with the apostolic and prophetic movement.

The following are 60 trends that I see emerging in the Church with the full restoration of apostles and prophets.

I will not review all 60 (maybe later, or perhaps others could), but here are some of the ones that I found down right heretical, silly, or perverse.

1. A greater emphasis of the importance of signs, wonders, and miracles (especially deliverance). This will prevent the Church from depending too much on rational, intellectual ways of approaching ministry (see 2 Corinthians 12; Matthew 10). Greater demonstrations of the power of God (see 1 Corinthians 2:4).

35. Pulling down of strongholds and ideologies, including humanism, that have kept people from receiving the truth (see 2 Corinthians 10:4).

38. Greater release of the prophetic, including personal prophecy, corporate prophecy, prophetic teams and companies, prophets, prophetic worship, arts, dance, banners, and prophetic teaching and preaching. Apostles will encourage the prophetic in local churches and regions (see 1 Corinthians 14).

52. Increase of knowledge and breaking of spiritual ignorance and darkness, including superstition and idolatry (see Daniel 12:4)

58. Greater release of apostles and prophets, and more ministers step into these callings, being inspired to move into these gifts because of others who have preceded them. The fear and unbelief that have prevented many from walking in these callings will be overcome. The restoration of these gifts means that an abundance of these gifts will be seen in the end-times Church. Multiplied thousands will come forth in different cities, regions, and nations (see Deuteronomy 1:11).

59. The Church will begin to contend for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints (see Jude 1:3).

Their strongholds and ideologies as well as  humanism is anything that they disagree with. The reason for this is simple – they do not want you to know anything, but depend on their ‘fresh words’ for support (See 38 – Can you show me with biblical support any of what is mentioned in 38). When Christ told Peter to feed His sheep, He did not mean by signs and wonders, but by the Word of God. Eckhardt would have us dismiss doctrine for charisma. The Germans did the same thing in the 1930’s, dismissing their constitution for the charisma of an Austrian corporal.

Here, but let us remember what Jesus Christ Himself said when plagued by the adversary to great a sign,

Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” But He answered and said, “It is written, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”‘ (Matthew 4:3-4 NKJV)

Paul told Timothy to hold to the Doctrine of the Church. This is not to say that only ‘intellectuals’ are to be ministers, but there is a sound way, sound doctrine, which must be held.

He quotes 1st Corinthians 2.4-5,

And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human[2] wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NKJV)

But he forgets,

However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 NKJV)

This Gospel is Wisdom, the Wisdom of God which is in contrast to the Wisdom of Man. The leaders of Joel’s Army do not want you to listen to the wisdom of God, but to them, in their demonstrations.


For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:22-24 NKJV)

2. A greater release of revelation and insight into the mysteries of God. (Eph 3; 1 Co 4)

There is no new revelation. Paul is speaking about the things being made know to the early Church – which was clearly written down for us.

5. Enforcement of Biblical standards for leadership,

31. Greater release of judgments against immorality and sin both within the Church and society. Pronouncement of judgment upon wicked rulers, wicked governments, and wicked religious, economic and political systems (see Acts 12:23, 13:6-13).

48. Greater emphasis on holiness and righteousness in the Church. This will help stem the tide of worldliness and carnality (see 1 Thessalonians 4:1-7).

You mean like Bob Jones who was exposed committing molestation? And Todd Bentley who was exposed in adultery, drunkenness, and a host of other sins?And concerning governments, remember Romans 13, and th Epistle to Diognetus chapter 5

10. Release of greater resources for Kingdom advancement, including finances and human resources. Greater release of missionaries, both long-term and short-term, for the expansion of the Kingdom. This includes Kingdom businessmen and marketplace apostles (see Acts 4:34-37).

Marketplace apostles? Did I really need to say more?

13. Contending with heresy and doctrinal divisions that keep the Church separated and divided. Defending the truth and preventing apostasy from infiltrating the Church.

20. Emphasis on foundational and important truth that establishes Believers in the faith and prepares them to go to perfection (maturity). Rejection of teachings and any emphasis that are not important and do not matter. Bring redefinition to terms and doctrines that have been taught erroneously.

30. Redigging old wells. Reestablishment and restoration of truth that has been neglected or under-emphasized (see Genesis 26:18).

Doesn’t that contradict number 1?

25. Helping the churches transition into new moves and patterns for ministry. Apostles are raised up during times of transition

He sites Joshua 1, but the Church is not in transition – we know what is going to go on. Further, we have our doctrine, our overseers, and the Spirit that draws us together. In other words, Eckhardt wants you to accept his ‘apostles’ over that of Christ.

Why don’t you email him,

I bet he would like to hear from you, and give him the link to this page.

Joel L. Watts
Joel L. Watts holds a Masters of Arts from United Theological Seminary with a focus in literary and rhetorical criticism of the New Testament. He is currently a Ph.D. student at the University of the Free State, analyzing Paul’s model of atonement in Galatians. He is the author of Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark: Introduction and Commentary (Wipf and Stock, 2013), a co-editor and contributor to From Fear to Faith: Stories of Hitting Spiritual Walls (Energion, 2013), and Praying in God's Theater, Meditations on the Book of Revelation (Wipf and Stock, 2014).

72 thoughts on “John Eckhardt tells you to flee sound doctrine and surrender to the False Prophet

    1. Mark 16:17
      And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues

  1. Polycarp,

    First let me say that I do not see a need for signs and wonders. But I have to say, I think you get a knee jerk reaction to almost anything put out by folks who are charismatic/pentecostal. As you know, I have grave concerns regarding said movements.

    But I guess I must be missing something that you see.

    I dont see a problem with what is written here. I don’t know I would have chosen the exact wording (actually, I’m pretty sure I’d have been more specific and put less emphasis on certain things and greater on others). I certainly do not think the signs need greater emphasis, but I think I can understand trying to get people to put God’s power to work rather than their own. And I am not saying this is what these folks are saying. But are you sure the way you are interpreting it is what they are saying? No where do I see an ignoring of scripture. What is an apostle? The word means sent-one. There are two sorts of apostles, it seems to me: those chosen by Christ and shown to be apostles by signs (2 Corinthians 12:12), and those who are chosen to be sent out (Romans 16:7). What is a prophet? Someone who speaks for God. Has God finished speaking? Has God no need for sent-ones? Where do we see in scripture that there were only apostles and prophets for the foundation of the church? Yes, they ARE the foundation of the church, built atop of Christ (Ephesians 2:20). But does this mean they are no longer needed in today’s church? It is GOD who decides who is to fill which office, including apostle, prophet, teacher, evangelist (Ephesians 4:11). As I have said previously, I see no ending of sign gifts until the perfect comes (1 Corinthians 13:8-12), which I believe to be the new heaven comes (Revelation 21). I have written on this previously ( ) and have another post coming out soon on this. Neither does mean that everyone will be doing these things or that these things should not be tested. I believe everything needs to be tested against scripture and with the use of discernment (Deut 13; 1 Corinthians 12:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22; 1 John 4:1-3).

    I agree with your position of being guarded and protecting of the Church. I agree we need to contend for the faith. I agree we need to watch for false prophets and teachers, and call them such once we’ve gone through the process of asking people to repent laid out in scripture. I agree we need to be especially careful when people start talking about revelation from God. But God has laid out processes for these things that we need to take advantage of so as to not stop God from working and allowing ourselves to grow in faith and knowledge.

    I guess I worry about what seems to be a knee jerk reaction when God has not changed and it worries me that we limit God. It seems to me this is the sort of thing Eckhart is trying to alleviate.

  2. Polycarp,

    As I’ve said before, you are much more aware of these various movements than I. OK. Fair enough. I’ll try to do some research in these areas. I tend to avoid this stuff cause I prefer to speak to what scripture says. But it looks like this is important. These are famous folks.

  3. Hey P.

    I just read it: and Wow!

    If we could live and hold to this and leave the rest to God! [Polycarp hmm?] as i said before: great name!

    I love this blog!

  4. Indeed it is P.

    Well it’s almost that time…

    I love having my weekend begin on Friday morning! I just want to stay hear listen,learn and discuss all the day and night long with you…

    Talk to later P.

  5. What’s most disturbing to me about John Eckhardt is his teaching of Preterist theology. I’m all for the 5 fold ministry gifts being utilized in the Church through the Holy Spirit, but when you begin to tell your church that Jesus is not coming back He already came back in the first century, I have a problem with that.

    What’s wrong with having signs and wonders take place in ministry? Doesn’t the Scripture say that signs and wonders will follow those that believe? Don’t we serve a supernatural God that specializes in supernatural miracles and healings? Let’s not limit God! I’m all for SOUND DOCTRINE, if it’s in the Word of God, then why are we afraid of it?

  6. Wb,

    Not to get into prophecy here, but there focus on the Seven Mountains, with the Church becoming the eight, and now, this ‘seven year season’…well, makes me want to stop reading that last book of the Bible.

  7. If you check out John Eckhardt’s website you will see that he is now an avowed Preterist and is fervently teaching this theology to his congregation and anyone else that will pay $50.00 to hear this junk! It’s worse than you thought!

  8. John Eckhardt is okay with me. If it were not for a prophet showing me signs and wonders, I would still be an atheist on the fast track to hell.

  9. Kevin, not to dissuade you, but read 2nd Thessalonians 2.9. Further, if sings and wonders is what has persuaded you, then what about the power of the Gospel? That is what Paul relied on.

    1. I would not say he is talking about false wonders. Scripture tells us to test the spirit by the spirit. 1 John 4:1- 3″Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.” A good questioin is to ask if he denying Christ when talking about signs and wonder. Another good aspect is to analysis what is doctrine, and extended revelation from God. Has we can interpret from scripture is that God send is His Holy Spirit, which speak what He hears from Christ, and also guides up. The Spirit is able to give us further understanding and train us in our gifting, to edify the body. When things contradict doctrine is when the following occur: more that one God. Jesus is not our Lord. Jesus did not die for our sin, or was not resurrected from the dead. We not to following the ten commendemnt and go against the basic standard moral of living. Blasphemy again the Holy Spirit. People often forget, that Jesus told his disciple that greater works they will do. The gift did not just extended to the 12, but also to Timothy, when Paul told him to strip up the gift, which was given to him my laying on the hand. This tells up, that the there was a gift that was inside Timothy that needed to be trained or stirred. Also when we put thing into context of what he was writing about to the churh in Corinth, in 1 Corinthains Chapter 12, he mentions the working of miracle, and healing. For him to mention, this, there had to be some sort of miracle working in the church. I don’t believe revelation just stop, and the Holy Spirit, just stop working inside us. It could be that we has a church has settled for
      just limiting Christ to a building, rasing offering and building fund, Wednesday and Sunday service, and not not extending our hands to the comunity and the souls outside the church to advance to Kingdom of God.

      Please excuse any errors, i don’t have my glasses.

      God please you all.

  10. While I agree with your view on Dominionism, I have to disagree with your view on Apostles. Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    And: 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

    This makes 2 witnesses to the same truth: Apostles IN THE CHURCH. There’s nothing in the New Testament that even hints that Apostles (or Prophets) have been discontinued.

  11. The Word of God says. In the last days I will pour my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will have visions and your old men will dream.
    The scriptures also tell us thatr the gifts are varied to each person. Some will be apostles some will be prophets, some will heal, some will have tounges. So on and so forth. To say that there is none of this today is fulfilling the Lords warning about the end. They will honor me with their lips but their haerts are far from me. This is the luke warm church. The apostate church. Be careful not to believe every person you hear from. Test all things through the Word of God.

      1. I am sticking to the bible. I am a minister for the Lord. I am one of the ones who expose false prophets. Like Kenneth Hagin. We are in a time of false teachers. False doctrines and false christ’s. Jesus has the only blood to forgive us. Man can do nothing on his own. If this man is false I will see it soon. Otherwise I denounce satan and all his teachers of today in the name of Jesus Christ.

  12. Hi..was just wondering where I can find the above quote from John Eckhardt? Just as a reference of proof that he said this. I would like to use the quote myself but would like to be armed with where to find it. Thanks

  13. If the president of a nation lost his life tomorrow, would that nation remain without a president? no, obviously there would be a by-election for a new president, coz the “president” is not a person but an office or function held by a person.
    The death of the early apostles didnt end the existence of apostles. The office of apostles remains to this day..

  14. We just purchased a Spiritual Warfare Book (Bible) published by Charisma House. John Ekhardt is one of the commentators along with 10 or more others. Even after reading the first article by John Ekhardt I felt he is certainly not an expert probably not even even a true believer. He is a fraud and I wonder how he slipped in as an expert on spiritual warfare. It has nearly ruined the book for me knowing a “false teacher” was included . Thank you for your expose’ on John Ekhardt. Once I learned he was a student of C Peter Wagner I knew it was true—another false teacher”among at least 50 false teachers and prophets I have discovered who are deceiving the public. Thank you for you investigation to protect the public.

  15. Usually, I don’t comment on these kind of blogs(articles) because it’s a waste of time. It’s just funny to me that people (you) take all this time trying prove with your intellect and degree how these people are false prophets releasing false doctrine. Lol. All I can do is laugh. It’s the goodness God that lead people to repentance. What is the fruit of this blogs(article)? What fruit are producing in your life? I don’t know you nor can I judge. I will say this at 16 yrs old I went to Africa and as a young person and I believed the bible that if I lay my hands on the sick they would recover. I saw deaf hears opens, I saw a women dying on her bed no hope and with one prayer of faith received totally healing. The whole family came to believe in Jesus as Lord. I have been 7 countries since then preaching his word and praying for sick. I know I can’t heal anyone. I know that Jesus wants to save and set free every captive and for them to experience his Love. He has healed my body and my mothers body. So my question to you is this? What are you trying prove? All I hear is your education and intellect with no demonstration. We are to walk in the spirit and be transformed by the renewing of our mind In Christ. Wow. Let’s not grieve the Holy Spirit. You will probably ignore what I’m am saying and that’s okay. Please don’t say something stupid like ( fix your grammar) I really don’t care. :/ my point is this, criticism and intellectualism we must be careful. God ways are higher then our ways, He uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. I would never because of my education or experience think I have arrived. Just because you have never experienced or seen some thing the bible has said is true doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen today or Gods will. (Who are you?) Christian are the light of the world. All I hear in this blog is doubt and unbelief.

    What I can see is that you have an ability to write and explain the word of God. Which is awesome and great. Why not use this gift to encourage us to believe God for the impossible in our life and trust Him for our needs. We already have so much negative around us and doubt around us. God is faithful, and to those that teach false doctrine and are doing wrong in the sight of The Lord will be dealt with. These people will have no victory in their life. God will not be mocked what ever a man sows he will also reap. I wouldn’t concerned about them. When people seek god with all their heart they will be found by Him. He will keeps us out of false doctrine because we are seeking Him and want Him. I just don’t see the point for this article.

    God love us with an everlasting Love. He is faithful and true and sickness and disease must go in His presence.


  16. Wow! More folk trying to interpret scripture by way of head knowledge instead of the spirit of God. That is why we have such critical spirits running around in the Body of Christ criticizes people because they believe in the power of God to heal, set free, deliver people. It is a Pharisees mentality. They accused Jesus of being false as well.

  17. John Eckhardt tells you to flee sound doctrine and surrender to the False Prophet this STATEMENT IS A LIE Apostle John Eckhardt speaks the truth in love. Furthermore,he loves God and His people. In addition, Apostle John desires is to see people become to be able to rightly divide the word of God.Many of us do not know the history of the 66 books in the bible. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

    1. Betty Lee, I totally agree with you, while I’m not a proponent of preterist views, I also know that Apostle John loves the Lord and loves God’s people. I know him personally and have NEVER heard him say or write that anyone should flee sound doctrine and surrender to the false prophet. He does so much good behind the scenes that few people know about. He has pioneered the apostolic, prophetic and deliverance ministries within the city of Chicago. If one feels he’s in error, pray for him instead of slandering his name.

  18. hello i have been a believer for eight years.What i see as the bible says every man better be seeking with all there heart the truth from the word.lets look at jesus he was beaten put on a cross and killed for his words.I tell you know as a man that many are being lead astray by men.If i am saved then it says i need no man to teach me i have a unction of the holy ghost witch means anointing that leads me to all truth.But if we do seek it with all our hearts its just lip service not loving god with all our heart and hating the things he hates and wanting to know his word and be changed by his spirit and study to show our self approved to reading not just mp3 etc. as christ was a man approved by the book?the first epistle of general john; CHAPTER 5 VERSE 1THROUGH 12 there is only one god and he sent his son for you and died.god bless do not listen to cunning men were they lay in wait to steal your souls with lies repent of your slothness and get reading the book god bless

  19. Jesus was NEVER the capstone. The capstone is placed on top of the foundation ( cornerstone) and structure. Jesus was the Cornerstone. The Foundation. Capstone is the interpretation that comes from all the latest editions of unholy bibles NIV NTL etc etc, that are published by the same publishing company as the “satanic bibles” Zondervan.

  20. Do you not understand what this means? ‘There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus: LOVE ONE ANOTHER.’ Ro 8:1. Throw away all the shackles that keeps you in bondage and live the abundant life that Jesus has made possible. He that loves has fulfilled the law. Love does no harm to anyone. Those who cause division showed be ‘marked,’ as Paul said. God hates ‘sects.’ We are all ONE in Christ Jesus and should be united, not divided. Is Christ divided?

    What happened to the ‘BODY of CHRIST?’

  21. Do you not understand what this means? ‘There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus: LOVE ONE ANOTHER.’ Ro 8:1. Throw away all the shackles that keeps you in bondage and live the abundant life that Jesus has made possible. He that’s loves has fulfilled the law. Love does no harm to anyone. Those who cause division showed be ‘marked,’ as Paul said. God hates ‘sects.’ We are all ONE in Christ Jesus and should be united, not divided. Is Christ divided?

    What happened to the ‘BODY of CHRIST?’

  22. I have come to realize that in the last days there will come false teachers and prophets, doctrines of demons and seducing spirits. I am not saying John Eckhardt is such a person. I am however saying each one should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. I have have come to the realuzation that we can no longer rely on man to lead us as was done do many years. It is time to get into the word for ourselves, search them and find those paths and walk in them. People have made the gospel of Jesus Christ too complicated, embellishing it and adding human ideas. We need to go back to basics and preach the unadulterated word of God and set the captives free, cast out the demons, heal the sick. Jesus said when you see these things then you know the kingdom of God has come near. BACK TO BASICS.

  23. I don’t disagree that this man needs to read the bible more, and pray that his eyes are opened. However, you are sorely mistaken about prophets, this is certain. For, “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.” (Joel 2:28)

    “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything, hold fast to what is good.”
    (1 Thess 5:20)

    Test this prophecy I was given,
    (from my journal)
    I, Marty, was just received a vision where I was shown shown a map of the entire Middle East; and behold, there was an image of a goat, which was covering the nations. It’s haunches were over the Sinai peninsula and southern Israel. Westward, just before Cairo, was where the tail was. The head stretched north, all the way to Beirut and Damascus, and it’s head was in the ramming position, pointing to the east. His front legs ended where Jordan’s borders are. Then,suddenly, in a cyclical fashion, the land flashed colors in an array of blue and red, then behold, the goat was gone. All the aforementioned land was a solid red color now.

    Then I awoke from the vision.
    “What was that Jesus?”
    I asked.
    “I am doing great things with these people.” A spirit from the heavenly realm said to me.

    I think of what was given to the prophet Daniel, but I am also reminded of the goats on Yeshua’s left in the last day. I am not sure what this means. I think God is showing us that He is converting a great number of goats by blood; that is, the blood of Jesus will be offered to and accepted by these peoples who have been rejecting His Words.

    About the gifts, don’t be discouraged or fall into unbelief because people are being deceived by Satan to misuse and embellish them. Rather, fix your eyes on Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, look to the good instruction from His beloved apostle that says,
    “Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts.(1 Corinthians 12)

  24. I seek always to try the spirits because I must not listen to the many false teachers His word warns us of. Was considering buying his book…Prayers That Move Mountains, but now will not. Thank you!

  25. I agree. Deb, how many signs and wonders did Christ do while on earth? And how many of those that saw Him do these things actually followed Him? Only those that actually believed, by Faith, made it to that upper room on Pentecost.

  26. Wb, I believe that you need to look at these people in the broader picture. First, they have deemed it their goal to take over the seven mountains of the world, in order to prepare the earth for seven years of refreshing. They seek to have an ‘apostolic’ government, with an Apostle over each State to direct the churches in those states. We are not talking about charismatics/pentecostals, Wb, we are talking about those that seek to replace God with a false God, to remove all doctrine for their new words. I would suggest that you consider Joel’s Army and the Seven Mountain Mandate in your research, as well as dominionism.

    Their ‘prophets’ will be able to give new instruction, new words, and new revelations. We are not talking about real prophets that warn or encourage, but those that would move people away from God. Their Apostles seek to control the church, to prepare a victorious Church for the return of Christ, because of them, only when the Apostles and Prophets are in place, and when the Church is victorious in the entire world will Christ come back.

    Their signs glorify themselves. I believe that we may be given signs, but we must remember, that each sign has to be tested against Scripture. Further, remember, in the last days, we are told that signs and wonders will increase, but not from God.

    I understand your concern, but I would hope that you do some research in C. Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, and the others. Understand their terms and words, Wb.

  27. I believe that you are right, indeed. If one kept up with the rhetoric during the campaign, especially centered on Sarah Palin, they would have noticed that this was a wave beginning to show in politics. We are not here to denounce governments or economies, or to align them with godly principles, only the Church and thus ourselves. We must, at times, counter the evil policies of men, but that is not what they are saying. Further, only God will pronounce the judgment, not us.

    Have you ever read the Epistle of Diognetus?

  28. YtLoG, I hope to asked Polycarp one day, if he wrote that piece, but no matter, it is an excellent ministry to those today that confuse Christianity with Patriotism.

  29. Ok, here are my preliminary thoughts concerning dominionism.

    I thought I’d take a look at the definition of dominion escatology. According to the Reclaim the 7 Mountain website ( ), this is defined as: “Dominion Eschatology is the examination of future events through the lens of the dominion mandate in Genesis 1:28 and in Matthew 28:19-20”

    So then I looked at these verses to try to understand where these folks are coming from:

    Genesis 1:28

    8 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

    Matthew 28:19-20

    19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

    First off, Genesis 1:28 is not saying there should be a concerted organized effort to rule over the earth. It is simply saying that mankind was told to spread out and make use of what was there. Second, Matthew 28:19-20 is telling us to share God’s love with people, teaching them what Christ taught. This is not an indication there should be an organized effort to do so. This simply indicates we are to love our brothers, sharing the love of God with them.

    There is a statment on the aforementioned website that states, “Since the condition of the earth reflects the condition of those who have dominion over it, in order for the earth to be blessed and reflect the glory of God, those who are blessed must have a greater influence over it than those who are cursed.”

    This makes the assumption first that saved people are better than unsaved. In fact, we are all sinners (Romans 3:23). Those who trust in Christ are not better than those who do not trust in Christ. We are simply given grace and look forward to being with God in heaven. I have seen Christians make choices as good or as bad as unsaved people. Being saved does not make one better.

    This also makes the assumption that God needs us to do His work. Yes, we are mandated to share the love of God (Matthew 22:37-39). But this does not mean God needs us or our paltry efforts on His behalf (Acts 17:24-25). In fct, our best efforts are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

    While people might think that they are important to bring the kingdom of God to earth, they are mistaken. God has a plan, and it will come to pass (Isaiah 14:24-27; 19:12; 22:11; 23:9; 37:26; 46:10-11; Jeremiah 49:20; 50:45), regardless of what we do. God’s plan does not change (Psalm 33:11). God’s plan includes everything (Proverbs 16:4; Ephesians 1:11). God’s plan is concerned with the welfare of God’s chosen (Psalm 27:10-11; 37; 65:3; 91; 121; 139:16; Daniel 12:1; Jonah 3:1-10; Matthew 6:25-29), not with whether we have dominion over the world. God’s plan prevails over man’s plans (Proverbs 19:21). And while God’s plan sometimes seem to depend on our actions (Jeremiah 36:3; Hebrews 4:7), God’s plan does not depend on our actions (Micah 2:3). God’s power & will decided beforehand what would happen (Acts 4:27-28), so why do people have so little faith in the power of God to do exactly what He said He will do? As people are moved to share the love of God, they will make disciples. Do we think so little of God or so much of ourselves that we think God needs us? God does not need us (Acts 17:24-25). All the days of our lives were ordained & written in God’s book (Psalm 139:16), do you think it does not include when we will share the love of God and with whom?

    The elect were chosen according to the foreknowledge of God (in an intimate relationship) (1 Peter 1:1-2). God chose & predestined believers before creation of the world according to His good will for His plan and purpose (Ephesians 1:3-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). In fact, No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Christ draws him (John 6:44). Scripture is clear that everyone who hears and learns from God the Father will come to Christ (John 6:45). But only those God has specifically granted permission can come to Christ (John 6:65). All the Father gives to Christ will come to Him and never be driven away (John 6:37; 17:24), but some people’s names are not written in the book of Life (Revelation 13:8, 17:8).

    Nothing is mentioned in scripture about needing to take control of cities or towns or governments. It is all God’s doing, using us as His instruments. But there is not need for an organized effort to try to take over the world as seems to be the desire of people who follow the dominion idea. This is not to say God will not use this movement for HIS purpose. But this also does not mean God needs this movement. God’s plan will prevail. He is not concerned with this earth. He will bring about a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13). And it will all be God’s doing – not ours.

  30. Wb, I know that you have a lot of things going on, but please continue to look in from time to time. I will post different things from time to time, of course. After studying these people for a while, I am convinced that they will be a part of God’s plan, just not in the way that their followers think.

  31. Oh, I plan to. This thing looks hinky, as I’ve heard people say. :) Something is not right about it.

    I was taken aback by the statements, “Every covenant that God ever made with mankind was for the purpose of engaging humanity in the Dominion Process”, “God’s covenant people taking dominion of the earth has been the main theme of every covenant that God has ever made with mankind”, and “Since every covenant that God made with mankind was a dominion covenant, there should be little doubt that the New Covenant contains the same dominion mandate” that were made in the aforementioned website.

    Every covenant God has made with mankind was a dominion covenant? I don’t think so. They want to say the Noahic covenant was to increase and fill the earth. But in fact, man was told once again to spread out. This was not part of the convenant.

    Read in context, the covenant was to not destroy the earth with a flood. It was an unconditional, one sided, covenant.
    Genesis 9:11

    11″I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.”

    These people are reading into scripture what is not there.

  32. Polycarp, I can see where one could feel that way. The more I read, the more problems I see.

    Same website states, “Dominion Process describes the process by which God uses mankind to extend His kingdom rule on the earth and take dominion of it.”

    These folks do not understand who God is, apparently.

    God, as the all powerful creator, created everything (Acts 17:24). He is the Lord of heaven and earth (Acts 17:24). God is self-sufficient, and does not need man to serve Him and does not need things (Acts 17:25). GOD has dominion over heaven AND earth, according to Paul, to the point where God determines where d when people live. He does this, not to gain dominion over the earth, but to let people find Him (Acts 17:26-27).

    Additionally, this philosophy states, “The ultimate purpose of the Dominion Process is to create a blessed and redeemed people who can bless and redeem the earth.” It is GOD who redeems us. We do not redeem anything. No where does scripture say mankind is to redeem the world.

  33. Yeah, OK. I admit it. You are right. The dominionist folks are way wrong, and no your post was not a knee-jerk reaction. Thanks for your patience. This has given me lots of fodder for posts.

  34. It’s a scary thing, Wb, and I feel like I have not even scratched the surface. They trace themselves back to the Latter Rain movement of the 1940’s to 50’s, and they are seeking the New Apostolic Reformation. Their words, well, their words remind me of Revelation 17.

  35. Except of course, for the part about Israel. If you read Dominionism long enough, you will see the John Hagee’s emerge, as well as Christian Zionism.

    As Chris Hedges points out in his essay in the May 2005 issue of Harper’s Magazine, the Dominionist belief in the Rapture has a role for Jews that is not very appealing. They believe that “Israel must rule the Biblical land in order for Christ to return, though when he does, all Jews who do not convert to Christianity supposedly will be incinerated as the believers are lifted into heaven.”

  36. Kind of tired of people who have nothing better to do than twist the Word and what folks are genuinely doing for the cause of Christ! That is not to say there are not some who are in sin or have ulterior motives, but the gifts are for today—ALL of them! Test things with Scripture. Why not talk to some of these folks to get clarity if necessary. Some things you will just never agree about–but let’s respectfully disagree.

    Do you really think Christians have no discernment of the Holy Spirit that you must spout off so? Also, the Word declares that signs and wonders will follow. We are not to seek the signs and wonders, but they should be there and ministering to hurting people! The focus for each one of us ought to be developing a deeper relationship with Christ and sharing Him with those who cross our path. I have never heard of the “gift of criticism and fault finding” .

  37. If Jesus said that unless they saw signs and wonders, they would not believe, can we say with confidence today, that signs and wonders are not necessary.

    If you read the last chapter of Matthew and Mark – do you think that healing the sick, casting out demons, speaking with new tongues, and drinking something harmful and not being harmed, are not signs and wonders…

    Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever says the Bible….He worked and works miracles through His Body (the head belongs to the body) and He is the Head of His Body on the earth. Jesus told us to judge the true believers by their fruit, not by their name tag nor by miracles or signs and wonders. Matthew 7:15-23.

    While signs and wonders are not conclusive of a person who truly a disciple of Jesus (see also John 8:31-32), there is nothing in the Word to say they are not valid for today and that Jesus has ceased to do the same miracles He did while on the earth in a physical body. In fact He said we would do Greater miracles than He did because He went to the Father – John 12:14.

  38. Idk about this you guys…. I dint even read the article but the few things i did read well idk you guys. I mean Prophets do exist in a time like this. So do Apostles and all the other things God calls us to be. I mean the things happening in the world what 2000 years ago are worse now. So what makes you think that God wont raise up Prophets and Apostle in these days? We are in the end times. In 1 corinthians 12:28 this is said: And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. So therfore this leads me to beleive that apostles and prophets exist today. After all if we didnt need to know how they were ordered because they dont exist today why did he tell us the order? And how it works?

  39. No, actually the last chapter of mark does not say that. Further, you are reading Scripture not as Scripture but as what you need it to say.

  40. I can’t believe any christian would not want to see some signs and wonders. And that the gifts of the Spirit are not still operational today. I thought Hebrews 13:8 Said Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today & forever, and that Signs wonders and miracles follow them that believe, in my name, they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover, they shall cast out devils. I am by no means saying that is all there is to it. I believe in commitment, relationship, and I do think there is wayyyy to much going on in churches today that is not spirit lead. I don’t follow people or man, but I personally have had the Lord move on me to pray for people, even once right in the front of Burger King. Don’t discard or do away with the power of God, it is still available today and I believe that. Maybe the reason you think it’s gone, is because he never used you. But that is where faith comes in. I couldn’t heal the person I prayed for in the front of Burger King. I don’t have healing power, but Jesus does, and my job is simply to obey. I think because so many people think they can go without being sent, that things are still supposed to happen, but all throughout the pages of the Bible, God performed miracles through ordinary people. I have made my mind up. I will obey. If he sends me, then I think he will be there to back me up, and if he don’t send me, then I’m not budging. Because I know he is the only one with power to perform any kind of miracle. But from what I am reading on this site, you are discounting all miracles or any type of sign wonder or miracle. I believe in a God of miracles, because I can’t even begin to tell of all the things he has done for me! I love the Lord, and not just because of signs wonders or miracles, but because of who he is and what he did for me at the cross, it was his blood shed for my sin, it was him that picked me up out of a horrible pit, and it is him that I trust and believe in. I believe in the cross, I believe in the blood, I believe he is the ONLY way to heaven, and that he is Lord, he is the son of the Living God. But I also believe he is very well able to perform, signs wonders and miracles. And for that, I thank him and I praise him.

  41. Better grammar, please.

    We are not in the “end times.”

    Apostles are the twelve, generally, and only recently have we tried to co-opt something we do not understand. Prophets are only those people who reveal those things going on around them. We had prophets in the Civil Rights movements. I could go on, but I suspect you have already tuned out.

  42. It says in Ephesians 4:7-14 clearly that prophecy and apostleship are some of the gifts given to the church for the work of the ministry and the edifying of the body of Christ. This is after Christ ascended into heaven. And yes there is always new revelation from God. As we grow closer to Him , He reveals more of will in our lives. Revelation increases our faith and our willingness trust God completely. I must say I do not agree with your views at all.

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