Good for him!
I really don’t care what group wants to build what – but if I was in Kentucky, I’d be a little upset that my tax dollars were being used to in such a way.
Answers in Genesis is not a ministry – well, not an honest one. I have to agree with Lynn, that they are comparable with Harold Camping. Neither care about actually reading the bible. Period.
And, just to be clear – I wouldn’t want my tax dollars being used for any actual ministry either.
Related articles
- Kentucky getting Noah’s Ark theme park (seattletimes.nwsource.com)
- “Kentucky Finalizes Tax Breaks For Noah’s Ark Theme Park” and related posts (religionclause.blogspot.com)
- Kentucky Grants Creationist Theme Park $43M In Tax Incentives (tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com)
Joel Landon Watts is a Masters of Theological Studies student with a focus in Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark. His interests include exploring the role of mimesis in human civilization, specifically in the study of religion and media, as well as science fiction and the way in which it has allowed mythology to be explored in light of scientific ideals of the past century. Currently, he is a TA for Old Testament at United Theological Seminary under Dr. Vivian Johnson, Associate Professor of Old Testament. His first book, Rhetorical Strategies of the Evangelist: Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark, is expected to be published by Wipf and Stock early next year. He is currently co-editing a book on moving from Fear to Faith (Energion, 2013).
Anyone who has given tax money to Answers in Genesis should be impeached
and exiled
Nay, castrated.
But think of the children…!
…
Forget I said that.
No fear–your tax dollars won’t be going to build the Ark. No money will be taken out of Kentucky’s state budget. Here’s what will really happen: if the Ark meets attendance goals and as tourism dollars pour into the state, it will receive partial rebates on sales taxes paid by its visitors. In other words, the money going back to the attraction will be from those who voluntarily chose to visit; no unwilling taxpayer will subsidize the Ark.There is no financial risk to the state. Please get your facts straight before you go public with a comment such as “I wouldn’t want my tax dollars being used for any actual ministry.” That’s a flat-out wrong statement. Thank you. Mark
Mark, when you give a tax credit or rebate, It is giving tax dollars back to the ‘ministry’. Unless you do notunderstand the tax system then you are lying to the public about the situation.
Joel, since churches are “tax-exempt,” this, by your logic is subsidizing religion. It is a “theme-park,” no different than Kings Island or Disney’s parks with their “indocrination” by those who also care nothing of “actually reading the bible. Period.”
The “Right Reverend Barry Lynn” also cares nothing for truth as is clearly evidenced in his “full of lies and mis-characterization” video whose intention is merely seeking dollars from a gullible audience. Much like Harold Camping.
Jeff,
I’m not sure churches should be tax-exempt, actually, but any entity that charges admission for participation should not be. Again, this is not a tax-exempt issue. It is that they are receiving money back.
I have yet to see you care for anything but your own self, Jeff and have proven your self full of lies and mis-characterization. I’d be weary of casting that stone you think you have.
“any entity that charges admission for participation should not be” You mean like National Parks and government funded museums and public/government schools?
The tax exempt status of churches is founded on the understanding that the power of taxation is the power to control. Thus freedom of religion for the church demands freddom from taxation by the government.
On the second paragraph, Joel, you see very little with your eyes scaled over by hatred for those you feel represent the fundamentalism from which you falsely believed you escaped.
Jeff, they are a business – a religious business. They are not a government operation as you are the entities which you noted above. Try again.
This group is not a church, nor in my opinion a real ministry, but it is a business.
Wait? You a fundamentalist? You won’t even admit that you are a Christian. Sure, you like to dance over the graves of the dead, but that’s not exactly a Christian thing. Oh, and you lie – that’s not a Christian thing either. You are fundie what, exactly?
Witch! Witch! That’s what you seem to like to do. Label a person so you can attack them because of your hatred. No I’m not a “fundie” but I defend the right of those you label as such to believe and express their beliefs just as you do.
What’s wrong with people believing what the Ken Ham folks believe? And to operate a business based upon those beliefs. They are not a tax-exempt organization, but a legitimate business seeking the same treatment from government that a multitude of other businesses seek.
Why are “government-sponsored” organizations allowed to promote their views–views contrary to those held by the majority of Americans–tax-exempt, or more correctly, taxpayer funded?
I love the majority card…. it is as laughable as the god card
Believing in ken ham is promoting delusionalism… it is a detriment to the mental health of the country
do not pose hypotheticals, Jeff.. give real examples and let’s see if your attacks hold water
People have the right to promote delusionalism as much as any other ism. What is detrimental to the health of of the country are those who arrogantly believe they know what is best for the health of the country.
You mean like the tea party or you? I notice that when you are backed into a corner, you switch gears and refuse to answer questions. Like usual.
Why do you always need to label people? Does that make it easier for you? Is taht how you relate to people. Jesus was rejected because he refused to accept the labels those of his day place upon people. Why do you insist on placing those labels?
I’ve answered your questions. I’m not a fundamentalist, or a Tea Partier. What other question have you asked?
Actually – you haven’t answered questions. At all.
And talking about lieing. You say, “I really don’t care what group wants to build what,” yet, your whole post and comments proclaims exactly that you do!
Build a porn shop – which is just about what the Ark Park is – but not with tax dollars
Where and what are the questions, Joel?
And, as to equalting the ark park to a porn shop . . . you are a disgusting little man filled with hatred to those who frighten you because they reject your theology. How little you are.
I asked you to stop with the hypotheticals, for one.
Like the porn shops, the Ark Park presents an unfaithful view of various things and positions unattainable. Both are disgusting because both prey on human weaknesses.
LOL!!!!!! They should do a case study on this blog at UC Berkeley psych dept. You are one of a kind!
Everyone is one of a kind…. Even those with assumed and anonymous names on the internet… Even trolls.
Joel: I don’t know how much clearer we can be in correcting your belief that “your” tax dollars will build the Ark. The only taxpayer involved in the Ark when it opens is the person who chooses to visit the Ark attraction and pays sales tax there. The Ark may get some of that sales tax money back if attendance meets certain milestones. It’s not tax dollars taken out of the state budget–in fact, the state coffers benefit from sales tax collected at the Ark, plus the income tax it receives from the thousands of employees working at Ark-related jobs that will be created, from sales tax collected from the businesses that pop up, etc. It is a net gain for the state treasury, and thus should lessen the tax burden for Kentuckians.
Disagree with our Ark’s message all you want, but not for the bogus reason you cited in your poorly researched postings. Frankly, you are the one who does not understand the system and the nature of the rebate. Mark
Mark. When you get a tax rebate, that is money not being used by the state, thus, tax dollars being given to the ark project from other tax payers.
Are you seriously gonna let that statement equivocating the Ark Encounter and a porn shop stand? Have you no integrity left, Joel? Has your zeal and hatred against Answers in Genesis so blinded you to reason?
God rebuke you for your pride.
God rebuke you for you idolization, your irreverence of Scripture, your false doctrine and your zeal for the works of darkness, Tony.
Reason promotes zeal against the ugly facade which is AiG.
Joel, wake up. Please.
Idolization? of what specifically? If I preach false doctrine by teaching a young Earth and a worldwide Flood in the days of Noah so did Paul, so chew on that a while. As did Peter. As did the author of Hebrews. and Christ Himself. As for my “irreverence” of Scripture, which is more irreverent: the man who believes what it says because he believes it to be the true and supernaturally revealed account of a God who never lies, or the guy who edits it, revises it and dissects it as he would any other man-made document – and only believes it when it suits his presuppositional political views?
So I take it your porn shop statement stands then?
Idolization = YEC, Ham, bad Science, Literalism, Scripture.
Paul didn’t teach that, actually, so right back at you.
Neither did the rest you mentioned – and stop speaking for Christ.
Your irreverence of Scripture is that you are trying to make it say what you what want it to say. You don’t even seek to know what it means – you tell it what it means and accomplish only eisegesis. You edit, lie about God, and do your own redacting as you see fit. Not sure about the ‘political’ views bit, unless, as usual, you are doing some ad hom.
Yes, the porn shop comments stands. Both are charging people for something that is simply not true but passing it off as it is.
Ridiculous!!! LOL!!! Porn Shop? LOL!!! With each post and each response you show your self-centered view of the world and scripture to be bar none. Your blogs are entertaining enough, but your responses and how you stick to your guns despite looking crazy and delusional are the most entertaining part of it all. Keep on blogging and responding. Hours of entertainment. Your blog is going to be hugely successful for this reason alone.
I’ve noticed something Jeff. You don’t provide Scripture. All you do is attack. Shame, really. But, I know where you are coming from. I hope you find grace.
hahahahaha!
Quoting scripture does no good for someone who is scripturally inept. It takes the Holy Spirit to understand scripture.
two things you have a deficit in
BTW, I am not Jeff.
wink wink – sure….
The saddest part is you actually believe what you are saying. Your brand of christianity is poisonous to others. I wonder how many people you have cut off from the Lord?
Nobody wants what you have. Why would someone want a relationship with Christ if you are his representative?
Control is your motive and you do everything you can to achieve it whether it is judgement or whatever. You have to have agreement from everyone or they are made outcasts. It is obvious from your posting that you’re not even happy with what you have. Why would anyone else be happy with it. You’re acting like the pharisees who threw the blind man from the synagogue because he said it was Jesus who healed him. So you cast out anyone who doesn’t share your opinions.
said the man who keeps commenting and commenting and commenting, under assumed names, while lashing out, insulting and saying what exactly?
Ummmmm…………..
Don’t act like you have the authority rebuke anyone on behalf of God. Tony, I don’t know if it is a lack of integrity at the core as much as it is insecurity. If the issue was integrity it would be easy to be mad at a guy like this.
I believe it is simply insecurity and the chosen mask for him is an egotistical viewpoint that can never admit defeat. To admit defeat would leave this writer having to face his own nakedness. In this case it is hard to be angry at a guy like this despite the things he is spewing out. It is just a sad sight to see.
Tony, I don’t think your comments, or mine for that matter will ever convince him to change. It would take an act of God. Maybe instead of attacking back which is the human way to react, we should instead lift him up in prayer. I don’t care how messed up a man may be they are never outside the power of God to be made whole again.
‘Christian’ – no, you are correct – Tony doesn’t have the authority to rebuke anyone on behalf of God.
Otherwise, your comments fall into the realm of ‘um, have you been reading?’ and, oddly enough ‘say, I bet you think you know how to read the bible because you think that you and only your line of reasoning has received a direct revelation from God’ although others through the centuries, much to their chagrin and to the murderous rampages which they created, have said the same thing.
If I would you and Tony, I would be more circumspect when speaking ‘on behalf of God.’ While He has taken a lot of abuse over the course of time, I still hate to see it happen – and it seems that you two and others here and no problem adding more insult to the injuries given to Him.
God, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Mark Looy — don’t you feel ashamed that silliness like this is going on permanent exhibit in your state?
Joel: Let me repeat — the ONLY taxpayer involved in the Ark’s operation is the person who VOLUNTARILY chooses to visit the Ark attraction and pays sales tax there, and a part of THEIR sales tax may come back to us in the form of a rebate. Mark
Rebate = Tax money coming to you.
You are a business peddling things under the guise of religion. By giving you a rebate, the State is missing out on much needed funds. Because they choose to give you money back, you as a ‘religious’ institution, you are getting tax dollars which should be used by the State. That means that there are less to go around – because you want a rebate.
Joel: You’re moving the goalposts now that you’ve been shown to be wrong in your claim that Kentucky taxpayers are involuntarily subsidizing the Ark. Let me correct you on two other matters: 1. the reason the state offers an “incentive” in the form of tax rebates to tourist attractions is to have them build here as opposed to another state (two counties in Indiana have courted us) and still see a net gain for Kentucky even after the rebate is given (that’s why it’s called an incentive), and 2. that means there is MORE money to go around for the services the state provides, not less as you contend in post #15. How many times must I write that there is a net gain for the state if we build in Kentucky and not elsewhere? If we built out of state, millions of dollars would go with the project and Kentuckians lose.
What is your real opposition to a project that will see a state greatly benefitting by increased tax revenue and thousands of new jobs? And why get so emotional and suggest that I might be “lying” about the nature of the rebate (your #6 posting)?
Mark
Mark, no goal posts – not wrong.
1.) You claim to be a religious organization. Thus, you should not get tax dollars. You are a business, operating under the guise of religion – nevertheless, tax dollars should not be used to support religion.
You are trying to argue something different now. Regardless if it does bring jobs, tax dollars should not be use to lure ministries, or prop them up. Period.
My position is that it is a religious business and thus should not be supported by the public. Duh.
Not emotional, really, Mark, but you guys are lying in many of your statements – and not least about the 6000 year thing.
Hey Joel, if they are receiving tax incentives strictly from a business perspective, I wonder if they can discriminate when hiring. I’m a Roman Catholic with a PhD in Biblical Languages and an MA in Old Testament and Hebrew Language. I’d probably be highly qualified to work at a park based on a Biblical themes. I could work there and present visitors with widely accepted scholarly views of the story of Noah’s ark, like … I don’t know … the fact that most of them don’t believe it actually happened or that there was a worldwide flood.
I could also tell them how the story of Noah’s flood has been interpreted within Catholic tradition as a type of the sacrament of Baptism to give them some historical perspective.
I wonder if they’d hire me.
I’m sure that while they want the tax dollars of the non free market business system that they do not want to abide by any other laws which require non-discrimination. I mean, here at least, they will claim church status
Really, there should not be any tax credits or tax dollars going to any business. Governments should not favor any business endeavor (its called the free market), let alone any religion.
Ridiculous.
BTW the KY governor is a Democrat. #justprayin
yeah, I know…. but even Democrats – every once in a while, even if that while is a ‘long while’ – makes a mistake
I am so confused. If God supported Young Earth creationism, wouldn’t He have provided a way for the Noah’s Ark Park to be built. Why do you all need the government’s help. Doesn’t God help those who help themselves?
Your right, you are very confused. Particularly about God.
Want to tell me, pray tell, how I am confused about God?
Am I the one guilty of bibliolatry in the name of “literalism” for ever word in Genesis 1-3 except for the “dome” part?
The dome part… the required incest… the two creation stories present on those two chapters…
Oh I forgot about those.
Must have been all that confusion about pretending to believe in a free market but wanting tax payers to cover my business expenses.
Now you’ll get Jeff denying that he supports the free market system.
You two clowns are great at putting words in the mouths of others.
Jeff, you realize all you do is attack and insult, right? Poor guy…
Good god, Joel! Do you ever read your own posts man?
Still hiding your inadequacy with fig leaves of judgement, labeling, accusations etc. . . . The majority of people who read this blog have your number. You are just numb to it, clinging to the few who agree with you for comfort.
Jeff, you really do have issues
Your issues are evident to all. Your ego far outweighs your intelligence or heart.
Jeff, all you do is insult. This is why you are moderated. And, close to being banned
Sorry, Joel, you’re the one with issues. Serious psychological issues. I’m sorry for whatever has happened in your past that has warped you so badly and caused you to express such hatred to those who disagree with you.
I am not the one posting under the name “Enlightened.” Perhaps its yourself, and so, go ahead and make the joke about it. It doesn’t matter to me. You and your ilk can get their “jollies” off it.
For the record, I don’t agree 100% with what you call YEC nor do I disagree entirely with them, either. It just sickens me to see an arrogant self-righteous blowhard, like yourself, simply mocking and ridiculing those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ, yet don’t tow your doctrinal or hermeneutical line. You are an embarrassment to the name of Christ.
You can post this if you like, but it is directed personally to you and not to your readers.
Jeff, i was once like you. Angry. No grace. Hateful. I pity you. There is no record for you because you post under assumed named, different identities, and rarely commit yourself except when attacking me. That seems to be your sole purpose here. I know how that works. I pity you, Jeff, because you simply do not yet know Christ. Your attacks can continue. All it shows is your hateful heart.
All I do is insult? You will be condemned by your own words you hypocrite:
“God rebuke you for you idolization, your irreverence of Scripture, your false doctrine and your zeal for the works of darkness, Tony.” posted by Joel.
“Jeff, you really do have issues,” posted by Joel.
“No grace. Hateful. I pity you.” posted by Joel.
“Also, shows that you have no clue what a Pharisee was or anything else about the bible. Thanks for playing (Jeff)” Posted by Joel
“simply do not yet know Christ.” posted by Joel.
Just from one blog article. Everyone who reads this blog can see who you really are and no doubt even laugh at your postings.
When I first started viewing your blog I thought you were joking in most of your responses because they seemed so delusional and hateful. No doubt others do the same. But your hatred and hard heart fill every blog entry and I don’t think you are joking anymore. Why do you continually make crooked the straight path of theLord you wolf in sheep’s clothing? All you do is defend yourself and your point of view with as much hatred as it takes to silence those of a different view.
Jeff, you read the blog like you do the bible (do you even read Scripture?) – you proof text and take things out of context.
But, that is what I would expect from someone like you.
Joel, you don’t know me at all. What you attribute to me is what you see in yourself and hate. It is the same in your emotional attacks against others you percieve to be conservative/fundamental. While you claim to have escaped your past, you continue to dwell in it–a self-righteous arrogance that can only stand by tearing down those who express ideas that threaten your self-esteem.
A hateful heart is the one that is unable to accept others in Christ because of the threat they pose to themselves.
Jeff, it is pretty clear what you have.
How self-righteous.
said the man who assumes anonymous identities and proof-texts….
Jeff, I don’t know you but I have read through many of these blind blogs of Joel’s. Discussion is futile with Joel as he is the very model of the modern day pharisee. Quoting scripture and claiming knowledge of it. When people respond, his answer is usually give me scripture to support it. When people give scripture to support it making it very obvious he is incorrect he says they misquote. And when all else fails, he then attacks their character. I’ve seen him do it to others. His heart is hard as stone. Only the Holy Spirit can soften it.
Blessings.
said the guy/girl hiding behind a false email/name (another tactic of Jeff).
Also, shows that you have no clue what a Pharisee was or anything else about the bible. Thanks for playing (Jeff)
The only person that agrees with Jeff, is, well, Jeff! lols! what a joke he has made of himself!
Indeed. He and rhology are peas in a pod
Here we go, more false doctrine of Joel. Just plain poisonous.
God=Government when it is a conservative project.
Of course, as long as it is done by the religious right, social engineering is okay.
hahhahahah http://politicaljesus.com/2011/06/12/sunday-funnies-welcome-to-jubilee-land-a-second-temple-judaism-theme-park/
Mark Looy: “the reason the state offers an “incentive” in the form of tax rebates to tourist attractions”
This is an “attraction” in the same way that an accident on the side of the road is an “attraction” — something so ghastly and horrible that you can’t take your eyes off it.
As for it attracting tourists, well . . . it’s certainly something that people from other countries will come and laugh at.
Joel,
I attempted to send this message via the administrator e-mail connected with your blog. However, it was returned “mail delivery failed.” Perhaps I failed to send it properly, or don’t have the correct e-mail with which to contact you. At any rate, since you will not post my comments without you first examining them, I’ll do it this way . . .
I have said truthfully that I am not the commenter going by the name “Enlightened” who continues to post remarks on your blog. I believe you can verify that those posts and mine do not originate from the same computer/server/whatever. I find it difficult to believe that you have not done so already.
Your insistence on suggesting to your readers that “Enlightened” and I are one and the same is dishonest in the least.
Please refrain from continuing these suggestions to your readers.
Jeff Brunsman
Jeff/Enlightened – I have. No worries. You have already proven that you used assumed and different names – and different ISP addresses and emails, etc… No reason to start trusting you now, given that your writing styles are the same.
Jeff and I are not the same person. You don’t know what you are talking about.
from everything you have written, I gather that you know even less
Joel. Can’t believe that lack of intelligence and clear thinking you demonstrate. This money would NEVER EXIST for the state to claim if the ark built elsewhere, so it is a GAIN to the state and no tax dollars are being used. You cannot reasonably claim that tax dollars are going to this project when, without it, those dollars WOULD NEVER EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE. Belatedly realizing this must be why you started your “duck and weave” strategy of trying to change the subject…which also failed. Your comparison of the ark to a “porn shop” is really a miserably pitiful attempt to salvage the mess you created.
Skip,
I appreciate your comment. First, every piece of land or proto-business has tax potential. The fact that they are already operating a ‘museum’ is evident that it is more than a potential. As Ron Paul said last night – government should not be endorsing business. Other wise, your comment is a waste of space.
Further, and I’ll get to this in a subsequent post. Obviously, not one of you have read the book of Hosea and especially the book of Ezekiel. Then again, none of you have really read the first couple of chapters of Genesis either.
I’m really confused on where you stand on God’s Word. I’m not sure how blasting the legitimacy of Genesis and most of the Old Testament’s history is God honoring. Of course, then there is the libel against those who stand up for God’s Word. I think it is better to take God’s Word at His Word. It’s so terribly confusing on how hostile you are towards this ministry! Are your statements Christ-like? Are they even rational, with the “porn shop” statement? This is flat out strange!
Perry – I’m confused as to what you consider ‘God’s Word.’
No one is ‘blasting the legitimacy of Genesis and most of the Old Testament’s history’, well, maybe the YEC crowd. After all, they are seeking to destroy the messages of Genesis 1 and 2 with their tripe. Indeed, for those who actually know how to study the bible, we are trying to uplift it our of the superstition brought upon it by those who seek to dismiss the authority of the message.
Re: Porn Shop – Read Ezekiel, please, and something more than chapters 37-39.
Joel, you are taking this too far. You are being an internet troll clawing to prove to everyone you are right and everyone else is wrong. The truth is that there will be no tax dollars lost from Kentuckians that don’t CHOSE to go visit the ark. It sounds to me that you have a biased against the creation museum and are everything it stands for, and you ware willing to do whatever it takes to shed a bad light on them.
Um, Ryan, dude, this is actually my own blog. Which I’ve head for over three years. That sorta defeats your attempted insult of ‘troll’ which you need look no further than a few of the commentators on this post to see a prime example of.
Yes – everything is stands for which is similar to what a porn shop stands for.
I don’t care if you have had this website over 50 years. Just because you own this blog does not mean you are exempt from being a troll.
Um, yeah, it does
“a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.”
Um, does that sound familiar?
Yes. You, Jeff, Enlightened, etc.. as this is my blog… You guys would be the trolls, especially those woth anonymous names and the such.
Wow someone doesn’t get it… a troll is SOMEONE who POSTS inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages. So unless you aren’t a SOMEONE or POST anything inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages, then you can say you are not a troll.
No, Ryan – I don’t think you get it. A Troll is generally anonymous. Plus, they go into online forums to post. What you are saying would describe Foxnews.
Since when does it say “a troll is someone who posts anonymous things on peoples blogs” My point is you have tried to change the subject and belittle people for the purpose of trying to prove you are right. You never even tried to argue my post earlier about having a biased view on the Creation Museum, so I know where your view stands on that. Until you can look at the Creation Museum without a biased towards it, you will never see the clear picture.
You realize you are quoting Wiki?
You actually have no point because you are using a straw man.
The reason I don’t like the Creation Musuem and the Ark Prk is because I have a clear picture of it. It is a disgusting abuse of scripture
So what if it’s from wiki? It basically is the same concept. Just keep trying. But I want you to give me some examples of what the creation museum says that goes against scripture.
6 days of creation.
Sorry I think that I responded to my comment and not yours. I don’t know if you got it, so I will post it again. What about 6 days of creation? Can you please explain further?
Read John Walton’s book, the Lost World of Genesis 1.
I don’t have time to read another book. I’m already reading two. Can you just summarize it?
Ryan – Genesis 1 is tied to Temple Worship, true Temple Worship. It is not about Creation as a 6-day event, but celebrating Creation in 6 days (sort of) which is in line with Hebrew Religion. If you want, I will buy that book for you.
What do you mean Genesis 1 isn’t about creation in a 6 day event? If you take Genesis for what it is, it boils down to just the story of creation.
Actually, no. If you take Genesis for what it is, then you would do historical research. You would textual research. You would look at the words and how they were used and should be used. Walton posits, using Hebrew, that the word which is often translated as ‘create’ in Genesis 1, but other ways in other places, denotes an ordering. Knowing, then, that Ancient Near Eastern cultures believed that something was ‘created’ when it was given purpose, then is it not about God creating the planet, but about God ordering the sun and the moon, and the such for ritual worship of Himself, and taken in the light of the Exile, we understand the Jews who kept this sacred text would understand the meaning to be a polemic against the Babylonian rulers.
Simply ‘reading the text’ abuses it. We are commanded to study, not to simply read the text and say ‘see, this is clear.’
Lamest. comment. ever.
What about 6 days of creation?
I’ve just seen the previous postings and find it hard to believe that people like writing this sort of thing. Shouldn’t we all try and be nice to each other? I hope that no-one will accuse me of being a cheat or a liar. I’m sure you are all very nice, really, so let’s all be friends.
LeRoy, personally, if their heart is in Christ, then they are my brothers and sisters.
Wow, these comments are really evil, didn’t realize how much, until I read the truth here first hand. This Joel sure shows his self-righteous hand, doesn’t he? Does he think he’s a “Pharasee” or something? He sure serves the dark side well, doesn’t he? You can tell he’s so foolish and should be embarrassed; he often inserts his foot in his mouth, then goes on to make himself look even more foolish, instead of admitting like a man, when he’s wrong and uninformed. What a fool, so he’s a gossiper, even atheists gotta laugh at this “hypocrite.” He acts like a total trouble maker, and a real moron in the real world.. He is so afraid of God, you can actually smell it here! Don’t worry Joel, you will have your chance to repeat all these statements on you shaky little knees before God some day…soon. It is God you hate, and anyone that has to do with HIM, it shows. We aren’t Bible illiterates like you, ya know. Whats the matter, God wasn’t a “genie” to you and grant you many wishes? You are not an authority on anything. You sound ignorant and uneducated, and very depraved.
Catherine, do you know what a mirror is? You should take a gander into it
This guy Joel, what is your problem with the Ark project? Why are you so fired up by it? Is there a hidden agenda? Why are you being such an anti-Christ? You were corrected over and over again that the Ark project won’t benefit from tax payers’ money but you still don’t get it. Are you really that thick? Personally, I hope the Kentucky state would support and help this project all they can. After all it is for the benefit of all and for the glory of God Almighty. God bless AnswerInGenesis. Amen.
Robert Kay, London, UK.
Robert – it is clear you haven’t read 1 John as you improperly use the term ‘anti-Christ.’
Glorifying God by charging a ticket to sell a lie…. umm…
LOL!! I believe that answer comes from II Joel 2:7.
So… like others… you have nothing to offer… no Scripture for your viewpoint. No actual biblical studies. No other.
Change your name before you bring dishonor to it.
Oh, wait . . . I’m really confused! Help me out here, Joel. Am I Perry? Or just Enlightened? Or maybe I’m Exoticdoc2? Or just Jeff? I can’t keep this straight anymore. You have gotten me so mixed up. Why did you start me on questioning my existence?
Nope, Jeff – just enlighted I assume. But, oui, you are confused.
Sorry you are being attacked Jeff. Interesting article though.
hahahhahahahahahahaha
Wow….such anger. Why can’t people have different opinions without attacking each other? I just have one more question…..It was stated that ” the reason the state offers an “incentive” in the form of tax rebates to tourist attractions is to have them build here as opposed to another state ..” Here’s my question….is this a special incentive only for AiG? Or is it extended to all attractions? If it’s to all attractions, then the whole question of whether tax money is supporting religion is not a valid argument.
Sandy – the State shouldn’t be supporting religious attractions. Ask yourself – would Kentucky allow a Mecca Land?
You didn’t answer my question. If they are paying taxes, then they should get the same benefits as any other company. You yourself state they shouldn’t get any benefits because they are a business. Fine, using your argument…do other businesses get this tax incentive? If so, so should they. I’ll meet you half way, tax them like any other business. But then also give them incentives like other businesses. To tax them as a business, but refuse them benfits that others get because they are religious, would be punishing them for being religious…and the government doesn’t have that right, thus the whole reason for separation of church and state.
Sandy – as Rodney pointed out, many believe that no business should get tax breaks.
I’m not sure I would go that far – but I do know that I would stop with giving a religious enterprise the same benefits, etc… as a secular business. There is a reason why we have laws prevents the respecting of the establishment of religion. As this is not just a business to sell t-shirts, but one which seeks to promulgate a ‘religious’ message (and awfully bad science), then it should be separated from other businesses.
No, you are correct. You cannot punish them for being a religious business, but neither can you give them precedence. Would you be willing to allow a tax-breaked/rebated Mecca Land in Kentucky, or your own home state?
I support many organizations I don’t agree with through taxes. It’s one of the things I have to accept as a citizen of this great country. Would I like a Mecca land….no…but there wouldn’t be anything I can do, this is America. Also, since my tax dollars would not be supporting it, I would have to give them the same benefits as say a DisnyWorld. If you want them taxed like a regualar business, then they should get the same incentives. No special treatment should carry throughout the tax code, including same incentives. As for Rodney’s position, many people think that way…and I tend to lean this way, too, until I really think about it. Businesses get tax breaks to encourage them to a specific location. Which in turn stimulates the ecomony through putting people to work. Working people means more income taxes and because people are working they will stimulate the economy by shopping. It’s a win-win situation for all of us. Which from a purely ecominc point of view, the Ark attraction will help stimulate the economy in that area. Also, notice one of them said they get a tax incentive, IF they reach certain numbers. They MAY get a tax rebate. Nothing is for sure unless they uphold their end of the bargain, which is getting the number of people they think will come. If they build in Indiana, Indiana will benefit, not Kentucky. Take the religion out of your argument since they are being considered a business and being taxed. If it was Mickey Mouse instead, would you still be fighting this hard? Or would you argue how it’ll stimulate the economy in this area?
Sandy – at least you seem fair and honest and frankly, you are a breath of fresh air.
I would urge you to read Henry David Thoreau about the use and with holding of tax dollars for immoral causes by our Government. But, alas, that is a different matter.
Here’s the problem. I don’t want tax dollars supporting ministries posing as businesses using tax breaks/rebates/incentives to advance religion.
Joel is a wolf in sheep’s clothing…what a fool, a bozo at best.
um…. say, about the cowardly use of no real email and no real name and name calling… doesn’t that sorta count as a wolf in sheep’s clothing?
Government lover!
hahahahahahaha
Romans 13.
http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2011/06/ark-park-as-porn-shop-claiming-the-ezekiel-mantle-and-aig-doesnt-like-me/
http://politicaljesus.com/2011/06/14/creationists-moving-the-goal-posts-how-tax-breaks-work/
[...] clearly have not read Ezekiel chapter 23 or Hosea, otherwise, they would not be so shocked by Joel’s comment, comparing funding the “Ark Encounter” with an adult film store. Of course, the YEC’s put Joel, James McGrath, I and other Christians in a camp that [...]
I don’t see the point in attacking Joel at all. So what if he believes that tax dollars shouldn’t go towards the ark exhibit if he’s right or wrong? So what? Does the man believe that Christ died for our sins and in the resurrection and do his actions show that he believes in that truth?
The real question is, what is the truth? There’s only one way to find that out for yourself and that is through the holy spirit and praying on it.
I’d say the wise thing to do would be to study into into creation and what GOD has to say about it through the scripture and praying on it if God has placed that on your heart.
If you believe in YEC or evolution or what, only one is right and if one is stubborn in debate then we can agree to disagree and leave it up to Jesus Christ to judge.
Remember also that a lot of people may say they are Christians, but you will only know them by their fruits. Matthew 7:16-20.
A little info on the Pharisees that Christ states as well that we can ALL learn from in Matthew 15:
7Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
8This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me.
9But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.
I couldn’t agree mor Effel. Attacking those who attack you is such a fleshly thing to do. About the Ark Park, I guess the issue with the moderater and others is the accuracy of the interpretation of Genesis?
I don’t know if people using the park will really be going there for the accuracy of it’s interpretation. I don’t think it will turn people’s hearts away from God or anything. For those who do know Genesis it won’t matter, and for those who don’t know Genesis it may actually get them to look. I mean, if I wasn’t versed in the bible and I saw unicorns at a biblical park I think the first thing I would do is go home and look to see if unicorns are in the bible. At least I would be looking which is more than I would have been doing otherwise. Anyway, intersting article.
Actually, unicorns aren’t mentioned in the bible.
And for accuracy of interpretation, stay away from the false prophet Ken Ham
I know unicorns aren’t in the bible except in an improper translation. I was saying that if I didn’t know that I would want to look it up, which would be more than I would want to do if I didn’t go to that Park.
I am not endorsing the park, I am just saying I don’t see how an improper translation of something like that would cause anyone to fall away.
So – look it up, find that it isn’t in the bible and wonder why AiG is forcing a false image? Ummm…. you may be onto something actually…
Uh… no one is denying Christ because of a bad translation. But because of bad interpretations – like the YEC – they will.
So I have a question and I apologize if it was answered in a previous post or somewhere else on your blog Joel, but what do you believe in? Evolution, creation/old earth and do have reason to believe what you do based on scripture? Just curious, thanks.
Effel – I do not believe that Scripture speaks to the age of the earth. I believe that their is evidence of evolutionary changes over time, but as Collins and Giberson have shown, there are evidences that this universe is fine-tuned to life. I would fall into the Theistic category, although I am not qualified enough to say that evolution is 100% true. I think that it is a valid and ‘proven’ theory which is credible.
Just totally didn’t address the financial issues associated with the water park and how it is paid for. It is a water park though and I don’t believe any tax dollars should be going to something like that, whether it is biblically themed or not.
Joel,
As someone who comments on your site on occasion I can say that I read this thread’s comments, your blog posts, and the AIG posts on their site. Keep at it– I imagine that it can be frustrating to deal with that sort of zealotry, but you’re doing a good job, and it’s beneficial. Testing the spirits helps us to cling to the good and cast out every evil.
Not that it matters (or, even, should matter) what I think. My comments and a dollar will net you about a dollar.
Carry on.
While I am certain that I disagree with a great deal of what you (Joel) have said and how you have responded to others, I am more concerned about how people are responding to you. My previous statement should in no way be understood as me wanting to debate you on any of the topics. I am extremely disappointed that some of those who disagree with you have decided to call you names such as: antichrist, hypocrite, pharisee, etc. So to all who are disagree with Joel’s positions and to those who are shocked by the way he responds, please do not resort to calling this man names. I do not know why anyone responding on this blog would think it is profitable to log on and resort to such hate filled attacks. I am thankful for those who have engaged Joel on these issues and shed some light on the topic. However, I am concerned that attacking Joel’s character is not profitable for anyone.
Pastor TJ Francis
Why am I just seeing this conversation now? I miss all the fun
Yes Craig, you did. hahha How did you get that smiley face?
Sandy: http://codex.wordpress.org/Using_Smilies
Craig=
I =
Thanks! See, we’re proof we can disagre yet get along. : )
Agreed!
Lutherans have fun?
Yep! Here’s the proof!
Joel, I’m afraid you have shown your true character and faith in the scriptures to be very poor. I hope you truly have found Christ as you say and it is not my place to question it. God’s word is totally and completely accurate, including Genesis. As for the ark encounter I suggest you do your research into it; aig is not making a profit off of it, the seperate ArkEncounter LLC owns teh ark and its benefits. Aig will simply design and operate the park much like a moderator for this blog would not actually own it or recieve benefits from it. If you disagree with the message of the park please read Genesis again and to some scientific research into the answers from icr.org and aig as to the assertions of evolution and an old earth. I hope and pray we all here are living our lives for Christ the best we can so please lets get along gentlemen, remember Paul’s words in Romans 14 (the danger of critisicm) and do not harm each others faith with such petty disagreements that do not mean near as much as our relationship with Christ. When we argue and bicker like this in front of the unsaved they see us arguing about how whether the tomato is a fruit or a vegetable wilts they never get to taste the tomato fro themselves because we are to bussy arguing amongst our selves to give them a taste (the tomato being Christ of course, I obviously do not worship a literal tomato (=). Blessings and salvation my brothers in Chirst.
Chase – what makes you think I don’t think Genesis is accurate? I don’t believe that the YEC interpretation is accurate, but I do believe that Genesis is ‘accurate.’ What you and the many others have done is to confuse your interpretation with what Genesis actually says. In doing so, you are not fighting for the infallibility of Scripture, but the infallibility of your own interpretation.
As a ‘business partner’ AiG will indeed make a profit.
Why don’t you yourself do ‘scientific research’ and get The Language of Science and Faith. If you want, I’ll send you a copy. Seriously. Free of charge. Brand spanking new. Yours to keep. But you have to read it.
You also need to read Galatians and Ezekiel. Remember, we have a duty to call out those harming God’s people, even if they are claiming to be God’s people.
hahahah literal tomato!
You should actually take him up on the offer. It’s a good book!
Genesis is written obviously as a historical account like exodus. Interpretation has little place here, in fact I wouldn’t trust human interpretation at all but only revelation and guidance through the scriptures by the Holy Spirit. You yourself spoke of reading the Bible in context. There is no reason, scientific or Biblical, for a Christian not to take Genesis as the literal and accurate word of God as was meant to be taken when the account of Creation was written. Why would God want us to be confused? He doesn’t and he prepared His scripture accordingly so that it is quite simple to understand and easily interpretated by the Holy Spirit (not by human speculation). As for aig getting money becuase of being a business partner I encourage you to read aig’s explanation on the site. They are for lack of better words volunteering to work for the arkencounter, their affiliation is not a beneficial one on the monetary scale. The only way they may possibly benefit with an increase in income is with increased visitation to the Creation Mesuem (since anyone interested from the Ark Encounter will be nearby any way) and even then I may be incorrect.
No, Chase it is not. No single author wrote Genesis, but it was produced to reflect various things.
You said,
Actually, there is. Lots of them. Just because you will not accept the reasons doesn’t mean that it is in fact a non-reason.
Who is confused? You are, perhaps, but not us. I’m not sure you expectations of Scripture, but from what you are saying, you are way off. You need to do some more digging – into a lot of things – but especially the relationship between the ‘two’ groups.
I have read the Bible and Genesis several times in alternate translations (KJV being the infallible in my opinion) and there is no amount of digging into HONEST truth that will take you to an unliteral “translation” of Genesis. Falling back to the “interpretation” defense of your human speculation shows you still don’t understand that there is only one correct “interpretion” of the Bible and that is the way God intended it. Interpet the Bible by power of the Holy Spirit and you will never fall short of the truth. You can tell by the way a book is written whether or not it is meant to be literal or figurative. You say I will not accept the “reasons” and that many exist but you do not give any examples. Please, one reason why I should not take Genesis as literal? Taking a stand on Genesis against the intentions of God in order to allow it to better match “scientific” religion (and yes evolution / old age of earth is a religious and not factual belief) is nothing more than a show of one’s lack of faith in God’s word. Don’t tell me you disagree with the word of God becuase of any other reason than evolutionary teachings, if that poorly based theory didn’t exist you would have no problem with Genesis in the YEC view and would likely embrace it. Don’t allow satan to use our fallible and deceptive human “logic” to turn you away form God’s truth.
Chase, it doesn’t surprise me that you see the KJV as ‘infallible.’ That is another doctrine of demons which people seem to hold to against all Christian Tradition, Reason, and Biblical understanding.
So many people claim to ‘Interpret the Bible by power of the Holy Spirit’. You are just among countless others, with countless opinions.
So you take a stand because you think you need to in order to defeat science? You realize how completely stupid that actually sounds? That’s like a stubborn kid.
I don’t disagree with Scripture (please use the term correctly) because of anything. I disagree with fallible interpretations, many of them relatively new, because they are created by men. Just like YEC was.
Chase, you really are a person depraved of logic and the spirit you think you use as a diviner to interpret Scripture.
Me thinks that Jeff/Enlighted/Ryan guy has multiple personalities
The Jeff/Enlightened/Ryan guy is actually several people representing the Answers in Genesis website.
After reading through this exchange, I can see what Joel is thinking, but his initial claim that the Ark project will take money from Kentucky’s budget is inaccurate. It simply will not add as much as it would have otherwise. A simple understanding of economics is all it takes to figure that out. Unfortunately, he went through so many tangents and logical fallacies since then, I’m not sure where to start.
But I will say this: no matter how right you are (or think you are), you do your side absolutely NO good by acting as Joel has. When you attack another person rather than his argument, you make your ideology irrelevant. You become a troll and your arguments blur together into a mindless shamble of insults. You can have the greatest, most sound logical position in the world, but if you present it amid weaselly analogies like ‘the ark park is a porn shop’ and you refuse to admit any mistakes or misstatements you’ve made along the way, then you may as well be typing gibberish… and you’d probably do better if you did.
Thanks, Jason for the heads up.
I’ve explained my view on this http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2011/06/ark-park-as-porn-shop-claiming-the-ezekiel-mantle-and-aig-doesnt-like-me/
When you take money from the revenue stream, you are taking money. Period.
Does this apply on the personal level also? The gov is nice enough to allow us to deduct charitable contributions (even to religious organizations). So this is money taken from the revenue stream.
Maybe I would say so.
I can only speak for Jeff. He is not associated at all with AIG, other than he made a trip to the Creation Museum several years ago.
Joel is under the delusion that I am posting under these other pseudonyms. I assure you that I am not.
I’m not fluent in English (speaking or writing ), although I understand very well what I read in English. I think AIG arguments are more sound than those of Joel, and AIG responses are more respectful, more Christian, if you want. After this life all Christians must appear before Christ’s tribunal, and we will see who was correct in this discusion. AIG, more than probably.
You aren’t fluent in the Scriptures either. AiG won’t be there, actually, but those who are promulgating the myth will be.
Dear Jeff and Mark
Internet rule #1: DFTT
lol
Hi Guys
It is saddening to see ‘Christians’ being so terrible to one another.
As an advertisement for Christianity, I know that if I were an atheist I certainly would not want anything to do with this religion judging by your behaviour.
Good job Joel, you and your blog are doing a great job at discrediting Christians and what we stand for. I don’t live in the States, and have no interest in the tax implications I however pray that God will show you the error of your ways.
Regards
Jason
Jason – so you stand for a liberal interpretation of the Bible with a focus on eisegesis to boot? You stand for shady business operations as well?
I pray that God will show you the error of your ways.
I think everyone on this post can learn a lession from Michael the archangel;
“Even Michael the archangel, when contending with Satan over the body of Moses, did not bring against him a railing accusation, but said ‘The Lord rebuke you.’” Jude 9
I think Joel can learn from the very next verse;
“But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.” Jude 10
I would also like to comment before things get confusing, that I am NOT Jeff, nor do I think that Enlightened is Jeff. I will take notice that you could not handle two people (three if you count Mark from AiG) showing you the error of your thinking, and this idea ceased when more people started to comment. Interestingly enough the Lord told us; “When two or three proclaim a thing, it shall be the truth unto you.”
Interesting, huh?
Frank – millions of people proclaim Islam. So, I guess that makes it true, huh?
As even Jason pointed out – Jeff et al are the same.
Lying is a characteristic which you find as truth proclaiming now?
And as of yet, no one has shown an error. Well, I’ve tried, but AiG and the YEC crowd aren’t listening.
Thanks, Frank. I was about to call a psychiatrist to help me sort out my multiple personalities. Haha.
Jeff, I’m not sure I meant to imply that you had multiple personalities, just multiple screen names. It is easy to catch because they are the same personality
I’m not Jeff, just so you know.
It can’t be as easy as you think, Joel, because you are wrong. All these others are coming from commenters other than myself.
Joel doesn’t know what he is talking about regarding the Ark Encounter.
Oh yes I do
Do you?
Because you haven’t listened to anyone on this site. The money the Ark Encounter would be receiving is MONEY THEY MADE FOR THE STATE OF KENTUCKY. Without them the money in question WOULD NOT EXIST.
And no, Islam is not true. Admittedly my quote was out of context, and it only applies to a group of Believers. You are a believer right? A Christian? Then humbly accept that your view is not in alignment with the God of the Bible.
So, every business then should get the same tax breaks… Meaning that the state would have to raise income taxes….
Yes, most of your stuff so far has been out of context. I would suggest that you humbly accept what you are doing to Scripture, and it is bad
Joel. Your stubbornness is astounding. Clinging to the idea that taking money from the revenue stream is that same as giving tax dollars in this situation is nothing more than you being backed into a corner with nowhere to go. As I said before, these moneys WOULD NOT EXIST otherwise. They are GENERATED by the Ark Encounter and therefore cannot be counted as giving tax money to religion. The state generates MORE money by having the encounter the same as any other business. But it appears that logic and reason have little place in your world. You also seem to have an artificially inflated sense of your own ability to read scripture. You accuse others of practicing eisegesis when that is EXACTLY what you yourself are doing…how terribly hypocritical. You compromise on God’s Word and a straight forward reading of Genesis. Was it you who claimed that there are two creation accounts within Genesis? If so, that for one is rubbish. You claim to be a Christian, yet you denounce that which you claim to uphold constantly.
Yes, we are aware of your stubbornness and your inability to understand words and trying different words to get to the same concept. It is a shame how you have compromised on Scripture. Your views are of other worst sort.
There are two creation accounts in Genesis, and several more throughout the bible. Now, I understand that you have more than likely spent time reading someone else’s attempt to mesh everything, thereby destroying Scripture, but yes, there are several accounts of Creation in The Hebrew Bible, and sadly, you are standing against Scripture. Shame on you.
How on earth do you glean that from my post. BTW I stand for a literal interpretation of the Bible, not liberal. It seems though that you have your mind up. No matter how logical or well meaning the responses to your arguments, you keep shooting them down.
Don’t flogg a dead horse I guess?
The YEC position is a liberal – I.e., reading into the text something not there – position.
*sigh*
Not every tax that the AE pulls in goes back to them, and it only goes back to them if they pull in enough tourists.
My references to Jude are not out of context, the lesson from Michael I intended to display has been effectively stated from that single verse, as well as the next one that I thought you might learn from.
Since you do not submit your ways to the God of the Bible’s, then I must say;
“The Lord rebuke you!”
(wipes the dust off his feet)
To my brothers and sisters in Christ; comment no more on this blog. This man is a poison unto you and should not be engaged at this time. Remember the words of our Lord and Savior:
“Do not throw pearls before swine.”- Yeshua of Nazareth
Or dear… You’re one of those people. Let me help you out here. You are on the wrong side of the isse, and as Scripture shows, it can be used wrongly against the right.
So, you know, God rebuke you for the damage you are doing, in his name to Scripture and the faith
While we’re on the topic of who’s who, I’d like to point out there’s two Jason’s here. I’m going to update my username in a bit.
Now, as for the debate…
Let me put it this way. What does it matter if the Ark Park gets tax rebates if it leaves the state with more tax dollars in the end than it did to begin with? It doesn’t matter whether you believe in a literal Genesis or not, or whether states should offer any incentives to religious facilities, or anything. This is, forgive my language here, a pissing match. These past few days have been nothing more than an argument over semantics and the technicalities of tax law. Unless you’re a lawyer, who cares? Kentucky is better off with the bolster of taxes. The Ark Park is better off with the greater ability to fund their attraction (which further adds taxes to Kentucky). The visitors who go to the park get to learn a leading theory about the Bible. You don’t pay a cent to something you don’t support. Everybody wins!
Jason, would you support a Mecca Land? With the same tax breaks, of course
Wow Joel, you insight into biblical matters is indeed impressive. Never have I heard anyone state that YEC was liberal.
Well, what would you call it when you are imposing an interpretation upon the text which is not inherent upong the text? If the text isn’t allowed to mean what it meant, then does it have authority? This is what makes the YEC liberal. You guys are taking a position not inherent in the text.
I think that we both would agree a Scripture has authority. I seek to preserve the authority of the first authors. Anything else is liberal.
Ok cool, we both agree that scripture has authority. Being new on the site you must forgive me that I have not had a great deal of time to find out your stance on ceation
Obviously you are not a YEC, but presumably you are a Christian. I would love to know where you stand.
Also, please don’t read sarcasm into my post. English is my second language and I am often told I am too direct.
No worries, Jason. I’ll try to find some of my previous posts, but if you look at the Genesis category on the rit hand side, that ould be a good place to start.
Yes, scripture must have authority, or we will be left to our own devices and that is never pretty
ooops *creation *
[...] Joel and Answers in Genesis go toe-to-toe to duke it our over tax incentives for the Ark Park. Sadly, rhetoric got out of hand very quickly in the comments section. Honestly, RODOFA has a good point about NO tax incentives for ANY business. I like that idea. On the other hand, I fear that Joel’s usual kindness went out the window on this one when he claimed that AIG is lying about the age of the earth. Even if he holds them to be mistaken (which he does) , there is still the issue that they could indeed be correct (which I think they are to some extent). There is a difference between one who is sincerely mistaken and one who knows that he is wrong and continues to teach his error. I’m not sure that we can say that AIG folks know that they are wrong. Whether one holds Young Earth Creationism to be untrue or not, there should certainly be care taken before accusing them of willfully lying. It leaves me wondering what Joel thinks about me. On the other hand, I must say that Jeff (whoever he is) did not add much good to the discussion. Oh well, so it goes… [...]
1) No tax money will be given to the ark except what is given. Get that through your thick skull and leave it alone.
2) You’re right. Scripture has the final authority in the end. We can’t read into what we want. Yet you contradict yourself. Or have you never read “In six days God created and on the 7th rested.” (Paraphrase of the creation account) Or that Christ when confronting divorce directly quoted Genesis, pointing to Adam and Eve as real, literal people?
3) The first amendment states that the government will not seek to establish a religion OR prohibit the free exercise thereof. It cannot differentiate between businesses seeking their rights on the basis of what they believe. A tax rebate is one of those rights.
So please get your facts straight before you assault a legitimate business that does not condone obviously immoral practices as the “porn shops” you compare it to. And even if you’re argument has any legitimate element to it, it is only that the same laws that protect those businesses protect this one as well.
1.) You mean expect the money spent by the City/State on roads and the such and the money pulled from the revenue stream which will be given back to the Ark Park?
2.) Isaiah says that there is no god. Unless you take things in context, you will not be able to read the text. Perhaps you should do more research into Mark 10.6 and no, Christ didn’t refer to Adam and Eve.
3.) No, a tax rebate is not one of those rights. You need to do more research into constitutional law.
Never said it wasn’t legitimate. Adult stores are legitimate too. I said both are equally immoral.
No money will be given except what is given willingly*
Joel, aig is not a shady businesss and is actually very open about their proceedings. On another note you seem to be confused as to how the Bible is meant to be read. A Christian should not read and discern it by human speculation and theory, but by the power and revelation of the Holy Spirit living within them.”If you seek the truth you will find it.” and “The truth will set you free.” are both statements made by Jesus, please listen to the Lord and seek the truth that is His word in Genesis to Revelation. Genesis is literal, accurate, and without need for much “interpretation” (which is the title many Christians give to their excuses for how evolution and genesis coincide). All arguments against a literal account of Genesis have been answered and the truth is jsut waiting for you to seek it and find it. Please take and enjoy the journey, if you have any questions regarding the truth of the Bible or Genesis please do ask and I will glady answer. I’m sure that I am not the only one here who would do so happily!
Chase – you realize that you are reading the bible and discerning it with human speculation and theory, right? I hope that you stop listening to Ken Ham and starting listening to Scripture. It is a shame that people like you are so blinded as to how the bible should be read that you are willing to follow your own ‘revelation’ which is more attuned to following whatever someone else told you it meant.
And yes, you are wrong again when you say ‘all arguments against a literal account of Genesis have been answered’. You don’t like the actual answers so you make up your own. When you choose your facts, you choose your answers. You choose your questions. You are being dishonest with yourself and above all, Scripture. Shame on you for that and anyone you speak dishonestly too.
Joel. You really cannot even see how ludicrous your positions are, can you? More’s the pity. The idea that YEC is a liberal position is a first. It is generally considered a conservative position as it is the one that most closely follows the biblical narrative. You cannot simply claim that there are two accounts of creation in Genesis. Without substantiation, without pointing them out, you are merely hurling elephants and it means nothing. Where are these “two accounts?” Likewise, you merely repeat yourself over and over on the tax thing rather than actually refuting the logic. Meaningless words with no solid reasoning to back them.
It’s not a first. I’ve been saying it for a long time. Turn about is fair play, Skip.
Yes, there are two accounts in Genesis. It’s called chapter 1 and chapter 2. Please tell me you’ve read chapter 2
Some questions I’d like answered by the YECers and AiG. Remember to support your answers biblically!
Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis tell the same story. Chapter 1 summarizes the universal creation, and Chapter 2 personalizes the creation account and centers it around the creation of man. The two are harmonious in their story telling, if you can calm yourself and listen to the Holy Spirit.
‘And God said, “Let us make MAN in our own image, after our likeness; and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, the fowl of the air, and over the cattle and over all the earth and every creepy thing that creepeth upon the earth.”‘ Genesis 1:26
This is God’s decree for the sixth day, notice that MAN is singular and THEM is plural.
See, I know what Joel is getting at. He can’t see the reconciliation of the two Chapters. He sees it this way; that the order by which things are created contradict each other.
He sees; Chapter 1-plants, the heavens, animals, and finally humans
while in chapter two he sees; plants (already in the earth, but not yet sprung up), man, animals, and then woman
The truth is Chapter 2 is correct in it’s order. It was only our suppositions that led us to believe Adam was created on day six. When you flip back to chapter 1 on day three we notice that dry land comes up and then the plants come. Between those two events is where Adam was created. That’s where Chapter 2 tells us it happened. On day six, God’s statement implies that man is already around and intends to make him plural. If you look at it closely it almost looks like a conversation within the Trinity.
‘And [Yeshua] said, “It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make a helper for him.”‘ Genesis 2:18
‘And [The Father] said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness….” Genesis 1:26
Hence all you lovely ladies.
See, the lesson to be learned from the so-called ‘discrepancies’ between chapters 1 and 2 is that men can’t be in the image of God without women. Period. God brought her fourth from man’s rib (Genesis 2:22), were she to be our lesser, He would have made her out of his ankles. If he was to be at her feet, she would have been made out of his cranium.
It also shows that God is a being of ‘Echad’ (Unity not Oneness). It shows that Man was not nor could not be in the Image of God outside an interpersonal relationship with another.
Gee, go figure
Oh dear, Frank.
No, they are not – unless you are forcing the text into saying something it is not – you know, another liberal trait.
Frank, and not only that, you actually insert Jesus? My goodness…. you should be ashamed.
oh, and frank, keep the sexism off my blog.
Oh, and Frank – one more thing. It is clear that even in reading an English bible, you miss the plural use of ‘man’ (note the lack of the definitive article, such as ‘a’) (also, while we are in parenthesis, I hope you aren’t use the KJV). So, again, shame on you….
Frank,
1. Arguing that humankind is created earlier in Genesis 1 is an argument from silence. And an argument from silence is no argument at all.
2. ‘adam is often used as a collective. Check any Hebrew lexicon. Another example would be in Psalm 8. So, your singular followed by a plural doesn’t really work.
II Joe 5:13
Well, Christian – consider yourself moderated. Also, keep facing away. That is what you are doing with Scripture.
All, as the intellectual cowards that AiG are, they have removed the link to this post which of course would prove them wrong on the statements which they have made about me. Shame on them.
Joel. You have got to be kidding. THAT’s what you’re jabbering about? Chapter one and two of Genesis tell about the single creation account. Chapter one lays out the chronological order of the creation events. Chapter two then goes back and fills in detail. When recapping one is not necessarily concerned with repeating the order already established in chapter one. This is a literary device that has been used for centuries and is still used in literature today. The only reason some atheists and compromisers have tried to make an issue of it is that in this instance it happens to be the Bible and they wish to discredit it (but they always fail). This is a kindergarten level mistake, and you think anyone should listen to you regarding eisegesis vs. exegesis? Do you even recognize your hypocrisy and inconsistency in claiming to be a Christian and upholding God’s Word on one hand while slamming it and trying to tear it apart with the other? Wake up.
Skip, I hate to tell you this, but you are destroying the text with you emendations of it. It is a shame that you don’t believe Scripture as you say you do. Compromiser. You are reading the text with human speculation. Shame.
Hi Craig. All these questions and many more have been answered on CMI and AIG. Not doing your research makes you look silly.
Jason,
Way to deflect and appeal to authority at the same time. The point, which you so obviously missed, is to engage the questions, not parrot what someone else wrote.
Jason is a prime example of seeing religion as the ultimate Milgram Experiment.
I have to wonder if that’s how he also treats people new to the faith.
I’d say.
Joel. Wrong, that is you all over. But I can see that only God himself is going to be able to straighten out your extremely wrong headed thinking (and he will, be certain). You must have learned at the knee of such messed up compromisers as Hugh Ross. Genesis one and two are complementary, NOT contradictory. It is obvious to anyone not pre-committed to being an atheist or a compromiser like yourself. Since you obviously hold to the billions of years nonsense, for instance, where exactly do Adam and Eve come into the picture? You do not even recognize that by holding to billions of years before man even enters the picture, you have destroyed the very faith you CLAIM to follow. In your fanciful world, there was death and disease before the sin of man, and so you must therefore claim that God is the author of pain and death, the creation God proclaimed to be “very good.” What purpose, then, for Christ to come and die for us? Why is death declared to be the last enemy to be defeated? I’m really not sure what god you believe in, but it certainly does not appear to be the God of creation, the God of the Bible. Yours appears to be you own fanciful manifestation.
My goodness, Skip… You really are messed up. I am sorry that you feel the need to abuse God in such a way.
Craig unfortunately you guys have made it clear you ignore the evidence provided each time. Judging buy this thread it would be an excercise in futility to try and change you or Joel’s minds.
Everything you guys say has a ‘venom’ undertone so I wish you guys success in finding the truth.
I will not be back as I believe this thread/site is a poor example of how Christians should behave. I say this without being condescending — I will pray that God shows you the error of your ways.
Goodbye
Jason
Thanks Jason, I will be sure to request that Joel moderates you anyhow. Especially given that you have not given evidence of this venom, other than we disagree with your pre-suppositions.
The “evidence” provided is unconvincing and requires eisogetical gymnastics to make work.
The burden of proof rests on YECers and AiG, not on those of us who believe in an older earth. And, as far as I’m concerned, they haven’t met the burden of proof.
Joel. Exactly, thank you for proving my point that you have nothing solid to offer and so you merely make little snide comments and insults. You insult our Creator by claiming he is the author of death and disease, and then vainly try to turn it around to make it into the person who adheres to God’s Word and claims the God of creation would NOT be the author of a world full of death and disease is the one who actually is insulting God? I don’t think so. You merely dodge questions rather than truly answering them. Never even tried to really answer why God would create a world with death and disease prior to man even appearing on the scene and bringing such things upon creation himself by sinning. If death is already a part of creation, why does the Bible speak of it being the last enemy to be deafeated? Why the need for a savior when such things were a part of the original creation and therefore we do not need to be saved from them? You really are self-refuting and it astounds me that you cannot even percieve the contradictions within your own stance.
Skip, there is nothing that we can give you which you will accept. No matter what is said, you will fall back on your own assumptions and violence done to the text and state that it is a revelation, etc… and accuse us of using ‘man’s theories’. Why do I want to argue with you when you don’t even now what ‘God’s Word’ is or actually says.
When are ready for a real conversation, based not on your own presupposition of what Scripture is supposed to say, then let me know. Until then, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, which is, I allow, and unfortunate comparison for the brick wall.
The burden of proof lies with evolution. Creation is not being taught manditorily in our public schools and no one is claiming it to be a fact proven by science. The problem is evolution has erased that line between speculation and religion and let it over to the fact side. The burden of proof lies with the claim that the earth is old, not the self admitted religious view that it is young. Both views are purely religious and they share the same evidences, the difference is how that evidence is fitted into either theory. In my scientific view, evolution is much less likely compared to creation becuase the theory is constantly being adjusted and changed to fit new facts. This is unlike creation, which is generally able to hold its stance with each new fact without the need to change or adjust the theory.
Chase, actually, the burden of proof in the way of science AND religion falls with the YEC crowd. proof has already been given for evolution and a non-YEC view of Genesis, and both are backed up with evidences, historical and scientific. You cannot simply say ‘God says’ or ‘The Bible Says’ and expect that to stand, or I would remind you that every religious group says ‘God says’ and ‘our holy text says’.
You don’t have the qualifications to have a ‘scientific view’ which if you and Ken Ham could admit, would help to lend at least some credibility to your poor assumptions. Actually, if you were to study science, you would note the deficit of truth which you hold in that no, science is not constantly being shifted to fit new views.
Oh, and Broe, it is a more person who has to mine Kent Hovind for quotes. Just saying.
Joel,
I’m not saying this is right, but I can imagine what the responding argument might look like.
1. You’re a Christian, right?
2. If you’re a Christian, then you believe the Bible is infallible, right?
3. If the Bible is infallible, “the Bible says…” is a valid argument:
3a. If X is infallible, everything X says is true.
3b. I’ve shown that X says Y.
3c. Thus, Y is true.
4. The Bible says that God created the world in 7 days.
Thus, since you’re a Christian and you acknowledge that the Bible says God created the world in 7 days, you’re obligated to believe that God created the world in 7 days.
Not that I necessarily accept the premises of the argument, but the form of the argument seems sound. Disagree?
I’ve been a non-regular poster here for some time, have no ties to AiG/etc, and am posting to learn (and out of curiosity), not to defend/attack a side.
Eek– replace “sound” with valid. I was saying that the argument seems valid, even if it doesn’t seem sound. Sorry for the misstep; I didn’t want to be attributed with something I didn’t intend, and thought it best to offer the correction.
I’d say that’s pretty much it. That seems to be AiG’s argument, or the KJV-onlyist argument, or the ‘Women Shouldn’t Preach’ argument, etc…
I of course disagree with it because I don’t think the bible actually says that, nor do I think that the line of orthodoxy extends to Genesis 1, etc….
Um, proof of evolution? So we have been able to recreate it in a lab then? Wow, I missed that story. I would imagine that that would have been a pretty big story in the news.
The truth people is this, both of these theories and many others that are similar are based on one thing and one thing only and that is faith.
You cannot prove any of them. this is why this conversation goes ’round and ’round and ’round.
Very silly actually.
Oh there is absolute truth, make no mistake and the truth is His, Jesus Christ.
And just for the record, I do believe that the Bible is God’s word and per John 1:1, Christ IS the word. Jesus said Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my Words will not pass away. And per Revelation 21:1, he’s gonna wrap it up as easily as he made it.
What kind of God do you believe in that wouldn’t or couldn’t keep His word or couldn’t create this world in six literal days? A wimpy, puny one. Made up by man himself.
Forget about Genesis in this conversation completely. there are many other places in scripture that you can study learn that God is more powerful than we can even imagine and would easily be able to create earth in six days.
My God is the God of Isaiah 40:12 and Matthew 17:20 where Jesus pretty much said moving a mountain is possible with faith and nothing is impossible.
Mediate on this: no one can even see God and live Exodus 33:20.
Also, study why the word Holy is used three times in describing His holiness. Quite surprising and eye opening, really.
God is much, much more powerful and awesome than you give him credit for.
Effel, it is clear you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to Science. Or the Bible
Yep, clear as mud.
Not my truth, Joel. His truth.
Saying that evolution is a fact in terms of giant reptiles turning into birds and apes turning into humans is like saying UFO’s are aliens from different planets. You cannot show me one ounce of proof. Just a bunch of so called evidence that people believe by faith is proof of evolution. You can believe in man’s fallible knowledge, I simply have chosen to believe in God’s infallible word.
Same thing is true that a lot of non-believers wouldn’t believe in God if he was standing right in front of them.
The devil loves to undermine the word of God and His deity, holiness and His creation.
Worship the creation and not the creator.
Doesn’t sound like you read the Bible much, but I would challenge you to take a half hour every day and get into God’s word. Just you and Him.
Hebrews 4:12 – For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart
Effel – it is clear that you are only concerned with your truth as you see it on the god which you want to see. Further, your mischaracterization of science and evolution is dishonest and shows your ignorance of both.
Again, you misunderstand the phrase ‘God’s Word’ but I have no doubt that for you, you understand it all. What you are suggesting is divination, but using Scripture as a Ouija board. Shame on you.
Joel, aka “the brick wall.” Once again you dodge the questions put to you, demonstrating clearly that you have no solid answers. Your claim that I do not know God’s Word and am the one not addressing the issues is clearly a lie, since when you are posed direct questions you deftly duck them and resort to insults and absurdities. You are correct in one thing, this is becoming a waste. I only carried it as far as this because of others who might be led astray by your egregious warping of God’s Word. You capitulate to man’s wisdom rather than God’s, so be it. But I leave you with this. You are far less clever and astute than you seem to think you are. You practice the worst kind of eisegesis and hold to human wisdom rather than letting God tell you the truth. There is nothing I can do to help you, so I will leave God to hold you accountable for your foolishness. If on the off chance we both end up in our Creator’s kingdom after this short life, we can take it up then, if you like, but for the moment I leave you to wallow in your own ego and compromise of our Creator’s truth. So sad.
Skip, I’m not dodging anything but a waste of time. Your liberties with the Text and Reality are disturbing and show that you simply do not want dialog.
I pray that God opens your eyes to the damage you are causing yourself and those around you. I feel for you, because I was once like you. A KJV-O, a YEC, and a few others things that stood between me and God. I did damage to others, although not knowing it – just as you are doing, just as you have things standing between you and God. I pity you. Grace be unto you.
It seems to me that certain “evangelicals” should spend more time praying for and supporting ministries, such as AiG, that minister to people with the Gospel Truth.
Wait? Jesus has come back already, and AiG own the rights to him?
Awesome!
I mean, Jesus is “the Gospel Truth” after all.
Congrats on owning Jesus.
that’s the problem, Rodney – they still think that Scripture is ‘God’s Word.’
What do you say scripture is?
Scripture.
Sandy – for the short answer. Nowhere in Scripture does it refer to itself as ‘The Word of God’. Only one identifiable figure is given that, although prophetic sayings from God are called ‘this is the word of God.’ Will it is ‘okay’ to call it such, I am a conservative in believing that the Scriptures have authority when we don’t place upon it our own cultural constructions.
I must say this blog / site is horribly dysfunctional. I suggest that time be spent checking out the award-winning functionality of AiG’s site: http://www.answersingenesis.org/
*applauds*
[sarcasm]
Award winning, you mean, like the emmy’s? For best supporting actors as playing Christians with Ken Ham?
Come now, Phil. Why don’t you just stay to buying land at orbit. What is really dysfunctional is AiG.
What is “land at orbit?” I think you just made my point
Phil – it is a shame that you don’t know where your email is list – this one and the yahoo.com one. Try paying attention, please.
Award Winning??? HAHAHAHA!!! That’s too funny.
My brothers and sisters; there is something we must understand; the problem with refuting a 7 day creation is not in Genesis 1, rather Christians and Jews who argue it’s validity have a much bigger problem on their hands.
It is written that those with the Seal of God cannot receive the mark of the beast.
What is the Seal of God?
First of all; what is a seal?
The presidential seal is used to sign bills into laws. The seal (like all seals) includes 3 things; a name, their title, and their domain.
So what/where is God’s seal?
Its in Exodus 20:8-11
‘Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shall thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work; you, you, nor they son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor the stranger within thy gates:
For in SIX days the Lord (<- there's his name) made (<- there's the reference to his Title of Maker) the heavens, the earth, the sea and all that in them is(,- check it out! a domain!), and rested on the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed it and made it holy.'
(all parenthesis mine)
As you can see, the whole purpose and reason of being to the Sabbath is in complete reference to the SIX day creation and the Seventh day of rest.
It is also the shield against the mark of the beast. All who adhere to the Six day creation (as God said it happened that way many times throughout scripture) and in remembrance of that, to rest on the seventh day like the Lord did on the first Saturday.
Those who do not believe this are in danger of getting 666 stamped in their forehead. Such as these; keep away! For they are blinded after the lusts in their own hearts and seek god through knowledge.
'Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof; from such turn away.' (2 Timothy 3:5)
ahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahha Frank has lost it.
[...] A Must Read: Craig on Creation, Genesis, and the Patristics Posted on June 17, 2011 by Rod of Alexandria var addthis_product = 'wpp-260'; var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};Joel, Craig, and I have been involved in a conversations with people from Answers in Genesis at Unsettled Christianity. [...]
http://simuliustusetpeccator.com/2011/06/17/the-early-church-fathers-and-creation/
http://thechurchofjesuschrist.us/2011/06/non-literal-numbers-in-the-old-testament/
As we all can see, nobody has changed his/her position as a result of the ideas exchanged in this thread. That’s what makes the young earth/old earth debate so interesting. People on either side scratch their head in wonder as to why the other side is so intransigent. There’s the YEC side, with their particular interpretation of scripture backed up by a small number of science-trained individuals (and a greater number of engineers, it appears) and a bevy of articles by Answers in Genesis, Institute for Creation Research, and other organizations that seem too numerous to count. On the other side, we have the old earth camp, who looks at the data out there in God’s creation without any preconceived notion as to which to accept and which to reject and concludes that all the evidence points to an old earth. They don’t see any legitimate science supporting a young earth.
You can see my bias coming through — but I don’t see what good it does for the young earthers to fling scripture at the old earthers and the old earthers to insult the intelligence of the young earthers. I think die-hard the young earthers are never going to change their minds, because there’s too much riding on their interpretation — a package of beliefs which includes things like how you view the end times, the environment, and politics. Personally, I think the best strategy is to work to limit their number of new recruits.
Regarding the Ark Encounter — if they can ever raise enough money (which seems questionable at the moment). I think it will take off with lots of fanfare but after a few years visitation will drop significantly and the park will fall into disrepair. Perhaps they could add a few thrill rides to keep interest up such as a catastrophic plate tectonics roller coaster and a floating forest log ride.
@chase..
LOL..
Chase – In Genesis 2:14, the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers existed before the Flood, and then the same rivers existed after the Flood. Do you think you should take that as literal also? What is the “plainest” and “simplest” interpretation of the verses involved?
Dang it, Tim!!!! I wish I would have caught that.
dont quote me on this, but Gen 2 is a slightly different literary genre, and to be read differently.
No… Geoff…. no…. haven’t you read? They have the ‘logical’ way to read that too….
hehe.. eye no nuzzink!
Apparently Barry (Lynn) is one of those all-too-common kinds / species called a “hypo-critter.” He doesn’t mind taking taking tax money as “donations” to his 501 c 3 group, http://www.au.org/donate/faqs/ However, he wants to criticize the state of KY regarding a perfectly ethical and legal arrangement with the Ark Encounter.
Now, as to when, exactly, “hypo-critter” was created, we cannot be dogmatic, but we do know, from the text, that his kind was created on Day 6. However, he may have speciated into what he has become after the Fall recorded in Genesis 3
While I may be able to give a justified excuse for that, I’m not sure I want to. I think that Barry shouldn’t be tax-exempt either, especially given the religious nature of his organization.
Ah, now there’s a great discussion point! We may be finding some common ground
No such thing as my truth, Joel or my anything for that matter. Is anything truly ours in this world? After this short life it certainly isn’t. Only His. And I did not or do not claim to understand all of God’s word. All I can do is hope and pray that the Holy Spirit leads me and helps me to understand His word. In terms of truth, there is only absolute truth and I am not suggesting that, I am telling you that based on His word. Not mine.
consider the words of Charles Spurgeon:
“He who would place himself before a fast-moving railway car will be crushed, and would be just as foolish as you who are opposing the Gospel. If it is true, remember that truth is mighty, and must prevail. Who are you to attempt to stand against it? You will be crushed, but let me tell you that when the railway car runs over you, the wheel will not be raised even an inch by your size. For what are you? A tiny gnat, a creeping worm, which that wheel will crush to less than nothing, and not leave you even a name as having been an opponent of the Gospel.
Let all the infidels in the world know assuredly that the gospel will win its way, whatever they may do. Poor creatures! their efforts to oppose it are not worthy of our notice; and we need not fear that they can stop the truth. They are like a gnat who thinks he can quench the sun. Go, tiny insect, and do it, if you can. You will only burn your wings, and die. Likewise, there may be a fly who thinks it could drink the ocean dry. Drink the ocean, if you can; more likely, you will sink in it, and so it will drink you.
Wow…. You really do have a deficit in understanding, don’t you?
Whatever, Joel. Why would you ask me a question you already know the answer to and completely ignore everything I wrote? Lame.
a deficit in understanding based on what?
Deny Him, Joel and he will deny you before His Father.
I’ll be praying for you.
Wait, are you denying Christ? I didn’t know that.