21 Comments

  1. David

    Unfortunately you’ve listing 17 facts that are not really facts. All of the actual teachings of the LDS Church are readily available at LDS.ORG.

    The website MORMON.ORG is the church’s public relations website, but LDS.ORG is for use by members of the church and contains all of the scripture, lesson manuals and other material used by the church.

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  2. David, I appreciate the comments. Would you care to refute any of these? Any at all?

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  3. ldsneighbor

    I agree with what David said. These facts are strawman misrepresentations of our beliefs. If someone wants to know what we believe, I recommend the Book of Mormon or going to mormon.org. I appreciate your interest.

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  4. I’ve never seen much point in calling people on blogs like this to look at mormon.org without answering the questions, so here goes.

    Well, fact #17 for one, is mostly taken off second or third hand accounts of people recalling the conversation almost 60 years later. A few of the key accounts are also self-contradictory, bringing into question the reliability of the account.

    And in none of the accounts is there any proof that Joseph ever offered the statements (if he even offered them at all) as “a teaching” or “doctrine”, much less as “prophecy.” The idea that the moon was inhabited was a popular idea in the 1800s and embraced by many educated men and women. From what I can see, Joseph was simply speculating around the campfire on a popular fancy of that time, and one of his overzealous followers wrote it down later and tried to push it as doctrine. But it’s not doctrine and Joseph never pushed it as doctrine. If he ever said it at all, which I’m not even sure of.

    #16, is obviously Brigham speaking metaphorically, with “black” being synonymous with darkness of soul and having nothing to do with skin color. Which is pretty much how everyone in the 1800s talked.

    On #15, your Bible verse is utterly irrelevant to the Mormon practice in question.

    On #14, your first quote is highly ambiguous and I have a hard time knowing what Joseph meant by it, even after re-reading it.

    On the second quote:

    “the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till 1 am eighty-five years old.”

    That would be a true statement is Jesus came today, or 100 years from now. Re-read carefully.

    On #13, even if he made that boast, so what? Moses boasted that he had given the children of Israel water and didn’t get to enter the Promised Land as a result. What makes Joseph different in this respect?

    #12 is Bruce R. McConkie’s opinion, and it is not universally shared by those in the LDS faith.

    On #11, let me just ask you:

    What would you think of someone who hung out in gay bars, constantly attacked belief in Jesus, but still claimed to be “saved” because of a confession he’d done as a Southern Baptist 20 years ago?

    #10 seems like a legitimate enough criticism, so I’ll leave it be and move on.

    On #9, we do not expect feelings in the absence of study and thought. This point is regularly made in modern LDS gospel study classes by reference to these verses reprimanding Oliver Cowdery (D&C 9:7-9):

    7 Behold you have not understood, you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought, save it was to ask me;
    8 but behold I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right, I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you: therefore, you shall feel that it is right;
    9 but if it be not right, you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought, that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong: therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred, save it be given you from me.

    Even the famous “Mormon promise” in Moroni chapter 10 requires intense study of the Book of Mormon, comparison of it with the Bible and other information the seeker has about God, and ONLY THEN can the right feelings be expected. Too many Evangelicals (and Mormons) fail to read the entire chapter carefully. Which would reveal this is not about praying for an unsupported “warm fuzzy” from nowhere.

    On #8, your use of Psalms 49 misses the point. LDS work on behalf of our dead does not automatically redeem them. Only an acceptance of Christ on their part does that. All we do is offer them the ordinances if they wish to accept them. We do not really view ourselves as the true cause of salvation for them.

    #7, yup, past leaders have taught that stuff on their own initiative. So what? We don’t teach it today. There is no Mormon doctrine that a prophets words are inerrant. So why should this bother me or any other Mormon?

    #6, yeah… so what? We believe in eternal marriages and families. You expect a guy who lost his first wife in a car crash and then remarried to choose which wife he loves more in heaven? I think it’s a perfectly beautiful idea. And I find the popular traditional Christian idea that in heaven there is no marriage, no family, just one big Borg collective singing repetitive music rather repulsive.

    #5, yes this has been taught. And it is compatible with the Bible, including the Old Testament, and including such passages as Isaiah 45.

    That said, there is no requirement for a Mormon to believe that God was ever anything besides God. Even Joseph’s famous King Follett Sermon doesn’t make it entirely clear what sort of man God is or has been. Also, since Mormons believe matter and human identity to be co-eternal with God, we don’t feel that calling God the same species as us diminishes Him.

    On #4, you are correct on both points. But then again, no Mormon has ever claimed that all our teachings have to be in the Bible to be valid. That’s your own assertion. We don’t share it.

    On #3, Isa 40:8 is not even close to a proof that the Bible will pass through the ages untouched. It could just be talking about the original words of God personally, and not talking about whatever book they were written in.

    On #2, I don’t see what the problem is. McConkie wasn’t making a theological statement, just a statement of reality. If Joseph hadn’t restored the true Gospel of Christ, we wouldn’t have it today. If Paul hadn’t traveled to Athens, and preached there, the Athenians wouldn’t have had it either.

    Seems kind of like a statement of the obvious to me.

    On #1 you wrote:

    “The Mormon Church teaches ALL other Churches are WRONG; ALL their creeds are an ABOMINATION in the sight of God; and ALL their teachers are corrupt.”

    We do. And they are.

    The creeds of historical Christianity are a corrupt perversion of the True and Living Gospel. You have sought to chain the Living God with your philosophical proofs and theological boondoggles. A literal intellectual Tower of Babel indeed. Then you take these man-made creations and use them as tools to push away those you don’t like.

    This is a solemn perversion and mockery of the Gospel Jesus taught. And I have no apologies about calling you out on it.

    The Nicene, Athanasian, and Apostles creed are utterly incomprehensible, inaccessible, and logically incoherent. The fact that such inadequate pieces of human folly are still being used today to determine who is or is not Christian is one of the prime heresies alive today.

    This is not to say that your church and other churches do not have a LOT of very good teachings and doctrines. You do. But you are also carrying some very ugly baggage.

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  5. Finally, someone that attempts to refute Mormonism. Seth, tell you what, I am going to take a bit of family time, but I am going to spend this week devoted to Mormonism. Hope you stick around.

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  6. Tim Chalke

    Poly,

    Don’t be a silly chap. Seth was not attempting to refute mormonism, but simply provide explanations to your attack on the Church. No matter what distortions to facts you are able to dig up, the Church is still true. But you obviously have an axe to grind. Enjoy yourself.

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  7. Tim,

    The Aussie accent comes through loudly! Tim, there is nothing about the LDS that is true. They have been found false on history, theology, and facts. Can you refute anything that these articles say?

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  8. Ashlie

    Can I add that when Jesus himself was on the earth everyone believed he was lying too? He couldn’t have been Jesus, he healed on sundays….that sinner him.

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  9. You can what you wish, but in the end, we have historical evidence for the OT and the NT, but nothing for the BoM.

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