1. Gary

    For October, and Halloween (pumpkins):

    St Irenaeus of Lyons Against the Heresies, Vol 1, (how can you not like this guy!)
    “Do not these men seem to you, my dear friend, to have had in mind the Homeric Zeus more than the Sovereign of th universe”

    “that they might appear more perfect than the perfect and be more knowledgeable of the truth than the Gnostics….Oh you nonsense-blabbering pumpkins!”

    Your quote from Irenaeus,
    “unwilling to be at the outset what they have also been created — men, and before that they become men, they wish to be even now like God their Creator”

    SciFi meets Zeus (TALOS) meets DoD…


    Obviously man seeks gnosis! Irenaeus can’t seperate knowledge from vegetables. He’s got some more about cucumbers, but I lost my reference.


  2. Hi Joel,

    Not having read much of Iraneus, I can’t say whether your statement that he thought there was no separation between the Creator and the Creature is correct. However, I don’t think the quoted passage necessarily proves your point. God is uncreated, we are created. We want to be equal to God, even though we are not. We are mortal and corruptible, and it is only by God’s efforts – not ours – that we can become immortal and incorruptible. That seems to suggest that there is a rather large qualitative difference between God and us. If that is what you mean by “separation,” then I think this passage argues that there indeed is one.


    1. Bilbo – let’s speak in ontological terms. We are created as immortal beings, given the divine-ness. We are called, after the Fall, to get back to that. The East calls this Theosis. Wesleyans have their version as well. If we are created in this regarded and are now meant to end there as well, then there is still no separation – not in the sense gnostics and others would have us believe.


      1. Hi Joel,

        Perhaps you are correctly stating or interpreting Iraneus’s view of the matter. I wouldn’t know. But from the passage, it doesn’t sound as if Iraneus saw us as originally immortal, but as mortal:

        “For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility….”

  3. Gary

    And I thought Irenaeus didn’t have a sense of humor. The original Veggie Tales was written by the Gnostics, according to Irenaeus. “With this Cucumber there coexists a consubstantial Power to which I give the name Pumpkin. These Powers – Gourd, UtterEmptiness, Cucumber, and Pumpkin – begot the rest of the multitude of delirious Pumpkins of Valentinus.” Now I know where Charlie Brown and Snoopie got the idea of the Great Pumpkin. Charlie Brown and Snoopie were Gnostics!


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