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A United Methodist pastor has the right to determine local church membership, even if the decision is based on whether the potential member is gay or lesbian.
Annual (regional) conferences cannot limit that right or ask the church’s top court to set policy, the United Methodist Judicial Council ruled during its Oct. 27-30 meeting.
“The General Conference is the only body authorized and able to resolve the issue for the Church,” wrote Jon R. Gray in a concurring opinion on one of the October cases. The General Conference is the denomination’s top legislative body and meets every four years.
Court upholds pastor’s right to accept members – UMC.org.
Long story short – a pastor can bar you from joining the congregation based on pretty much any quantifier that he or she wants. At least in the United Methodist Church.
This was based on a pastor’s refusal to allow an openly gay man to join the congregation as a member of the congregation. (Yes, stressed)
My wife and I were talking about this issue last night, on a different matter. Can a congregation vote to exclude someone? Yes, I think so, especially if the church government is such that members have special privileges in deciding the direction of the body. Sometimes, it becomes necessary for a congregation to do so to preserve the peace and harmony of itself. You cannot and should not bar someone from coming to church, but congregational membership is a different story, I believe, especially when the property is (almost) communal.
But, we’ll see how this is played out.
I will say that the Confessing Church movement is ecstatic over this, which almost makes me not so happy about it….
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Joel Landon Watts is a Masters of Theological Studies student with a focus in Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark. His interests include exploring the role of mimesis in human civilization, specifically in the study of religion and media, as well as science fiction and the way in which it has allowed mythology to be explored in light of scientific ideals of the past century. Currently, he is a TA for Old Testament at United Theological Seminary under Dr. Vivian Johnson, Associate Professor of Old Testament. His first book, Rhetorical Strategies of the Evangelist: Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark, is expected to be published by Wipf and Stock early next year. He is currently co-editing a book on moving from Fear to Faith (Energion, 2013).
Joel,
You are so anti-confessing church, but you share many of their beliefs socially. Why>
I have no problem with the Confessing Church movement, if the uphold their original values of returning us to paleo-orthodoxy. Their inclusion of #glennbeckcrazy into their social platforms is stupid, however. (See the article on the post). Further, what beliefs do I share with them, socially?
Um, your traditional views on marriage and being pro-life, and wanting racial reconciliation (which is what they profess to do). I read the glenn beck crazy UMC wing; i thought that was a separate movement.
No, the confessing movement is supporting them.
Further, you obviously do not know my views on so-called traditional marriage or ‘pro-life.’
Oh, okay. I did not know you were no longer a pro life democrat. thats my mistake. i guess your comments on twitter showed otherwise.
Carry on and stay calm.
Again, you are purposely misquoting me and applying to me what you want to. No wonder you have fell for the Tea Party garbage.
Who’d have thought I’d have lived to see the day when “sinners” were no longer welcome in church? Wow.
I appreciate the distinction between attendee and congregation member, but the message that this sends out is that gays aren’t welcome in the UMC. That’s just today. Who’ll be unwelcome tomorrow? And the next day? By the time the potential implications of this decision are played out, the church will consist of whichever family/clique happens to be in power at that time. How does this move serve the ultimate mission of the church? In what way does this ruling perpetuate the day-to-day work of the church and its increase its capacity for bringing people to God? Call me crazy, but I thought that was the whole point of organizing a church…
You’re crazy. There, I did what you said. I’ll let others respond to the rest of your comments
Hey Robert,
On the surface, the amount of power given to a UMC pastor seems scary at first, but how it functions in reality just does not work with Joel’s fears. UMC pastors have bishops and superintendents to keep them accountable.
Part of the UMC theology (this is as an observer and an employee at a UMC congregation) is that there is open communion. Also, there are many UMC congregations that are open and affirming. They are called Reconciling congregation. And there are just UMC churches that just do not care either way and accept you. The ruling is more about political posturing more than anything.
Joel is oversimplifying the situation because he was once used to tyrannical baptist pastors who wield way way way more power. IN the UMC, committees and the lay people run things for the most part.
Rodney, while I appreciate your ignorance of my life, I would ask you to stop the nonsense and answer the questions forthrightly, especially in light that I didn’t imply anything that you place upon me. Your comment is worthless and beneath you.
My apologies if you took my comments personally. I did not mean to offend.
I did answer Robert’s question tho.
I should replace Joel’s name with my own. It works just as well. I have experience in the “free” church where baptist pastors have no accountability at all.
So I am speaking from experience.
I am not speaking about pastoral control of these things, because, as I noted in my post, sometimes it is necessary, but it also, for some, becomes an issue of control.
@Joel,
Im literally shedding tears over your tea party comment. Actually I am not; I have been a dedicated libertarian for almost three years. The TEA party is filled with neo-cons who still want to uphold american empire. But thanks for keeping this conversation classy and rational, as I assume last night’s results have you and your progressive reeling. Watching MSNBC will only make you feel better for so long.
Actually, I think I’m going to watch the old State Television for the USSR.
CNN. Good choice.
But, I don’t want to fall asleep as soon as the TV comes on. CNN is boring.
Actually, Rod, I don’t think you answered my questions at all. My impression from your commentary is that you’re simply a contrarian. What’s that about?
Ok, here goes, The pastor of a church and the deacons,have the right to talk to a fellow brother or sister,who is claiming to be a christian,but sinning where others can see. Like committing adultery , , .first talk to them, like a brother, if they still do it, suggest they confess and repent, and still. if not, they have the right to boot them out of the church, that is if the Deacons or Minister are not doing the same thing… ? and Homosexuality is a sin, according to the Bible… Joel ,tell me if I am right?
Deb, I’m still out on an issue like this to be honest. Of course, this may go to a root problem of congregational membership. If there is an error, and many, many people believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, then that person should be spoken to and worked with, but to what extend do we keep sinners out? Liars? Is their a test for that? Or adultery? Or Lust?
You would be wrong, Sir. I guess I was unaware with your familiarity with how the UMC polity works.
There is a difference how church’s work. Not all congregations have the same opinions on GLBTQ issues. If you read my response, I pointed out that there are groups of congregations that welcome the GLBTQ community. I do not see how that is contrarian. Its just a clarification of differences. No more, no less.
Joel,
you make a good point. What is the point in the UMC “preaching” open communion”but at the same time excluding certain sinners? Its a contradiction. For my money, I think pastors need to exclude the CEOs of the companies that stole millions from investors through fraud. But that’s a different story.
Now, that’s a change I would believe in.
I think that when we start picking and choosing what sins we will allow in and excluded, we run into a problem.
sorry Not deacons, Elders!
That last comment by me was for robert.
I don’t really understand this church membership thing where the church seems to be able to exclude anyone they want to and you have a vote like you are part of a club. At the churches I have been part of anyone can go to church.
2 John 1:9-11 (Amplified Bible):
9 Any one who runs on ahead [of God] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ–who is not content with what He taught—does not have God; but he who continues to live in the doctrine (teaching) of Christ—does have God; he has both the Father and the Son.
10 If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine (is disloyal to what Jesus Christ taught), do not receive him—do not accept him, do not welcome or admit him—into [your] house or bid him Godspeed or give him any encouragement.
11 For he who wishes him success—who encourages him, wishing him Godspeed—is a partaker in his evil doings.
That’s right, Deb, but there is a difference in doctrine and holiness. If we ignore the teaching of Christ, then surely, we are away from God, but if we sin, which John says it would be a lie for us to say that we don’t, then we still have an advocate.
I don’t know how the UMC works, but in the British Methodist Church membership is decided by the Church Council on the advice of the Pastoral Committee. Both are chaired by the minister. Removal from membership can only be done by a formal disciplinary process. Exclusion isn’t something we’d normally come across, but if someone applied to be a member, it would be down to the Pastoral Committee to say if they felt s/he wasn’t suitable (on whatever grounds).
As to homosexuality – well, no, the Bible doesn’t say homosexuality is a sin. It condemns certain homosexual practices, but they are usually withing a given context – so the comments in Leviticus are in a section attacking syncretism and joining with pagan cults. Homosexual orientation cannot be a sin, since it isn’t a matter of choice. Whether that allows for same-sex committed relationship is a big debate among Christians, but the Bible is simply silent on that matter. For a good discussion of the issues, visit http://www.reluctantjourney.co.uk/
For British Methodist Church membership is there an interview, written test, do you need references, a Police check?
Don’t forget the entrance exam, extended fees, all-night vigils and probationary period…
The actual process is very pastoral, it just sounds bureaucratic. Doing it through a pastoral committee means that it isn’t down to one person’s bias or opinion. And the church council is made up of local people, too.
I just came home from a church service where the requirement to be on the church mailing list is that you believe in Jesus Christ, or at least want to learn about God.
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” I just cannot resist this, What Bible do you read? If it is not a sin, why would that passage be in the Bible? Go on and make yourself believe that, I have found out that no matter what the sin, if you feel right in doing it, No one is going to make you understand that it is sinning… I mean if you already live for Satan, He will not bother you… he already has you… woman is made for man and man is made for women, No other way..
Deb: “”Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” You ask which Bible I read. I ask you the same question – you quote from what appears to be the KJV of 1611, which completely fails to capture the true meaning of the Hebrew. Lev.18:22 is usually translated (as in the NIV) as “Do not lie with a man as with a woman” – in fact, it should be “do not lie with men…” – it isn’t referring to a homosexual relationship, but to cultic temple prostitutes.
So, before you fire off so many accusations about my alleged living for Satan, perhaps you should make sure you have the correct understanding of the Bible yourself. You cold make a start by looking at the website I suggest, and especially at the discussion of the biblical material. You might find your eyes opened. Unless of course you prefer to remain in your homophobic world of prejudice against gay people. For the record, I am straight, and married with grown-up children. But I do have friends who are both unquestionably gay and unquestionably Christian. Go figure.
I am sorry I will never come to believe that you can be gay and live an open relationship with a same sex partner and be totally “christian”. even now there are openly gay “ministers” I think they are not called by Yahweh, they are called by “God” but their God is Satan,the great deceiver the Bible teaches that Satan will deceiver many .., I always wondered why the Bible says that many will be thrown into the lake of fire,and few will endure to be saved .you are not saved now, you have to endure until the end and only then you will be saved..we are not told that in church,why? we are told that if we say a little prayer ,we will be saved, sounds so easy, I am not perfect,I pray for Yahweh to Help us all become to live a holy life, without that none of will make it. Yahweh’s blessings for you.
Well, Deb, what you choose to believe or refuse to believe says much more about you than about the faith which you clearly do not completely understand. I’m willing to bet you have never met or talked with a gay Christian. It’s very easy to take dogmatic stances when you’ve never met the real people to whom they apply. You’re refusing to accept them because their faith is compromised by what you recognise as a sin. Well, are you so perfect? What is the sinful state in which you live? An idolatrous materialism, like most of the affluent West, keeping relatively rich by keeping most of the world poor? Did you ever read the prophet Amos? Specks and planks, I fear…
As to salvation, I suggest you read your NT again. Paul talks about past, present and future salvation: justification means “I have been saved”; ‘sanctification means ‘I am being saved’; glorification means ‘I will be saved’. I fear you may be the one who is open to deception, by your own unwillingness to listen to other Christian voices whom you are too quick to reject as ‘deceived’.
I believe that one that is in a Homosexual relationship, can give his ,her life to Yahweh,and be brought out of that sin, “if they truly repent and want to. there are some that do and marry “not each other” and have families and live for Yahweh, I am not perfect,but Yahweh said to live holy,and there is nothing holy about being gay, I don’t hate anyone, I just believe the Bible. I was in a relationship, without being married.. Yahweh put so much conviction on my heart, I had to stop. and I don’t regret it, but you have to want it… sorry, you and I don’t see eye to eye, we never will on this subject. and you do have to endure to the end..I am not rich, either,
What you say confirms just what I said, Deb – this says more about you, and the guilt you felt about your previous relationship, than it does about the faith which you try to explain. I’m glad you believe the Bible – I do, too. The difference between us is decades of study of the Bible in its original languages. What you actually believe is your interpretation of a translation.
” you do have to endure to the end” Yes, we do. Either that is a matter of enabling grace, or you have made salvation and endurance into just another good work.
“I am not rich, either,” Compared to whom? I’m certainly not rich, compared to others in my society. But I am unbelievably rich as compared to large sections of the world’s population. Years ago, a friend of mine served in the Methodist Church in Sri Lanka. When he came home to the UK, he refused to buy a colour TV, and stuck with a black and white set. His reason was that the difference between a black and white licence and a colour licence (then about £40) was the amount most of the families he had worked with had to live on for a whole year. That’s the difference, not the actual cost. So, however ordinary or non-affluent you may feel in your community, you are wealthy beyond the wildest dreams of a significant proportion of the world’s people.