IHOP ‘Awakening’ Continues to Expand

There is no small concern among some of us as the growing gathering in Kansas City at Mike Bickle’s International House of Pancakes Prayer. Lou Engle, the person who calls for martyrdom, is involved as is a growing list of ElijahList (read: Dominionists) participants, including Bill Johnson and John Arnott. Some have said that the infamous Todd Bentley has shown up as well, although not in any official capacity.

Here are a few posts from around the web, with delightful commentary from your humble blogger:

Earlier tonight I watched the first night of special revival meetings with Bill Johnson and John Arnott at International House of Prayer Kansas City (IHOP-KC).  As some of you know, there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit at IHOP-KC that started about a month ago.  And this week, from Monday night to Wednesday, Mike Bickle and the leadership at IHOP-KC have invited John Arnott from TACF (Toronto) and Bill Johnson from Bethel Church (Redding, CA), to come and release their impartation of revival to the KC renewal.

As I watched on the internet (at www.ihop.org), I could sense waves of God’s presence coming through the computer screen, and people are coming up to the platform to testify about how God supernaturally healed them of physical ailments, infirmities, and diseases.  I would recommend you to watch the live webcasts the next two days, because I believe that it is only going to get better and better in the Holy Spirit!  Just check the IHOP website for the viewing schedule. (Here)

‘Impartation?’ As many of you know, or should know, some of these people, like Bill, regularly dispense with the bible – that nasty religious ritual that it is and all – for ‘relationships.’ Of course, if you remove the measurement of Christian Faith and Tradition, you remove any hold on what you think, do, or say in the name of Christ.

The above blogger is obviously sensing something come from the computer screen…but waves of God’s presence? Only if God is trying to push the viewer away from the screen to read the bible.

This blogger believes that we can build up a relationship with the Spirit, absent the Father and the Son, if we speak slowly and pause a lot.

Thanking the Holy Spirit, telling Him (with pauses, slowly) that you love Him. Or talk to Jesus that way – you don’t have to sort out which part of the trinity you’re addressing.

Following Mike Bickle’s use of 2nd Corinthians 13.14,

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2Co 13:14 NLT)

Of course, there is no accounting for exegetical work here, is there?I don’t have to note that the verse doesn’t speak of ‘fellowship/communion with the Spirit’ but rather the fellowship/communion of the Spirit. If they took the time to read Ephesians, they would note that the Spirit pulls us – the Church – together, corporately. But, enough of that for now.

This blogger wrongly associates Acts with ‘awakenings’ and revivals. Not so much. In reality, Acts 2 was the Church’s Pentecost, the festival celebration of 50 days after Passover when Moses brought down the Law. It marked the reality of the New Covenant. Then he looses all credibility when he promotes Bill and John as men of God.

Post By Joel Watts (10,109 Posts)

Joel L. Watts holds a Masters of Arts from United Theological Seminary with a focus in literary and rhetorical criticism of the New Testament. He is currently a Ph.D. student at the University of the Free State, analyzing Paul’s model of atonement in Galatians. He is the author of Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark: Introduction and Commentary (Wipf and Stock, 2013), a co-editor and contributor to From Fear to Faith: Stories of Hitting Spiritual Walls (Energion, 2013), and Praying in God's Theater, Meditations on the Book of Revelation (Wipf and Stock, 2014).

Website: → Unsettled Christianity

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269 thoughts on “IHOP ‘Awakening’ Continues to Expand

  1. Well I am the “blogger” characterized in your last paragraph and felt the need to respond because you clearly did not take time to read my full post and have mischaracterized my stance completely.

    1. I would disagree with your stance that you could not parallel awakenings and revivals with the feast of Pentecost, since there were similar moves of God that happened even after that day. If anything, the Holy Spirit awakened the apostles with the Holy Spirit which resulted in many revivals all over the region both in the Middle East, Africa and Europe.

    2. Let me repost my last paragraph so that your readers can have a better context of what I really said, “Please check out the awakening services yourself to gather your own opinion on this. Bill Johnson and John Arnott will both be speaking today, until Wednesday. I feel it is important to hear what they have to say and then line it up with what scripture says. These two men have ushered some big movements (Bill with Bethel Church and Jesus Culture; John with the Toronto Christian Airport Revival) and hearing their hearts will be important. I believe both men have a heart to be humble and not lead the body of Christ astray but after Lakeland’s poor results under their oversight last year, I do question some of their decisions on how they handled that. That’s all I will say about that.”

    I do not affirm nor reject them, I simply say that we need to hear what they are saying and then line it up with scripture. If it doesn’t line up, then diregard it. I also point out my caution due to their poor oversight of Lakeland last year. To say that I am not credible because I am affirming them shows your lack of contextual reading. That is very disappointing. I would encourage you to not cherry pick specific sentences but at least provide a larger context to your opinions.

    Hope you had a good Christmas. God Bless!

    • If you recommend Bill and John, then you should be questioned. If you really believe that they have a heart, etc…, then you have no real clue as to the Scriptures with which you would see then aligned.

      Actually, I did read your post and I believe everything is as it was.

      The Holy Spirit was given in Acts – not as an awakening or a revival, but as a seal of God.

      • Well then it appears you really aren’t open to dialoging about this, you simply want to state your view and say it is truth. That’s fine, have a great night.

        • Ben, I don’t suffer heretics lightly. Bill Johnson and John, Micke Bickle, and Bob Jones – heretics and evil men. If you believe otherwise, is their a point in dialoging with you? Would you listen to Scripture if presented which shows that the those mentioned are heretics? I doubt it.

          • Polycarp,

            Many thought that Paul, Peter, and even Jesus Himself were heretics…….I would venture to say based on your posts that you would take what Bickle and others have taught out of context and then use Scriptures taken out of context to make them look like heretics….

            According to 2 Peter to be a heretic, false prophet, or false teacher, you must deny Christ…..the men you have listed wholeheartedly follow Jesus………if they teach something in error, then we need to pray for them that God opens their eyes, but not label them a heretic unles they deny Jesus is the Son of God who died to save us all from our sins……

            So unless you can show me in context a single time where any of these men have denied this, then you my friend are the one in error……

            Quit stirring up division, because according to Proverbs what you are doing is something God hates and dispises, not them……

            You are the one giving Christianity a bad name, not them……

            During this awakening sever hundered people have been saved…………a girl I know was cutting herself and going to commit suicide, and now she is the most joy filled passionate lover of God I have ever met…….You shall know them by their fruits……

            Like Ben said we must take their doctrines line it up with the word or reject it, but not label them heretics if they are mistaken about something………

            Have you never made a mistake……….are you perfect……the God I serve has grace for imperfections and mistakes as long as we seek to serve Him……..you are not reflecting Him to well right now…….

            Their fruit is showing God, in this post yours is not…….

            I am praying God opens your eyes….

            God Bless

          • Matt, that is the only place in which someone is describe as a false teacher. Further, we know that in Matthew 7, many who assumed that they were ‘right’ were in fact wrong.

            It is not division to point out that the Christ that these people teach is the Christ of the bible, and in doing so, they have led people from the true Christ. They are not merely mistaken, they are false teachers.

          • It is causing division to call out these men and claim they are teaching a false Christ with nothing to support your claims……If you are going to call someone a heretic and false teacher, then don’t just make claims about people……offer proof…..

            Thus far, you have done nothing more than make hateful claims against a few men and claimed that God is not moving in the student awakening…..

            You have not offered anything that the men teach and show where they are biblically wrong.
            You have not offered any proof to show that God is not moving at these services.
            You have not offered one shred of biblical evidence.
            How are teaching a false Christ?
            Have you spent time at these services to see of God is moving or are you just making a blind claim based on your opinion of these men?
            Have you spent time studying what these men believe?
            Have you spoken to them about it?
            Have you asked clarifying questions to make sure what you think they believe is really what they believe or are you just taking a few statements they have made and not putting them in context?

            If you cannot offer biblical proof where these men teach a false Christ, then you are causing division, and you are the one denying the true Christ by your actions……offer proof or be quite…..people like you who are spending their time attacking other Christians are making the body of Christ look like hypocrites to the world…….If you have proof great let’s hear it and discuss it biblically, if not then why are you being so un Christ Like……

  2. I dont understand your position. I have traveled with Rev. J. Arnot for many years. I have seen the fruit of the spirit in his life. I have seen the fruit of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the ministry. Be careful, the Word of God cautions us to NOT to lay accusations against the anointed of God. These men are not perfect, just working on perfection. Something you may need to work on. The Word cautions us to be careful that we think we are perfect and we stumble.

    • Reilly, I doubt then your ability to see. I would suggest that you read the bible and measure these men and women by it, not buy your thoughts.

  3. The Word of God speaks concerning a great “awakening” preceding Jesus’ return for his body, the church. The Word also speaks of great darkness, the wickedness of men’s hearts. Yet, Jehovah God still finds servants to represent him in the midst of the sin of the nations.
    This spiritual awakening at IHOP is NOT about the men/women whom God is pouring through. Its about our father’s love for the wounded and broken. He came to heal the sick. The few nitely meetings I have been at, I have witnessed first hand prayers of repentance, prophetic words and intercession. Sounds like the work of the Holy Spirit. How does prayers of repentance, intercession and physical healing accomplish Satan’s goals of killing, robbing, and stealing? Might I add, the participants seem to leave the meetings with more passion for Christ, this glorifies Satan how???? Let’s take our eyes off the broken vessels God is using and pray for wisdom for these men/women. Lets AWAKEN the spirit with in us and run to our abba father. Lets let God arise and use whom he knows he can trust.

    • Reilly, you don’t provide Scripture. Don’t you think that that is telling?

      As I have directed others, please follow the tags to other posts where I have examined Bickle and others according to Scripture and let us remember, that Christ says that there will be some who have cast out demons, etc… in His name who He never knew. I suggest you get to know Him.

  4. Please enlighten me how Satan is getting glory from a movement that is leading mostly college aged students into a deeper more passionate intimate relationship with our eternal father Jehovah-God, elohim? These students are leaving these meetings with a desire to abandon materialistic goals and seek Jehovah God in prayer, fasting, and scripture. This is BAD??? As a minister of the Gospel, I have spent the past 25 years praying for God to capture the hearts of the younger generation (college,High School, and younger). Now you are asking me to be concerned about such a move. My concern is that some will be discouraged by the likes of you and abandon God and become critical. Then we end up with more critics and less passionate people for God.

    • Reilly, they are not being led to God – but away from God, away from Truth, away from the Gospel. You speak about things, but have yet to address the issues and have yet presented Scripture. Where is your foundation?

      As I have said, I have presented my work for you to follow and read, and tackle. And yet? You deem that it is necessary to attack. Is that your god?

      • Your posts about IHOP are based on what other people have said and quotes taken out of context…

        Most of what you claim they believe is not really what they believe….you are either flat out lying or you are attacking them without knowledge of the truth….is that the god you serve…

        You ask us for our biblical proof, but you offer none….you give very little biblical proof in your posts, and what you do offer is based on something they don’t believe….

        Then you are arrogant enough to claim that you have all knowledge about what these young people are experiencing in their relationship with God….that is elevating yourself to godhood…i guess that shows the answer to what god you serve….yourself….

        Either prove biblically that they are wrong and of the devil, or you are a pharisee….I ask you don’t send me to more posts, I’ve read many of them already and found your attacks void of biblical proof…..

        In your response to this post, reply with a few beliefs that IHOP believes that are unbiblical and make them a cult….

        Either prove it or repent……

        • Matt, as I have said before, follow the links I have left. The God I serve has declared what you are doing heretical and satanic. I have given more than enough biblical proof, Matt, you just don’t like it. I, and many others, have showed that IHOP is a cult, a sick, baby-killing cult, which preys on the weak minded. I suggest you get down on your knees to repent before it is too late.

          • I have followed the links you have left and they lead to nothing more than you attacking IHOP based on other people’s opinions and beliefs that IHOP does not believe or support….

            If all you have to claim they are a cult is man’s opinions, quotes taken out of context and lies about them, then you have nothing to stand on…

            You have yet to rise to the challenge and offer biblical proof….come on don’t just refer people to links of your opinions….where is your proof….

            The God I serve has declared what you are doing heretical and satanic.

            So now I am satanic, why because I disagre with you….Where does the god you serve declare that, where is your verses….you offer nothing, but then declare that we are false because we don’t offer any….

            I have plenty of verses to offer, but since you are making the claim that they are a cult the burden of proof is on you….again I challenge you…

            Don’t send me to a link I have already read…instead tell me a few of the belief IHOP has that is unbiblical and then back it up with scripture….

            I will be more than happy to label them a cult if you can prove it biblically to me, my loyalty is to God alone, not IHOP or Mike Bickle….

            The problem is you give your opinions with no proof….

            You have given no proof….I do not consider lies, quotes out of context, and other men’s opinions as proof….

            The only Bible scriptures you offer are taken out of context or are about a belief they do not even believe….

            Again your arrogance shines through….So I am weak-minded because I agree with IHOP and think God is moving there….

            I have spent years in study of the word of God, way before I even knew what IHOP was…I have been in ministry for a while, I love the Lord with everything I am, and I desire the truth of the Word of God above all else….

            You know nothing about me or anyone at IHOP, but your all-knowing, so you know they are weak minded….

            You are nothing like Christ….He was humble, you are arrogant and prideful….

            I suggest you get down on your knees to repent before it is too late.

            And offer biblical proof, don’t hide behind links, I’ve read them and they are lacking in proof….I cannot respond to every point in every post, so therefore I am asking you to discuss it here and now, offer proof or repent…

          • No, you are satanic because you do satanic things, Matt.

            Regarding any attempt of Scripture from you – where is it? Follow the links and let me know when you come to something you can refute instead of simply attacking me. I’m praying for you, because I know that God is bringing you here for a reason.

  5. Polycarp, this might be a dumb question, but are you a Christian? This is a first time I’ve read your blog, but it seems that you are just angry Pharisee who wants to rant and rave about anyone you disagree with.

    I’m not a Todd Bentley fan nor not much of John Arnott. I think Bill Johnson seems to get it and like what Mike Bickle is doing. Agree or disagree with them, where is your love? That is what the Bible says we are known by. Most of the early church fathers didn’t have a refined theology (a lot didn’t even understand the concept of the Trinity) but we’re (or I at least hope your not) running around and calling them false teachers and heretics.

    The Holy Spirit is real and powerful and their have been outpourings in the past. I guarantee that God does things bigger than you can imagine. Is this one of those times? I don’t know, I’m not there. But maybe you should focus on sharing the love of Christ with people instead sharing your anger and hostility. I get them impression that if you met Christ himself, you’d be the first to say “Crucify him, that heretic!”

    • You know, the pharisee card is about as old as the race card, the age card, and the gender card. If you would take the time to read the bible, to study it, and to show yourself approved, you would realize that what Bickle and the Bunch is doing is making a mockery of God and combining New Age practices with a pretend Christianity. Read Paul and his letter to the Corinthians or the Romans or to Timothy. Read about the ‘Pharisaical’ command to keep everything in order. My love is towards those poor souls, such as yourself, you are ignorant of the power of God by His spirit and remain blinded by the sin and evil of Bickle and the Bunch.

      Evelyn, I would suggest that you study the bible and measure yourself by it. We are told to test the spirits, to judge false prophets, to turn out the heretic. Now, you may not like this, or approve of a pharisee-like approach, but the writers of the New Testament knew this and believed it. There is no such thing as an ‘outpouring’ like Bickle and the Bunch. It is unbiblical, and only in recent time, can you find it as a method to attract followers, and thus money.

      This is the love the Christ – the same Christ who called Peter Satan and who whipped the money changers in the Temple. Repent, and come to Christ.

  6. Amen, to what Evelyn said….Your words are that of a Pharisee……The pharisee card is not even comparible to race, age, or gender……those things are not bad, as well as are not something you do…..

    You however act like a pharisee, it is what you do, and it is sin…..why do you think Jesus turned over the money changers table…..it is sin…

    Sounds like you are all for attacking others but cannot stand when someone brings you into question……..oh wait…that is the attitude of a pharisee…..you tell people to study the word, but then you don’t use scripture yourself……come if you don’t want the pharisee card thrown, then don’t be on……

    As far as the “first hand” account you offer, this alone discredits you……

    Here is why…..First off, this person is not a true first hand account…..but rather a mom who’s son is involved in IHOP…..

    Second I will address the three issues she raises….

    1. Her son….first note that it is the son who decided to cut himself off from his mother, not IHOP nor the wise council he sought…..unless this mother has a direct quote from IHOP staff telling her son to cut off communication, then this is a mother being upset with her son’s decision….it has nothing to do with what IHOP teaches,

    Mike Bickle has actually preached the opposite…..here is a quote from Mike Bickle….you can view this at http://cds037.da1.hwcdn.net/b8k7w4a8/cds/doc/20090828_How_to_Discern_False_Teachers_and_Cults.pdf

    #5 They dishonor the family unit: Vs. insisting on the biblical priority of the family unit

    1. Cults teach: The children are taught to be more loyal to the leaders than to their
    parents. The women are taught to be more loyal to the leaders than to their
    husbands and the husbands are taught to accept this as normal behavior.

    2. The Bible teaches: The first relational priority of commitment is to one’s
    marriage, children and parents. The sanctity and identity one’s family is far more
    important than the ministry in which they are involved.

    This was taught at IHOP, so that every person who is on staff there or involved in any way will know the beliefs of Bickle and IHOP……

    2. The second issue is about “contemplative” prayer.

    She compares what IHOP teaches to Transcendental meditation…..but IHOP in no way teaches TM……Contemplative Prayer in context to what IHOP teaches is nothing like TM…..What IHOP teaches is taking a phrase or passage from the Bible and studying it as you pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you in all truth….in other words it has nothing to do with letting your mind going into an utter void as this mother says, there is noise especially in the prayer room, there is 25/7 worship with music going on…..

    When the bible says to meditate on the word, the word meditate in the original language means to dwell on repeating the phrase repeatedly…..so contemplative prayer as IHOP teaches is simply taking a phrase from the Bible and praying to God that He would reveal the truth of that passage to you….IHOP never ever ever has encouraged someone to go into a mental void…..

    It is basically praying to grow in the knowledge of God….Eph. 1:17

    So I ask you prove to me biblically that is unbiblical, but you pre-conceived ideas about what you think IHOP teaches is irrellevant….again I say prove it or repent…..

    3. Lastly, she deals with the issue of feeling special because you are called a forerunner……

    They use the term forerunner to describe anyone seeking the heart of God in End Times…..it is not used to describe people just at IHOP….You can be in a regular church and that term could apply to you……it is not about IHOP but about God,

    Second, Mike Bicle has served the churches in his area and has done nothing but bless the church…..he does not try to be someone special, but rather goes out his way to promote the world-wide bride of Christ…..he does not condem people who are not apart of his ministry and he does not believe everyone should be a part of his ministry……he loves the church…..

    So again, I ask you what proof do you have that IHOP is a cult….

    You offer links to someone who is not apart of ihop and claim that their claims are 100 true…..you have blind faith in a mother who I’m assuming you don’t know, but you choose not to believe my statements even though I have personally been involved in IHOP……

    Why do you believe her over me, because she agrees with your pre-concieved ideas….and I do not…

    That way of deciding who is true and who is not is the mindset of a pharisee………

    You hold to your pre-conceived notions over scripture….

    Why should anyone take your word for it…..again I ask where is your proof, not a link to someone else’s opinion……..

    • Matt, as a liar, I would expect to get an honest opinion from you. You are only adding to the delusions of Evelyn. You really should address your comments about SP to SP, on the link I post. Of course, then you might get more first hand accounts of the cultic material at IHOP. Wouldn’t want that, would we?

      The pharisee card is one which is used when someone stands up for the Gospel. It is devilish. Yes, CP is TM, but with a prettier name, as we have seen, but really, try to address her on her blog. I mean, you aren’t afraid, are you?

      Matt, I am praying that you come out of that cult and can turn your life over to Jesus Christ.

  7. So instead of addressing the biblical proof I laid out, you post 2 more “first hand” accounts………….This shows me you care more about man’s opinion than Scripture…….you accuse those who disagree with you as not holding to scripture, but you avoid even discussing scripture when it is presented to you……You are hypocrite…….

    As far as first hand accounts…..I am a first hand account and I could show you many others who do not have a problem with IHOP, but you only believe those who agree with you………

    So let me quickly address these…..the second link is to a person who simply is stating something that is not true….

    This person claims that IHOP teaches that as you pray and encounter God’s presence that presence is a “wooing” of your heart to make you want to pray again and ecounter more of God…..and then he says that they teach this as mind control to make you stay in the prayer room and not leave the ministry…..

    This is false…..IHOP teaches that this feeling comes from the place of prayer…..it does not matter where you pray….your bedroom, another church, or the prayer room….the way you get into the presence of God is through prayer period, no matter where you do it….

    Bickle also teaches in his message about identifying cults that he blesses all of those who leave IHOP and will pray that God uses them everywhere they go…..

    He also helps them leave in any way he can….he teaches that he does not own them and they are encouraged to go where God calls them, even if that is away from IHOP…..I know this FIRST HAND….but since I disagree with you, you wont believe my account……

    As far as the first post…..Mike Bickle did make some mistakes in his past, but we all have, I am glad God is not like you, God has grace and mercy, you have hate and division……You truly are of your father the Devil………

    The Kansas City prophets are not apart of IHOP and Mike has distanced himself from them…….

    Mike does not hold to : Domionion Theology, Manifest Sons of God, Kingdom Now etc…..

    So far your “attempts” at what you call “proof” is built on lies and falsehoods…..

    So again I plead…….where is your proof…..

    Don’t offer other peoples opinions in their first hand accounts, I am a first hand account….

    OFFER SCRIPTURE………..PROVE TO ME OUT OF THE BIBLE THEY ARE A CULT……

    If you cannot then you are spewing hate and you need ot repent…….

    • You post one verse, with your interpretation of it and you think that’s biblical proof? Matt, I have posted various passages, topics, etc… and you return one verse?

      And again, address your problems with their truth with them. You seem to simply dismiss them by saying, ‘Well, they aren’t telling the truth.’ Not much a defense. I suggest, again, you discuss it with them. I mean, unless you know that your truth will be destroyed by their Truth.

      Mike hasn’t distanced himself from Bob Jones or his ilk. That’s a really wonderful lie, Matt.

      Read the others posts on IHOP and we will discuss them – I mean, you have read them right? Matt, you can continue to spew your lies, but in the end, you are standing against God who is calling you from that cult.

  8. Actually I mentioned more than one verse, but I did not offer the references….
    I realize I should have included them because you are obviously not in your word enough to recognize scripture when you see it….

    I used the verses…Josh. 1:8, Psalms 1:2, 35:28, 63:6, 77:12 that all use the Hebrew word “hagah” to describe meditating on God…..this word means to mutter and moan repeatedly…

    That is not my interpretation, but it is simply the hebrew definition……

    So taking these verse with the verses about us seeking the Lord for knowledge about Him and His word, we see the CP in the way IHOP defines it is biblical….unless of course you can prove me wrong…..biblically…

    You condemn me for using only one verse (which I in fact used more) but then you say CM is sinful and is TM….with no scripture at all…even if I only used one verse, you used none and you call that offering proof…..I have said over and over….your opinion is not proof, no matter what your arrogant mind thinks…..

    I have no problem speaking with them about their posts, but I am in the middle of a conversation with you…..

    If you did not want to discuss their posts with me, then you should not have tried to use their opinions as your proof that IHOP is a cult…..

    You have not one single time in this conversation used the Bible and instead rely on other peoples opinions…..where does the Bible say that man’s opinion is infallible….oh wait it doesn’t, but obviously you do not know Scripture, and really could care less about it…….

    I will discuss the other posts after you show me you are willing to address the Bible….as well as address real life…..

    You claim CP is TM, but I offered what Bickle really teaches and showed how those things cannot be TM, you however just blindly claim it is TM with no proof…..

    Even your post about Mike Bickle on CP offers no proof….

    You give quotes from his teaching, but not one single quote you list has him defining what he means by CP…….you simply say he believes in CP and then you say see he is a cult……

    WHERE IS YOUR PROOF……….And again you use NO scripture……

    Prove to me biblically in your response that IHOP is a cult, if it really is, it should not be hard to prove in a short paragraph…

    Why do you continue to offer links to posts that have no proof in them and claim that link is proof…….

    As far a the pharisee card, Jesus was the main one to rebuke the pharisees, was he wrong for doing so because you said that the pharisee card gets thrown when someone stands for the gospel……really…..was Jesus wrong because the Pharisees were standing for the gospel…..

    You are a Pharisee…..pharisees in the Bible held more to their personal ideas than to scripture……your lack of use of the word of God alone proves you are a pharisee……You condemn others using a standard that you don’t hold to yourself…..again that is what pharisees did…..

    You use the heretic card against IHOP because they go against your personal ideas……..oh wait that is the card the pharisees used in the Bible against Jesus because Jesus went against their personal ideas….

    Yeah all signs point to you being a pharisee, not because it is a card I am throwing out, but you words and actions are proving this

    Prove me wrong using scripture, or repent

    • Matt, I love your slander and your inability to read and think for yourself. Until you are able to grow up, why should I talk to you? You write these long, wonderful comments, and visit my blog – which is awesome because you give me hits – and for what? To spend 90% of the time bad mouthing me? Well, that’s not Christian, but it does seem to be Bickle.

      As I have said, and now say, for the final time. You are are welcome to continue a real conversation on the posts in which I have written. We can take them one by one. That’s fine, but really, Matt, grow up a bit. And remember, you wanted first hand accounts – I have them to you. What did you do? Instead of speaking with them, you responded to me and dismissed them as lies. Um…. Can’t handle the truth, can you? Shame on you Matt.

  9. And just to quote you lies based on your opinion, I will quote a reply you wrote on another post about Lou Engle and pluralism….

    And I quote “It’s difficult at best. I believe that they are saying that Lou Engle foresees a theocracy in American, regardless of pluralism….”

    So instead of taking Lou’s words and beliefs directly, you rely on someone’s interpretation….and then you build your interpretation of what that person is saying and then you call IHOP unbiblical and a cult, all the while not offering any scripture…..

    So let me clarify Lou and IHOP’s offical position by quoting from their website…..http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000050149

    “We believe that believers in this age are called to serve Jesus in politics and to help establish righteousness and justice in legislation. We do not have the assurance that all laws and governments will be changed until after the second coming of Jesus to establish His millennial kingdom.

    We Deny that the Church will take over all the governments of the earth before the return of Christ.”

    So Lou and IHOP teach that we should seek God’s ways in voting and politics, but they do not believe that there will be a theocracy, before Jesus returns…

    Get the facts before quoting lies and calling them a cult…..

    • Well, shoot, Matt, their actions and other words sure lead every other real believer to think that they are trying to establish a theocracy. Look up the 7 mountain mandate. Seems to me, that they are saying two things out of one mouth. We call that lies.

  10. Well aside from not addressing the bible verses in my posts and instead of taking quotes from IHOP and Bickle you simply make a claim that has no ground to stand on….A lie is a statement void of the truth….your statement is void of truth therefore you are lying…

    First off, IHOP has nothing on their website about the 7 mountain mandate, and they did not come up with these mandates….you blind try to make it sound as if IHOP is a cult because of this is simply a lie.

    Here a quote from one of Lou Engle’s websites…..http://www.thecauseusa.com/mountainmandate.php

    “In 1975 the Lord showed both Bill Bright and Loren Cunningham that there are seven spheres of influence, or “mind molders” that shape society and hold the keys to global harvest. These spheres of influence can be described as seven mountains and it become known as the “Seven Mountain Strategy.” It identifies the Church, but also Education, the Arts, the Media, Government, Business and Families as the seven mountains that shape human belief systems.”

    As you can see this is about bringing in the Great Harvest of souls….it is not about taking over the world…..it in not way teaches that we will have a theocracy this side of Christ’s return….

    It simply says that since people are influenced by these 7 areas, then if we want to see people saved we need to address the ways they are influenced to present Christ to them….

    In the Bible, David was anointed to be King, a secular position even though he was an incredible man of God. Daniel was promoted into a high ranking government position due to his spiritual gift of dream interpretation. Moses, Joseph, Cornelius, the list goes on and on.

    Scripture is filled with examples of people who were in these other spheres…..

    I disagree with Dominionism that says we are to take over the world and set up the kingdom of God before He comes and then when He comes turn it over to Him….IHOP, Lou Engle, Mike Bickle, and most of these others disagree with this as well…..

    That is unbiblical because scripture teaches that the world is ran by evil until Christ returns, however…

    The goal to be involved in all the spheres of life as Christians to be able to reach more people with the gospel using the very areas that they are influenced by is not unbiblical……if it is prove it to me with scripture.

  11. Corrections to typos, I was typing in a hurry……

    your blind try to make it sound as if IHOP is a cult because of this is simply a lie.

    The quote from Lou Engles sight I left something out…..

    “We believe this is more than the newest buzzword or latest church fad but a genuine move of God that will transform the church and become a powerful, practical strategy to disciple entire nations”

    “In 1975 the Lord showed both Bill Bright and Loren Cunningham that there are seven spheres of influence, or “mind molders” that shape society and hold the keys to global harvest. These spheres of influence can be described as seven mountains and it become known as the “Seven Mountain Strategy.” It identifies the Church, but also Education, the Arts, the Media, Government, Business and Families as the seven mountains that shape human belief systems.”

    As you can see this is about bringing in the Great Harvest of souls….it is not about taking over the world…..it in no way teaches that we will have a theocracy this side of Christ’s return….

  12. here is a long word from andrew strom about the “awekening”

    216.228.183.184
    2010/01/14 at 9:01pm

    Subject: [revival] KUNDALINI WARNING – URGENT – Andrew Strom
    Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 07:57:37 -0600
    From: REVIVAL List
    Reply-To:
    To:

    KUNDALINI WARNING – Urgent
    -by Andrew Strom.

    I just saw the video of Rick Joyner announcing that Todd Bentley
    is back ministering every night at Morningstar in North Carolina
    and now they have so-called “revival” manifestations eerily similar
    to Lakeland. They also announced that they are streaming these
    big meetings every night on their new TV channel – and they are
    greatly promoting the whole thing.

    Now I am a tongues-speaking Pentecostal myself – but can I ask
    a simple question here please? What kind of “spirit” was it
    operating in the Lakeland revival – when the leader and main focal-
    point of the meetings (Todd Bentley) was having an adulterous
    affair behind the scenes? Was it truly the “Holy” Spirit that was
    anointing something so sensual and unholy? And now that Todd
    divorced his wife and married his mistress – are we supposed to
    welcome him back and this “anointing” with him? What is going
    on here? Rick Joyner has been warned very specifically by high-
    level ministries not to do what he is doing now – bringing Todd
    Bentley back into the limelight. And yet it seems he does not
    care. Apparently the “manifestations” are all that matter.

    So what exactly are these ‘manifestations’ if they are seemingly
    at home in such an unholy environment? Are they from God at
    all? (I am talking here about the violent “jerking”, uncontrollable
    laughter, bodily contortions, drunkenness, ‘portals’, strange “angel”
    encounters, etc.) Why do we not see such an ‘anointing’ in the
    Bible? Why aren’t Jesus or the apostles promoting these
    manifestations if they really are true Revival? Why instead do we
    see these things all the way through the New Age and Hinduism,
    etc? Do we not realize that many false religions have their own
    version of “laying on of hands” that results in these very types of
    manifestations? This ’spirit’ is not in the Bible – but it is all the
    way through Kundalini-type Hinduism! Don’t you think this should
    alarm us?

    WHAT is KUNDALINI?

    If you search for Kundalini and Shakti on the Internet, you will find
    that multitudes of people in the New Age and Eastern religions
    still experience these powerful manifestations. Often this is with
    the help of a Guru, who touches them on the forehead so that
    they can experience a “Kundalini Awakening”.

    As researcher Robert Walker wrote in 1995:
    “The meetings which mystic Hindu gurus hold are called ‘Darshan’.
    At these meetings devotees go forward to receive spiritual experience
    from a touch by the open palm of the hand, often to the forehead,
    by the guru in what is known as the Shakti Pat or divine touch.
    The raising of the spiritual experience is called raising Kundalini…
    After a period when the devotee has reached a certain spiritual
    elevation they begin to shake, jerk, or hop or squirm uncontrollably,
    sometimes breaking into uncontrolled animal noises or laughter
    as they reach an ecstatic high. These manifestations are called
    ‘Kriyas’. Devotees sometimes roar like lions and show all kinds
    of physical signs during this period. Often devotees move on to
    higher states of spiritual consciousness and become inert
    physically and appear to slip into an unconsciousness…”

    And as the guru Shri Yogãnandji Mahãrãja wrote:
    “When Your body begins trembling, hair stands on roots, you laugh
    or begin to weep without your wishing, your tongue begins to utter
    deformed sounds, you are filled with fear or see frightening visions…
    the Kundalini Shakti has become active.”

    In China there is a popular Kundalini-type movement called ‘Qigong’.
    When a Chinese Qigong spiritual master spoke in the USA in
    1991, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that many in the crowd
    began to experience “spontaneous movements”. The master told
    his audience, “Those who are sensitive might start having some
    strong physical sensations – or start laughing or crying. Don’t worry.
    This is quite normal.”

    When you see videos of these “kriyas” or other Kundalini-type
    manifestations, you would often swear that you are watching a
    modern “Impartation”-type church meeting. (And I say this as
    someone who believes strongly in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I just
    don’t believe in “alien” anointings infiltrating the Body of Christ!
    There is a big difference between Kundalini and the real Holy Spirit).

    Since 1993-4, I believe a foreign spirit has been allowed to invade
    the church – first through Rodney Howard-Browne’s ministry – then
    Toronto, then the Prophetic movement (which I was part of at the
    time) and on into Lakeland and many other ministries and
    movements. I urge people now to “test the spirits” just as we are
    commanded to in Scripture. Do not let just anyone lay hands on
    you. This is a powerful spirit and it has the backing of a lot of
    big-name ministries. In fact, these men and women are the very
    ones responsible for allowing it to spread right through the body
    of Christ. And one day they will be answerable to God for doing so.

    We are specifically warned in the Bible that the Last Days will be
    a time of “seducing spirits,” false prophets, ‘lying signs and
    wonders,’ and that we always need to watch for “angels of light”
    masquerading as the real thing. Why does the modern church
    not take these warnings seriously? Aren’t we living in the very
    days that the Bible warns about?

    Right now I need to do something that I have never done in such
    a way before. I have never before published a list of ministries or
    movements to watch out for. But this time I have to. This sickness
    has gone on long enough. I urge you to cut yourself off from
    the following ministries and their tainted “anointings” my friends.
    Even though some of these people say “good things” at times, it
    is simply not worth having any involvement with them due to the
    tainted anointing that they endorse or minister in themselves. Here
    is the list-

    (1) Todd Bentley.
    (2) Rodney Howard Browne – the so-called “Holy Ghost Bartender.”
    (2) Rick Joyner or anyone connected with Morningstar Ministries.
    (3) John Arnott & any connected with TACF (The “Toronto Blessing”).
    (4) Peter Wagner of the ‘New Apostolic Reformation’ who claims
    to be head of a worldwide network of ‘apostles’ – who publicly
    endorsed Lakeland and will soon preach at Toronto TACF alongside
    other “false anointing” advocates.
    (5) Mike Bickle and IHOP Kansas City (-I lived nearby for over
    two years – and know how much they are into all this stuff. Mike
    Bickle promotes it in his book).
    (6) Bob Jones – the Kansas City prophet whose ministry is utterly
    tainted by it all.
    (7) Patricia King and anyone else from ‘Extreme Prophetic.’
    (8) John Crowder & anyone connected with “Sloshfest.”
    (9) Bill Johnson of Bethel church, Redding – who says some good
    things but publicly endorsed Lakeland and promotes the “false
    anointing” very strongly behind the scenes.
    (10) Heidi & Rolland Baker of IRIS Ministries – who do good work
    amongst the poor in Mozambique – but who have also carried
    and promoted this tainted anointing for years.
    (11) Randy Clark, Wes & Stacey Campbell, and other key
    figures from the “Toronto blessing.”
    (12) The Elijah List – and almost anyone featured on it.

    Of course there are a huge number of lesser-known preachers
    and ministries who carry or endorse this Kundalini-type “anointing”
    around the world. But I have concentrated here on the most
    influential that I know of. It really is an enormous issue in the
    church. I urge anyone who is a supporter of any of the above
    ministries to really check them out thoroughly. If you find (as I have)
    that they carry or endorse this false Kundalini spirit in the church,
    then please stop supporting them in any way – and whatever you
    do, don’t let them “lay hands” on you!

    I am putting everything on the line to be “naming names” like this.
    But I believe it is that serious. How on earth did we get to the point
    where “kriyas” just like Hinduism are spreading through the church?

    Please forward this email to everyone you know, blogs and boards,
    etc. These people are trying to “relaunch” this whole thing right
    now. Help us get this warning out. To see a video showing “kriyas”
    and other Kundalini-type manifestations, please click on the
    Youtube links below-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyW1UFzS2LY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaNiuRWHZrY

    Please send feedback on this article to- prophetic@revivalschool.com

    God bless you all!

    Andrew Strom.


    YES! – You have permission to post these emails to friends
    or other groups, boards, etc – unless there is something
    different written in the Copyright notice above.

  13. Ok, so again no biblical support……….and Jarrod this has nothing to do with the IHOP awakening……it is about Todd Bently and Morning star………The only way you people who are against this awakening seem to be able to discredit it is by linking it with ministries, beliefs, and ideas that IHOP is not apart of…………….

    Please I ask you get your facts straight before posting or stop lying, whichever is the case you are in error……

    I will use scriptures throughout this post which is something you, Polycarp, and those who tend to agree with you keep failing to do….

    I agree that Todd Bently should not yet be back as a leader, but I do not think you or anyonelse who does not personally know him has the right to sit as judge of whether or not he has repented truly and I definately do not agree withthe false UNBIBLICAL assumption that all those who visited the Lakeland revival were not touched by God…..

    You know how many biblical examples I can give you of leaders in scripture blowing it, but God still moved in the midst of it….

    David – Murder, Adultery (technically rape)
    Moses – Complete disobedience to God (yet miracles still happened)
    Adam – brought sin into the world
    Aaron – help build an idol (golden calf)

    These are just 4 men who God moved in the midst of their sin…….
    And this is before the cross and God’s grace and mercy being made more readily available to us…….
    Where does the Bible say that God cannot move just because someone in leadership sins….

    There were people who went to the Lakeland meetings and truly encountered God because if they were not living in sin and truly loved God then wherever 2 or 3 are gathered together in His name ther He is with them……

    It is an arrogant, prideful, unbiblical, and sinful statement to say that no one encountered God because of Todd…..

    As far as the manifestations and Kundalini…..First off Kundalini is not manifestations……it is a “sacred” spiritual energy that is said to live at the base of your spine….the goal is to get this energy to your mind to release your spirit from you body and mind and have an out of your body experiece in astral projection…

    IHOP nor any pentecostal ministry that I know of teaches this………

    As far as the laying on of the hands……is it biblical

    Acts 19:4-6 Paul lays his hands on people to be filled with the Holy Spirit

    Jesus laid hands on those to be healed. Even though a leprous man was considered to be unclean, Jesus stretched forth His hand in love and touched the leper. The leper called out to Jesus in faith, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean.” Jesus said, “I will, be clean.” The leper was healed immediately. He touched blind eyes and they saw, He touched ears and they heard, a tongue was loosed.

    There are many verse in the Bible about laying on of hands…..

    What about the manifestations……well I will say that a person can fake things and definately will…..at a recent Q&A session at IHOP Mike Bickle even addresses this and agrees that there is fake out there…..but people can fake crying in repentance, does that mean that everyone who cries in repenetance is fake……of course not……

    Just because a manifestation is different does not mean it is unbiblical…..

    Acts 2 tells us that when the Holy Spirit came on those in the upper room, and people thought they were drunk….you do not think someone is drunk because they are speaking another language perfectly…….a drunk man acts crazy…..what were these doing to make people think they were drunk…..

    Acts 7:55-56 we see the Holy Spirit falling on someone a they see a vision…..

    Manifestations are nothing more than your body not being able to handle the presence of an all powerful perfect God….

    Allow me to quote a few things from an IHOP staff member about this….

    “As we have been saying to the students and those participating in the awakening services, an outward manifestation is not a measure of the depth of encounter with the Lord. Some of the most profound encounters in this awakening have come through a simple laying on of hands or a simple prayer, without any physical manifestation in a person’s body. An outward manifestation is no guarantee that a person’s heart is changed and will be different 5 years from now. Thus, as we have been saying to the students, we should seek Jesus and set our eyes on Him, His glory, and His indescribable worth, not the manifestations. The end goal of these meetings are not to do say that we did bizarre physical things with our bodies, but to have our heart transformed into the likeness of Jesus by the power of the Spirit. I’m personally grateful that this has been the focus of both Allen Hood and Wes Hall from the beginning. ”

    The Scripture gives us many different instances where the Lord’s presence caused an out-of-the-ordinary reaction of the human frame. Here are a few examples that come to mind:

    “Daniel 8:17-18: The angel Gabriel approaches Daniel and causes him to tremble and fall flat on his face because he was deeply afraid. Daniel was in a “deep sleep”, but then was stood upright by Gabriel.
    Acts 2:4,13,15: The Holy Spirit falls upon believers causing them to speak in other languages and move and behave in such a way that onlookers thought they were drunk with alcohol.
    Acts 9:3-4: Paul sees a light from heaven, causing him to fall to the ground.
    2 Corinthians 12:1-5: Paul was caught up to the heavens and experienced things that he could not utter.
    Revelation 1:17: John sees a vision of Jesus and falls at His feet as if he was dead. Jesus then lays his right hand upon him. ”

    “But even if somebody is faking a manifestation, what harm is it doing to us? Because a manifestation is not a mark of the Lord’s transforming work in a person’s heart, we should not even concern ourselves with the authenticity of them. For me, wrestling over this issue has caused me to see my own pride in a new way. I’m not part of the Holy Spirit’s police force. The Holy Spirit is a great Teacher that really wants to help all of us walk in humility like Jesus did. He doesn’t need our assistance in calling someone out for “faking it”. Our job is simply to keep our eyes on Jesus. ”

    Until you can show me in the Bible where IHOP is a cult, then You are the one in error, not IHOP………………………

    Why are you having such a hard time offering Scriptures to prove your point…..is it because you have none…..if you do please list them……If not REPENT…..

    • Matt, you are the company you keep. You are the people you support and promote. This is the point that I have made several times. You have been given everything you ask for, but you make and excuse to reject it, and then turn to attack. You are in a cult, and cults teach their people to reject any evidence to the contrary. You ask for it, and when delivered, you reject it as not meeting with what you wanted.

      Matt, you need some help, but until you are willing to discuss the issues then how can we have a decent conversation? Simply because an atheist denies the existence of God and anything else I could say to point him there, does mean that there is no God. So too, simply because you deny that we have given you evidence – scripture, first hand accounts – doesn’t mean that we have. Deal with those issues, and more importantly, deal with those who have first hand accounts with IHOP.

      • Matt, please visit the other sites which I have given you. You have decided not to listen to anything, for some reason. I would suggest that you pray and seek God – not telling him what you want and how right IHOP is, but seeking God. Matt, you have some loyalty issues with IHOP and frankly, you have issues in dealing with the evidence. As I have said, I have provide scripture, on the other posts, and willing to do so – but you don’t want to go and examine those. You have said that you want first hand accounts, I have provide them. There is nothing that will appease you, or help you see the truth. Indeed, Paul is correct when he says that if our gospel is hide, it is hide to those whom are lost.

        When you want to have a decent and honest conversation, you can comment. I urge you to look into these other sites and investigate those people who just a little while ago would have been in your shows, but praise God, He opened their eyes. If you don’t like the Scriptures that I have presented on other posts, fine, but they are what you asked for.

        Matt, I am praying for you.

  14. matt
    you said” Jarrod this has nothing to do with the IHOP awakening……it is about Todd Bently and Morning star………The only way you people who are against this awakening seem to be able to discredit it is by linking it with ministries, beliefs, and ideas that IHOP is not apart of…………….”

    While that comment might stand up with those who don’t know any better it will not stand with me. Mike Just went to morning star this week to share a very important word. Bob Jones and Ricky J were part of the K.C. prophets and Bickle has endorsed Rick on more than one occasion. why do I say all that you may ask. Well to put it bluntly just because everyone functions under a different 501c3 doesn’t mean they are not connected, nor does it mean that they cease sharing a common history . IHOP is very much a part of the prophetic movement as a whole, endorses Bob Jones, Paul Cain William Branham , and yes Rick Joyner and with him by default good ol Todd.

    You said “You know how many biblical examples I can give you of leaders in scripture blowing it, but God still moved in the midst of it….

    David – Murder, Adultery (technically rape)
    Moses – Complete disobedience to God (yet miracles still happened)
    Adam – brought sin into the world
    Aaron – help build an idol (golden calf)”

    lets explore this a bit deeper shall we ? David after raping and murdering suffered greatly and saw the decline of his monarchy ending in the death of his beloved son Absalem . He was never again the king he was before. Moses striking of the rock is his last recorded miracle and in the end he is banned from entering the promised land. Adam should not even be on your list as a Godly leader He committed cosmic treason and brought sin and death physical and spiritual to the earth. All who remain in Adam and do not flee to Christ the last Adam are under the wrath of God and face eternal damnation. we have no biblical evidence of him ever doing any Godly thing after the fall. His story is one of massive tragedy and falls closer in line with Saul than the others. Aaron remained High priest indeed but his pitiful example no doubt aided the haphazard way his sons ministered before God and cost them their lives and is forbidden from entering the promised land as well with His brother. The issue is not whether these guys were perfect or not no one is or was since the fall, The issue is what happened afterward in their lives look at it objectively. Also all these men repented of their errors yet still paid the temporal piper. I have yet to see any of the false prophetic guys repent for their teachings or practice.

  15. First off I will say this again….I HAVE read your other blogs about IHOP and I have seen very little scriptures used……the ones I have seen used were trying to disprove something IHOP does not even believe……The first hand acocunts you offer I have discussed and showed evidence to the contrary, but you have yet to address them……

    I have offered scriptures, you have yet to address them
    I offered quotes from IHOP…..you have yet to address them except for telling me to look up something that has nothing to do with IHOP…..

    I want a decent and honest conversation using scripture as our guide…..Please respond to my posts and not by telling me to look at others…..

    I have provided biblical proof, quotes directly from IHOP, and I am a first hand account myself……..so lets discuss it…..

    Show me in the Bible where CP (as IHOP defines it) is unbiblical
    Show me where the Bible says we will not rule and reign with Christ after He returns.
    Show me true evidence wher Bickle has stood for Manifest Sons of God, or Dominionism, or any of these other teachings…..

    These are just a few to start out on…..why are you avoiding this conversation……
    Discuss it….if you are bold enough to make a claim about IHOP then be bold enough to discuss it with me right here and now…….we will discuss issues in your other posts, but you have not addresses these 3 yet, so I do not want to open up even more until we settle these three….

    You say I refuse to discuss, but look at the reply I have put to you in this post……filled with scripture and points……my posts are long because I am discussing….

    Your posts have not discussion other that telling me to look somewhere else, because you dont have answers……

    Prove it (you have not in this post or any others I have seen) or Repent

    • First, Matt, I suggest you respond to Jarrod as well.

      Second, we will take your three points one at a time, the the first being CP/TM ‘as IHOP defines it’. Show me the biblical proof for such a practice.

  16. Matt

    you said “Show me where the Bible says we will not rule and reign with Christ after He returns.
    Show me true evidence where Bickle has stood for Manifest Sons of God, or Dominionism, or any of these other teachings….

    The bible is very clear that the saints will reign with Jesus at his return and we will live on the new heaven and the new earth with Him for eternity. What the Bible does not teach is that Christ is held up in heaven until we get all the bowls full enough in a tabernacle of David sense. Nor does it teach that Jesus can’t come back until the church is fully unified, nor does it teach that the Church will defeat the antiChrist, but says that it will be given to the beast to kick her teeth in. (paraphrase) Mike endorses william Branham and paul Cain as 2 of the greatest prophets this age has known. William Branham is the progenitor of MSOG, and his brain child paul Cain is also. Bob jones makes no real effort to hide his blatent dominionism. I promise you when I hear the words joels army, new breed, this generation of john the baptist anointing, ect ect I hear a way different thing than you. mostly because when I was in the movement I didn’t know what they were talking about but have since discovered their roots and taken time to learn the language. while its true that IHOP disavows msog it is also true thatthey only disavow parts of it and dont tell you on their denial page what it is about msog they deny. hope that helps. Oh and so you know I am bold enough to discuss it with some of your leadership because I have, and i have relationships with many Ihoppers . My heart is that we worship our Father with our eyes open and do not settle for less. Ihops Christianity is less than the real not more no matter what it promises.

  17. without wanting to spark a serious debate, after reading this entire thread, i would just like to say (if in case you respond again) that I thought you’re arguments were very well laid out Matt. I think scriptural evidence is parimount for any valid thought. Whether you all agree or disagree with him, I applaud him on what I consider a well constructed debate. So, even though I know IHOP isn’t perfect, I think they do a great job in the ministry they are called to and I believe in where they are headed, which is to say, deeper into a biblical understanding of the heart of Jesus. Kudos Matt!

    • So, Joseph, what exactly was Matt good at? When asked for something, and it was given him, he refused to accept it as legitimate. He presented esogesis which most likely was given to him by another, as it is standard fare among IHOP supporters. Further, when he asked for a debate, and I said, sure, why not, he has not been back since.

      I would assume that your presuppositions are like Matt’s, that somehow, contrary to what the Bible says, IHOP’s ‘less than perfect’ status is okay. Again, although they are opposed to the bible and ultimately to Christ.

      Joseph, I will pray for you that God will open your eyes.

  18. Poly,
    First, let me say again that after reading this thread, you really do crack me up! I’ll leave that commitment at that. Secondly, Matt made a very clear point and backed his point with scriptural evidence. If you don’t agree with him, that’s fine. No one says you have to. However, when it comes to the argument that he presented, it was done with what could be seen as a logical and well thought out explanation for his beliefs on the matter with scriptural evidence. You may interpret the scriptures he used a different way but you can’t deny that he used them. I certainly can’t comment completely on why he hasn’t been back (although I think I could take a pretty good stab at it) as I don’t him at all or his reasoning. This is a very very long thread which could presumably get even longer but as I’ve read both matt’s replies and your’s as well, it seems futile to really say any more than has already been said by both sides. I simply would express that perfection is something every Christian should ultimately be working towards. If you are perfect Poly, please speak now. (I prayerfully hope you don’t think you are) If you are not, then “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. Keep praying for me, i’ll keep praying for you. That, I believe is what we are called to do in Christ anyway isn’t it? To pray for one another?

    • On the usage of Scripture –

      Satan and those opposed to the Gospel used them as well, twisting the words of God from the very beginning. I would expect nothing less from those who today would seek corrupt the bible for their own destruction. We but look at the snake, false prophets in Jeremiah, Herod and others in the New Testament who used scripture, no doubt logically, to present an argument which led to destruction.

      This is not about ‘perfection’, Joe, but about being in the will of God and being among His servants, neither of which IHOP is. IHOP twists scriptures, ignoring biblical commands, associates with those who have done worse, and leads people away from Christ. That is not ‘imperfect’ – it is apostasy.

      They are false prophets, and as such, we are commanded to warn others against them. So, I warn you, Joseph, that IHOP is a false place of worship, and know not God.

  19. oh, btw, i’m curious what your view is of Joel Olsteen and his beliefs and practices? (i’m not saying i’m for or against, just curious on your stance)

    • Joel Osteen.

      Joseph, my premise is biblical thought supported by Church history. If we can find it among the early orthodox Christians, I’m all for it, but if not, then it is unbiblical. If someone claims the bible as their foundation, then I will hold them to it.

  20. Thank you Joseph for your kind words. Poly the reason I have not been back is because you refuse to discuss scripture. You claim to hold to the Bible and then ignore all of the scriptural evidence I laid out. Unfortunately you seem to care more about attacking people you don’t even know than actually discussing scripture. I realized that a debate with me will change nothing. Until you allow the Holy Spirit to break down the walls of bitterness, hatred, and pride, you will never listen to the scripture. So I will leave you with the fact that I love you in Christ and I am praying for you. I hope you allow God to reveal truth to you instead of holding to your pre-conceived ideas.

    • Actually, Matt, that is a lie. As I said, let’s discuss Scripture and I have said that many time.

      As you have laid out nothing, there has yet to be anything to really discuss.

      Until you seek God, and leave the false spirits beyond, nothing will help you, Matt. Don’t you see how cultic IHOP is? How false their gospel is? The evilness which they push? And now, it causes you to lie? Matt, you need God and Christ.

      I hope and pray that before the End, you will come to know the One True God which still calls to you.

  21. Poly you may have said let’s discuss Scripture many times, but you never did. I offered many verses and you have yet to discuss them. Your problem is that when someone offers biblical proof against you, you choose to ignore it, and then claim nothign was laid out. Someone I don’t even know came on here and looked at the posts and even said that he saw my points laid out from scripture. You choosing to ignore the Scripture laid out shows your view is unbiblical and wrong.

    So you again sit as arrogant judge of everyone by telling me I am lost. You know nothing about me. I am passionately in love with God, and I seek Him with everything I have. God has set me free from horrible things, and He has my heart. Last time I checked, salvation was through the blood of Christ that made it possible for us to be in relationship with Him, not by whether you agree with IHOP or not. You are the cult leader, by saying those who disagree with you on a ministry are lost and do not know God. You are much more of a cult leader than Bickle is…….

    I am praying for you……..

    • Matt, you are praying to an unknown god.

      No, read the comments – I have said that if you want to discuss, you lay out the first point. We’ll go point by point. Lies get you nowhere. Well, they do, but you really don’t want to go there.

  22. Poly, I will quote points from my previous posts using scripture that you have yet to address, since I am quoting these from my earlier posts with scriptures you would be the one lying saying I offered no points and no scriptures. Again I am still waiting on you to deal with scripture. Stop lying and simply anser the question….

    ” IHOP in no way teaches TM……Contemplative Prayer in context to what IHOP
    teaches is nothing like TM…..What IHOP teaches is taking a phrase or passage
    from the Bible and studying it as you pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you in all
    truth….in other words it has nothing to do with letting your mind going into an
    utter void as this mother says, there is noise especially in the prayer room, there
    is 24/7 worship with music going on…..

    When the bible says to meditate on the word, the word meditate in the original
    language means to dwell on repeating the phrase repeatedly…..so contemplative
    prayer as IHOP teaches is simply taking a phrase from the Bible and praying to God
    that He would reveal the truth of that passage to you….IHOP never ever ever has
    encouraged someone to go into a mental void…..

    It is basically praying to grow in the knowledge of God….Eph. 1:17″

    And then you said I only used on verse so I said this.

    “I used the verses…Josh. 1:8, Psalms 1:2, 35:28, 63:6, 77:12 that all use the
    Hebrew word “hagah” to describe meditating on God…..this word means to mutter
    and moan repeatedly…

    That is not my interpretation, but it is simply the hebrew definition……

    So taking these verse with the verses about us seeking the Lord for knowledge
    about Him and His word, we see the CP in the way IHOP defines it is
    biblical….unless of course you can prove me wrong…..biblically…

    You condemn me for using only one verse (which I in fact used more) but then you
    say CM is sinful and is TM….with no scripture at all…even if I only used one verse,
    you used none and you call that offering proof…..I have said over and over….your
    opinion is not proof”

    So go ahead prove to me biblically that CP as IHOP teaches it is unbiblical.

    • Matt, poor, deluded Matt. The record here is simple. I said we would discuss things point by point, but you must decide the first point.

      Since you have laid out a point, in that you believe that the Hebrew Bible teaches TM based on what others have told you the Hebrew means, I will address that.

      In Joshua 1.8, what does the bible actually say –

      but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it (Jos 1:8 NASB)

      Mediate in this instance means to study, not to become trance like.

      Also, examine then what the JPS says,

      Let not this Book of the Teaching cease from your lips, but recite it day and night, so that you may observe faithfully all that is written in it. Only then will you prosper in your undertakings and only then will you be successful. (Jos 1:8 TNK)

      Now, what were they studying? The Law of Moses, the Torah. Why? Because it was to them the rule and guide of their life. We are commanded in the New Testament to study to show ourselves approved. Is the TM what you are practicing match up to what the New Testament says? Or even the Old? Nope.

      Psalms –

      NAU Psalm 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.

      TNK Psalm 1:2 rather, the teaching of the LORD is his delight, and he studies that teaching day and night.

      NAU Psalm 35:28 And my tongue shall declare Your righteousness And Your praise all day long.

      TNK Psalm 35:28 while my tongue shall recite Your beneficent acts, Your praises all day long

      Psalm 63:6 When I remember You on my bed, I meditate on You in the night watches,

      TNK Psalm 63:7 when I call You to mind upon my bed, when I think of You in the watches of the night;

      Psalm 77:12 I will meditate on all Your work And muse on Your deeds.

      TNK Psalm 77:13 I recount all Your works; I speak of Your acts.

      The word does not mean to ‘mutter and moan repeatedly’ but to study and to think, to recite, the learn, what God has said. It means to muse, to talk over, to understand.

      Further, you should examine the Greek translation of the LXX which matches the idea that this word means to study.

      Matt, I hope you can receive this truth.

  23. Poly, if you want to have any credit in this discussion, you might want to address what I have written, instead of lying about what I said. I never said that the Biblical Hebrew teaches TM. I am against TM, and so is IHOP. I am speaking of Contemplative prayer as defined as taking one passage of scripture and studying it and praying over it for some time asking the Holy Spirit to guide you in all truth of the passage. It is turning reading the Bible into a conversation with God with the focus on one small portion of scripture at a time. This is not TM, nor have I ever said that the Bible or IHOP teaches TM. Now that we have that straight I will address the points you raised.

    I never said that meditate means becoming trance like. A trance is defined as a hypnotic semiconscious state. That is not what I said meditate means. I said meditate is the Hebrew word “hagah” meaning to “moan, mutter repeatedly while thinking about.” This is speaking of dwelling on the passage in your mind by repeating it over and over out loud. This has nothing to do with a trance or anything like it. It is simply thinking about a passage of scripture as I say it over and over in prayer asking the Holy Spirit to guide in all truth. You say it means to study, which is a part of it, but that is not all. The first part of the verse says it shall not depart from your mouth. This involves more than studying it, it involves speaking it with your mouth, but not preaching or reciting, but meditating. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit guides us in all truth, and the Holy Spirit reveals the deep things of God to us, so praying to God about a passage as we focus in on that one passage asking Him to reveal it’s truth to us is the greatest study we can ever do.
    They were meditating and reciting the Torah because it guided their life. Jews actually pray the Torah. They recite it in prayer back to God. But Psalms 63:6 says to meditate on God, same Hebrew word. So it is not just studying the Law, it is all about knowing God more, not just about rules to live by. Again CP IS NOT TM, CP is simply taking one portion of scripture and praying to God asking the Holy Spirit to reveal the deep things of God out of that passage. You have thus far, not shown any biblical proof that it is wrong.

    As far as the verse you quote, not one version of the TNK I can find translates meditate as study. It is always translated meditate. Where did you get your reference for that translation? And again studying includes praying a passage to God and seeking His revelation on it which is CP.

    So I am not the one deluded, my view lines up with scripture perfectly.

    • Wow. Okay, so TM is not CP, because the letters are different.

      Actually, that is ALL of it. What you have is the need to justify your own doctrine – which is not found in the bible – with adding meaning and misunderstanding meaning to the original languages. The TNK I use is the 1985 JPS version. No, Studying does not mean to to seek a super secret revelation. Not one time in Scripture do we have that example. Again, delusions have set in.

      Actually, departing from ‘mouth’ means several different things. You really should study Hebrew a bit better.

      • Matt, what you are describing in properly divination, something we are commanded against. While the Spirit leads us into all truth, you are seeking a method in which you take a passage, and contrary to anything else, you see ‘revelation.’ Scripture does not tell us to do this. Instead, the Apostle Paul lays out plainly:

        All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-17 NASB)

        Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. (2Ti 2:15 NASB)

        Further, returning to ‘meditate’ we find an actually example in Isaiah of ‘meditation’

        NASB Isaiah 33:18 Your heart will meditate on terror: “Where is he who counts? Where is he who weighs? Where is he who counts the towers?”

        TNK Isaiah 33:18 Your throat shall murmur in awe, “Where is one who could count? Where is one who could weigh? Where is one who could count all these towers?”

        Does that look like what you describe for the New Testament Church? No, as a matter of fact it does not. As a matter of fact, only by conjecture and using modern examples can you find your example in Scripture. The one example we have of meditation is one which is not about moaning, but talking and asking questions about the terror/awe.

        Again, you must dwell in Scripture and Scripture tell us to focus on the Word. At no point in Scripture do we see TM/CP except by the lens of deluded folks like IHOP.

  24. Polycarp
    Do you have hemmoroids or a family history of stroke and cancer? Cause their is so much rage and hate boiling in and through your posts. The spirit of offense leads men blindly into raging against the Holy One of Israel.

    Do you know why Jesus weeps over His bride?

  25. Polycarp, i just happened upon this thread. i have no connection to ihop or any other church really. im not much into the whole religion thing. but from reading this, it doesnt seem like you are practicing what you are attempting to preach. you just sound mad and hateful. idk but i dont remember ever being taught that in church as a kid. it just kinda seems like your trying to defend yourself by personally attacking the people who dont agree. i dont mean this disrespectfully. i am only stating what i see.

    • Ryan, I suspect that you did more than ‘just happen’ upon this thread.

      Exactly what am I attempting to preach? A biblically-based Christianity? What is wrong in calling down people who abuse Christianity and others for their own gain? Bickle and the Bunch have their storied past, replete with molestations (Bob Jones, Todd Bentley), false prophecies (every single one of them), and a refusal to stand upon the actual bible (see last parenthesis). There is nothing hateful in doing exactly what we are commanded to do.

  26. @Polycarp

    Wow, calling Ryan a liar when you don’t even know him…that fits with your self righteous attitude…..You are distorting the facts about Bob Jones, I do not support Bentley’s sin, you say all of their prophecies have been wrong but do not prove it….You say they are unscriptural, but base this on false lies you think about them that they do not actually believe. You base your ideas on lies and not proof and scripture.

    Reasons you are hateful and wrong based on this post…
    1. You lie about these men
    2. You offer no grace and mercy
    3. You call people liars you do not know
    4. You make claims, but refuse to give proof (i.e, that they do this for their gain)
    5. You take verses out of context and ignore other ones

    I can keep going, but you get the point….

    You are the most un-Christlike person claiming to be a Christian have ever talked with. You own prejudices, hate, and lies have blinded you to truth. I pray you repent and hope to God you don’t find yourself in hell…..

    • Matt, while I appreciate your insights here, you never did follow up with the last discussion we had when you put out a ‘biblical’ reason for the CP, TM, (?) and I showed you that you were wrong. So now all you do is attack? Is that all that is left for you? Of course, that is not the only time that I have proven you wrong and you ignored it.

      Considering that I can tell how someone arrives to the blog, I would say that Ryan did more than ‘just happen’ to be here.

      You may continue to say what you want about me, that’s fine, but in the end, it is your soul that I am worried about, not whether you like me or not.

  27. @Polycarp

    I apologize about the calling Ryan a liar thing, I was unaware you had the ability to see how people got to your blog. I was wrong in that comment.

    As far as CP, the reason I did not finish up with that conversation is because you continued to ignore what I was saying. Your verses show that TM is wrong. As I showed the definition of TM, it is nto CP. CP is simply taking one passage of scripture and praying to God that the Holy Spirit would come and guide us into all truth of those verses. You did not prove that was wrong….where is the verse that says it is wrong to ask God to guid you into all truth as you study His word? That is all CP is……..TM is an out of body experience that requires quiteness and many other things…..they are not the same thing.

    You have not biblically proven me wrong in anything yet. You have proven things wrong, but what you have proven is not what I or IHOP hold to or teach. Your problem is you are trying to refute something we do not teach to begin with, and you were not listening to me when I explained that. You simply said yes you do teach this, but you offer no proof of where IHOP teaches it.

    I am worried about your soul as well and so is Mike Bickle and IHOP…….. they do not care if you like them, but you are in big danger in attacking a ministry that God is using to see thousands saved.

    • No worries, Matt, I realized how it looked.

      Actually, if you look back, we were discussing a Hebrew word which you used to supplement your idea of CP/TM, to which I gave you the correct understanding, and you never returned.

      Oh, I have no doubt that Mike is worried about my soul, but only to devour it.

  28. Okay, first off let me say, it’s been a while. lol. I was sorting through my internet history and stumbled across what I had written. Was kinda curious what had happened on this thread since and here I am again. Secondly, Poly, i think it’s funny that you go by polycarp. You use to have a link to your facebook page on this website so it always struck me funny that with your personal info to the right, you would still go by an alternate name. So, that is to say, smart change I suppose. I’d like, (for the record) to say that I was not invited to this page, I’ve never met matt, ryan, you, or anyone else from this post. And lastly, I’d like your thoughts Poly on the concept of midrash. (coincedently, it’s very close to what matt is describing) Your thoughts? I’ll leave it at that for now.

    • Joseph, when I started this blog, I limited all contact to the false name, Polycarp, but as time went on, I chose to reveal my real name, but as time went on, I had to introduce myself in real life to fellow bloggers as Polycarp. On my other blog, I use my real name. This one, I sign everything Polycarp, but do use my real name from time to time. You can call me Joel, if you wish.

  29. Sorry about the double post. Just wasn’t sure if this went through or not. Okay, first off let me say, it’s been a while. lol. I was sorting through my internet history and stumbled across what I had written. Was kinda curious what had happened on this thread since and here I am again. Secondly, Poly, i think it’s funny that you go by polycarp. You use to have a link to your facebook page on this website so it always struck me funny that with your personal info to the right, you would still go by an alternate name. So, that is to say, smart change I suppose. I’d like, (for the record) to say that I was not invited to this page, I’ve never met matt, ryan, you, or anyone else from this post. And lastly, I’d like your thoughts Poly on the concept of midrash. (coincedently, it’s very close to what matt is describing) Your thoughts? I’ll leave it at that for now.

    • A Midrash is fine, if it is used to help people understand the Scripture. The best example of a Christian Midrash is the Book of Hebrews, Joseph, and maybe – don’t quote me on this, but Revelation.

      What Matt is describing is Eisogesis.

  30. Is God’s word not alive Joel? I mean, to you, do you believe that only what was originally intended for the people it was originally given to is all that there is? If this is the case, then why even read it at all? It’s merely a historical book of what God has done, not what He is doing or what He will do. However, if God’s word is for all people at all times, then those same words can also apply to situations and people today. Such is the case with what Matt is referring to. This is also the idea of a Midrash. It doesn’t appear that I’m going to change your mind on the subject but I just thought I’d share my two cents.

    • Joseph, application is different than expansion and warping. What Matt and Bickle and the Bunch is doing is warping the word of God to fit their own peculiar needs at the moment. Even a Midrash didn’t do that.

      Midrash is a way of interpreting biblical stories that goes beyond simple distillation of religious, legal or moral teachings. It fills in many gaps left in the biblical narrative regarding events and personalities that are only hinted at

      The Bible is alive, but that doesn’t mean that it changes. What a word meant then is what it means now. Your understanding of Midrash is, as suspected and expected, a bit off, but I have no doubt that you will remain with your own particular understanding because it fits what you believe. What a horrible way to approach the bible, Joseph.

      Matt is under the power of the evil one if he is under the power of TM/CP, that much is assured.

  31. Oh, and Matt is hardly satanic. just an fyi. Though by saying that statement, I suppose you will believe I’m satanic as well. Oh well. lol

  32. Joel,
    As also suspected, you are unwilling to see what God is clearly trying to reveal to your eyes. That is to say, God’s word is alive an active and yes, while it’s meaning doesn’t completely change by any means, it does continue to be applicable to believers today. My view is not warped. I’d say quite the opposite. That being said, I’ll leave it at that. I’m sure as an upstanding man, you’ll be praying for me. As will I with you.
    In Christ,
    Joseph

    • Joseph, a bit conceited are we? I believe that God is trying to call you to Him, which by your defense of a changing view of Scripture shows, you truly need.

  33. Joel,
    If it is conceited to know your Creator and to want to know Him more, then yes, I am. If it’s right to try and help someone have a deeper relationship with Jesus, then I’m guilty. Simply trying to help you brother. I would love if your eyes were opened to something that would benefit you so unbelievably much. You don’t have to like IHOP. I don’t honestly care about that. What I do care about is you learning about another aspect of our God and how He is moving. Simply that.
    In Christ,
    Joseph

    • But, Joseph, what are you trying to help me with? To participate in satanic methods into the church? What you guys are teaching is something not even the Apostles would have understood – you can’t even get Midrash right – and as I have shown, the foundation of your CP/TM is faulty. So, exactly what is it that you think you need to show me? More of the same lies that have come down through the ages?

  34. Joel, you simply are blinded to truth (what you mistake for satanic) I’ll be praying for you as this conversation continually goes nowhere.-Joseph

    • No, Joseph, my friend – you have created your own reality and world and have yet to be able to defend it past the point of emotionalism. Stand on the word of God, or you simply cannot stand.

    • Actually, Joseph, I have. I asked for biblical allowance for IHOP’s TM and once given a Hebrew word for it, I showed that from the Scripture, IHOP’s interpretation is faulty. Further, I have written several posts, basing everyone on Scripture, what I have found wrong with IHOP.

      And all you do is to say ‘experience the changing God’.

  35. actually joel you haven’t. You are without love. Void of it. Much like Paul says, “you are just a clanging symbol”. You are an empty sound. You rejoice in exalting your own theology above all else. You forget that without love, you just speak meaningless words. I’m sorry joel but it truly is as the word says.

    • Joseph, I pity you, I really do. How much you will miss because you are looking down. This is love – to tell you the truth, which I have done. Now, you have a choice, either you can choose to follow a man who makes it up as he goes along, or you can look to God. You cannot do both. Remember, Christ loved as well – and called people satan as well as took to violence. Paul loved, but he called people fools. Love is not easy going; sometimes, Love is harsh. It is only harsh, Joseph, my friend, because your flesh doesn’t want to hear that what is making it happy is wrong. Study the word of God; show me where I am wrong. Or repent, my friend.

  36. the whole word of God testifies to your wrongess Joel but your too blinded to see it. I’ll leave it at that. As for repentence, you might want to consider it yourself. You are as Jesus said, “A whitewashed tomb”.

  37. Take a look at this thread joel. There are hundreds of examples of how you are wrong but refuse to see the truth. I cannot force you to see truth. I can only lead you to it. Enough said.

  38. What I perceive as a problem is again, more for your good then my own. You strike me very much as the type of person who must have the last word. Seeing as this appears to be the case, I might let you have it just so you can feel good about yourself. That’s what this boils down to joel. You feel that by being right, or by having the last say, (much like the commentators you see on tv)you give more worth to your own thoughts. If I’m wrong, prove me wrong by not responding at all to this. I’d love that. Seriously, don’t type a single word in response to this. But I have this feeling like that won’t be the case my friend.

    • Joseph, if you are going to discuss something with someone, try to do so with maturity.

      Or, should I say, all those that think that Mike Bickle is a man of God raise their hands and say ‘I hate America, Mom, and Apple Pie.’

      See, maturity, Joseph.

      If you have nothing to offer where I have been in error, then I can only say that you are under the power of the Spirit, so yield, repent, and leave IHOP behind.

  39. Unfortunately joel, not only did you prove my point, but you did it with a resounding YES. If you want to talk about maturity, how mature is it to constantly refute scripture with your own opinion which is what you did to matt on countless replies above. Honestly, that’s not maturity. It’s spiritual infancy at best.

    • Joseph, I’ve asked for you to show me where I have been wrong, but you retort with meaningless tripe. So, either, in the words of the greatest generation, put up or shut up.

      Which is it? Can you show from Scripture where I have been wrong, or do you seek to play more games?

  40. Hiding behind big words joel? A large vocabulary doesn’t make you estute to the things of God, just fyi. Secondly, I would love it if you would defend yourself with the word of God. I would love it had you actually replied to any of matts answers with scripture but as you didn’t, I see no need to back my point up with more scripture that you simply won’t listen to.

    • Joseph, where did I use ‘big words’?

      Actually, I have defended myself, from the Word of God. You? Not so much. I have other IHOP posts, which I would love for you to populate with your comments.

  41. Let’s look at the fruit of Polycarp:
    Division,mis application of scripture, back biting and falsely judging the hearts of men and the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Creating fear and distrust among the Body and pointing the finger of accusation.

    Brothers and Sisters- take heart their is pride and foolishness bound in this heart. The fruit of the spirit is not evident in his words. A soft answer turns away wrath and from the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The way to silence this foolishness is not to add any fuel to the fire. Its obvious that nothing we are going to say is going to change his mind. its called a stronghold that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and the power of the cross. He talks about jesus but their is no evidence of his relationship or revelation of a conversion with the man Jesus. He is a religious bigot and Pharisee who puts the words of satan into effect. Give him no heed. Its a spineless man who rails against the bride- O Haggai I would love to see your face when the King comes in to see you crouching over his Bride.

    Polycarp is looking to stir dis-unity and create hatred among brothers.
    2 Timothy 3:1-5
    1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves (loves his own thoughts instead of the heart and thoughts of Jesus towards His bride), lovers of money, boasters (he boasts of his great wisdom into the hearts of men but proves nothing but haughty words and firebrand comments), proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving(does not love Bickle,Arrant or Johnson), unforgiving (showing no mercy), slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
    Proverbs 23:9
    Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.

    Proverbs 26:4
    Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.

    Proverbs 14:16
    A wise man fears the LORD and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and reckless.
    Proverbs 14:17
    A quick-tempered man does foolish things, and a crafty man is hated.
    Proverbs 15:2
    The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly.
    Proverbs 15:14
    The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly.
    Proverbs 17:10
    A rebuke impresses a man of discernment more than a hundred lashes a fool.

    • Okay, so to save time and space, just pretend that I am writing to you the same comment, but with your name? See how proof texting works?

      I note that Paul also ‘finger pointed’ and called people down and told us to be on guard and to do the same. Ummm… That Paul, I bet you guys would have attacked him too.

      Friends, when you can come up with something better than proof-texting, and some actual understanding of the bible, please let me know.

    • Wow. I am floored at the level of your comeback, Joseph. The way you handle the biblical texts, digging past modern rhetoric and charismatic creation to get to the heart of the text is simply, well, divine. You have showed such spiritual maturity with this wonderful, and well crafted answer, showing that you have both a grasp on the biblical texts that you have laboriously presented and the ability to deliver said presentation that I simply and speechless. You understanding of Hebrew, Greek, and the Jewish practice of Midrash, and your ability to show that God changes from time to time, depending on the weather, bespeaks well of your educational expertise.

      Granted, you have done nothing but stalled, accused, showed you ineptness for reality, and refused to show any type of proof whatsoever, or understand the rules of discourse, but I am sure that once you manage to come to terms with the fact that you simply don’t have a leg to stand on, you will be a formidable force.

  42. Wow. I am floored at the level of your comeback, Polycarp. The way you handle the biblical texts, digging past modern rhetoric and charismatic creation to get to the heart of the text is simply, well, divine. You have showed such spiritual maturity with this wonderful, and well crafted answer, showing that you have both a grasp on the biblical texts that you have laboriously presented and the ability to deliver said presentation that I simply and speechless. You understanding of Hebrew, Greek, and the Jewish practice of Midrash, and your ability to show that God changes from time to time, depending on the weather, bespeaks well of your educational expertise.

    Granted, you have done nothing but stalled, accused, showed you ineptness for reality, and refused to show any type of proof whatsoever, or understand the rules of discourse, but I am sure that once you manage to come to terms with the fact that you simply don’t have a leg to stand on, you will be a formidable force. See how easy it is without scriptural evidence just to copy and paste things Joel? You should know. You’ve done it for 99% of your posts. Reply “WITH” a scripture to any of the things matt has already said (which you have not and i’m not interested in a link to another post you’ve written that lacks scripture) and then I will reply in kind.-Joseph

    • Joseph, at least you can copy and paste. But, I have replied numerous times with Scripture, and have dealt with Bickle silly notion of TM coming from the Hebrew word. If you can’t read that, how would I except you to read anything else?

  43. I wanted to go back just to make sure I didn’t tell a falsehood like you seem to be inclined to Joel but you used scripture in only two replies to matt. Both were typical examples of Eisogesis. Your scriptural evidence even in the best of cases only serves to answer one small point of your own, this is called straw man argument in case you are not aware since you didn’t really respond to what I said which is also hypocritical since you tend towards attacking me for not responding, not that IHOP is biblically wrong. You are so very deceived. What InSpiritandInTruth wrote, very accurate.

    • Prove me wrong. Don’t just say they are wrong, but prove me wrong. Prove to me that I have a false understanding of the Hebrew Word in Question that I have added my thoughts to it – that is what eisogesis is, you know. (I say this, because you didn’t know what Midrash was). So, prove me wrong, and you will be called a liar.

    • Joseph, with all due respect, if you want to blog, WordPress.com offers the ability for free.

      If you want to continue the conversation, you are more than welcome to.

      • Poly,

        As I have said many many times, CP as IHOP teaches is taking one passage of scripture and praying over it asking God to guide you into all truth of that passage. It is asking God to reveal His nature to you through that passage.

        Where is this unbiblical?

        You have failed miserably to show how praying to ask God to guide you into all truth of a passage of scripture is the same as TM.

        TM involves a trance, CP does not
        TM involves silence, CP does not
        TM involves an instructor, CP does not
        TM has nothing to do with prayer or God, CP is prayer to God
        TM is a 7-step process taught over 4 days, CP is prayer that can be done by anyone and has not steps
        TM involves specific vibrations of the voice, CP does not.

        All they have in common is repetition. But when we sing songs, the songs repeat themselves, is singing songs a form of TM. Of course not.

        CP simply involves praying over a passage asking for the Spirit to guide you in all truth and you read that passage many times. Again where does the Bible condemn this.

        • Matt, you quoted a Hebrew word to support your modern invention. That is unbiblical, especially since what you have stated is wrong. Further, where is the practice of TM that IHOP does found at in the bible?

  44. noticed you deleted the last post i wrote. Wow, incredible maturity joel. Just delete whatever you don’t like. Why haven’t you deleted 99% of these posts then?

      • By the way, I trashed your post, because as I said, if you want to blog, get your own. They are free at either wordpress.com or blogger.com.

  45. I’m just saying, don’t simply delete what you can’t answer or refuse to refute. That’s immature at best. You decidedly must have the last word in all things so simply state that you feel I’m satanic and move on but how sad it is just to delete something that you can’t answer.

    • Actually, noting you wrote which I deleted was a question. It was your own short epistle of ego and self-worth. I don’t allow grandstanding by those who cannot see the forest for the TM. I hope that you stop lying, if you wish to maintain any sort of integrity.

  46. just as a point of reference, I’d like to note that my post joel had nothing offensive of nature in it but simply stated my opinion to all. You deleted it for that. I want you to note this other post that is still on your website: “Polycarp
    Do you have hemmoroids or a family history of stroke and cancer? Cause their is so much rage and hate boiling in and through your posts” Now, seeing as you haven’t deleted this post, I can only conclude that I struck a nerve with what I wrote. Something deep inside of you is fighting against the truth of what I commented. I certainly never said anything close to the above so the question remains: why delete a completely harmless post with my opinion about following Christ but leave the above? My best guess can only be then that you could think of no better response then to delete what you knew was truth.

    • Joseph, what you wrote was a bit off topic and grandstanding. Simple. Try to read the comments that I post. You can say what you want – I mean, you believe what you want, whether or not it is biblical or not, so why not make up your own rules.

  47. Every word you speak joel is an “epistle of ego and self-worth”. Just as I stated my opinion, so is every response you post an “epistle of ego and self-worth”. The fact that you would go through such great lengths to continue debating something of which you have no ground to stand upon testifies to your own “ego and self-worth”. TM is in no way what IHOP is teaching. Honestly, name me 3 reasons why TM is the same as Contemplative Prayer? Seriously, can you? If you already did, just copy and paste your response.

    • Joseph, can you even state the biblical allowance for TM/CP?

      Keep going, I need all the hits I can get. Plus, the more comments, the more that this shows up in Google, so that is awesome.

      • Poly,

        You have yet to prove CP is TM. It shows complete ignorance on your part to think that it is somehow proof that they are the same just because you place the letters together when you write them.

        I have shown how TM and CP are nothing alike.
        I have shown what CP is.
        It is praying that God would guide you into all truth of a passage of scripture.

        Scriptural basis for CP:
        1. Pray without ceasing
        2. Study to show yourself approved
        3. The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth

        So when we are studying scripture, we can pray without stopping and ask the Spirit to guide us into all truth of that passage.

        Again where is that unbiblical? How is TM and CP the same thing? Because you repeat yourself in both. Again songs repeat themselves, is music TM…NO of course not.

        And meditate in Jos. 1:8 according to Thayer’s Lexicon means “to moan, growl, utter, muse, mutter, meditate, devise, plot, or speak”. Strong’s lexicon definition of this Hebrew word hagah is “to [murmur (in pleasure or anger); by implication, to ponder:-imagine, meditate, mourn, mutter, roar, speak, study, talk, or utter”.

        To meditate on God’s Word you think about it over and over, filling your mind and even your mouth with it. Biblical meditation is about thinking, pondering, imagining, muttering, and speaking the Word of God.

        So you are right about studying, but wrong about the fact that is does not mean repetitve “muttering”. It is to study by pondering it while saying it over and over. So add this to the NT where we pray and ask God to guide us into all truth and we have CP…….

        It has nothing to do with TM….If it does prove it.

        • Actually, plenty of people, some of them former IHOP members – which I have linked to when you asked – have shown that TM is CP and CP is TM.

          Pray without ceasing is not CP. You need to study what Paul was actually saying and compare that to the Mirtha prayers which is sorta what CP/TM is.

          Study dos mean reciting passages as magical incantations.

          The Spirit does guide, but nowhere in the biblical texts does that guide come through repeating a passage over and over again.

          You need to come up with better lexicons. Have you consulted with a Hebrew scholar? As I have proved, mediate means to study, not repeat over and over again hoping to get a magical high. No where in the Hebrew can we get ‘repetitive muttering.’ That is pure eisogesis.

          • You say plenty of people, some of them former IHOP members have shown that TM is CP and CP is TM.

            Why can’t you show that they are the same yourself? What you linked to was people who said they were the same, much like you have, but they never showed how………

            I showed several clear examples of how they are not the same, you have offered no proof. You just continue to think that because you and some other people say they are the same, that somehow your words make it true. Where is your proof?

            You have yet to show how praying and asking the Holy Spirit to guide you in all truth of a passage is unbiblical?

            I never said pray without ceasing is CP. I said that CP takes the command to pray and does it in context of studying to show yourself approved and letting the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth. You seem to like to take one verse and ignore the others.

            I am not sure what Mirtha prayers are, can you please give a definition and offer a resource to prove that definition.

            CP is praying over a passage of scripture until the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth of that passage. Again, where is that unbiblical?

            CP is not magical incantations and it is not trying to get a magical high. It is simply prayer. It is asking God to reveal the truth of His nature through scripture. How is that magical incantations? And yes prayer is a part of study, unless you think your mind is smart enough to learn about God apart from Him. The result of CP is not a high, but a deeper knowledge of God.

            Repeating the passage over and over is not CP. CP does not just involve sitting there and repeating the words over and over. The point of repetition is to keep your mind focused in prayer without getting distracted. So when I see my mind is wandering I go back to reading the passage out loud to focus again. Repeating is not the Spirit’s guiding, but it is just staying focused. It is not a trance, it is NOT a formula, etc……it is simply not letting our minds get distracted by what we are going to eat later, or the things we have to do later, etc. Again where is this unbiblical?

            I used Thayer’s and Strongs, two of the most trusted lexicons by scholars. I have consulted a Hebrew scholar.

            Meditate does mean to study. But it involves speaking or “muttering” in Hebrew………It is the Hebrew word “hagah”.

            This word (hagah-meditate) is translated
            Utter – Job 27:4
            Speak – Psalms 35:28 (this verse shows speaking in repetition), Ps 37:30
            Talk – Ps. 71:24 – shows repetition
            Roaring – Isaiah 31:4

            These verses show that this word describes audible speaking. It is not just study, but to study while speaking, or muttering, repeatedly.

            You need to do a little more study. You are using eisogesis, I am using exogesis. I took the word’s definition, looked at other uses of the word in scripture, compared scripture with scripture, and used the phrase right before it speaking of the word not departing from the mouth BUT (a connection word) being meditated on. There is a connection in this verse to the word being in the mouth and meditation.

            You need to study a little more if you want to be able to have any validity in what you say.

            Again, please show me how CP is the same as TM, and please tell me how praying over a passage and reading it repetitively is unbiblical.

            If you cannot do these 2 things, you have no argument.

          • Matt, I regret that I didn’t get to this comment faster – but I have actually do important things, more so than destroy IHOP doctrine.

            Why reinvent the wheel? I mean, you don’t. All you do is repeat what you are told by the High Priest Mike.

            So, you take a command which you don’t understand and mix in something else which produces a result like TM and you think this is biblical?

            Actually, Strong’s is a joke and Thayer’s is okay. Go with Nida. Further, lexicons are only as good as those who use them.

            As I have shown, your understanding is wrong on this word, and if all you do is repeat it (Psalm 71, wrong) what else is there?

            Now, you can continue to spout false and blasphemous claims, but, you are getting nowhere except to prove yourself more condemned.

  48. HAHAHA, I see. So this is a joke right? wow. I should’ve picked up on that right a way. My bad, I mean, I couldn’t understand how someone could fight against something without any reason why they thought it was wrong. Now I see. It’s all about the hit count hmm?

    • No, but it the childish games you are playing on helps to get the message across about the satanic practices of IHOP. So, thanks.

  49. I'm responding to the link that Polycarp put to the sadparent blog on WordPress. I have been here in KC for some time and was a part of the media school. I have never witnessed anything even remotely like what was suggested in the blog. I go home all the time and talk to whomever I please. I've seen several waves on interns come through various programs and I know hundreds of students. the reality portrayed in that blog is simply not true. I tried to post this reality in response to that blog but it was refused. It seems all first hand accounts that refute that account are not posted. Sad that any contradicting first hand accounts are not allowed for the public to see. Makes the claims very suspect. Why would you prevent other accounts unless you wanted the world to only see your version. Now that IS cult like behavior.

  50. I'm responding to the link that Polycarp put to the sadparent blog on WordPress. I have been here in KC for some time and was a part of the media school. I have never witnessed anything even remotely like what was suggested in the blog. I go home all the time and talk to whomever I please. I've seen several waves on interns come through various programs and I know hundreds of students. the reality portrayed in that blog is simply not true. I tried to post this reality in response to that blog but it was refused. It seems all first hand accounts that refute that account are not posted. Sad that any contradicting first hand accounts are not allowed for the public to see. Makes the claims very suspect. Why would you prevent other accounts unless you wanted the world to only see your version. Now that IS cult like behavior.

  51. No, Ross, that is not cult behavior. It is not very honest behavior, but it is a personal blog, that person may not want it on there. But it is far from cult like behavior. Because you haven't experienced it, doesn't make it any less real. More and more people are coming forward. Maybe one day, you will too.

  52. To the author of this blog, polycarp -

    Shame on you. This has done nothing but push people away from the Lord. If your heart were for the Lord, you would not be shouting hateful accusations at your “brothers.” I don't really consider them to be your brothers, as they are of the Lord and you are not.

    Please do not reply as I will not visit this site again.

  53. So, in other words, you come here with an anonymous attack, and think that I should pay you any attention? You provide no scripture, just baseless attacks.

    And you think you are accomplishing something?

  54. Hey Joel!

    I was actually a intern at the International House of Prayer for 6 months July ’09 – December ’09.

    I can testify to the fact that, as weird as the “awakening” was, there was good fruit that came out of it. Many of my friends (fellow interns) were physically healed, and Jesus was being praised. There were also salvations and baptisms that came through the awakening as well. Yes, there are always people who make things very “weird” (like every church, there are always people who attend who do strange things apart from the Word), but all-in-all, it was a very positive experience and I can testify that the Lord was working through many of the things that happened there.

    Blessings brother!

    -Israel Wignall

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