Reports coming from the United Pentecostal Church International, the largest Oneness Pentecostal organziation, indicate that author David Bernard has been elected the General Superintendent, succeeding Kenneth Haney who has fellowshiped with Trinitarian Pentecostals and Charismatics. Bernard was not challenging Haney.
I have to wonder if the UPCI will now move to a more militarant modalist position under Bernard’s leadership.
Joel L. Watts holds a Masters of Arts from United Theological Seminary with a focus in literary and rhetorical criticism of the New Testament. His interests include exploring the role of mimesis in human civilization, specifically in the study of religion and media, as well as science fiction and the way in which it has allowed mythology to be explored in light of scientific discoveries of the past century. He is the author of Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark: Introduction and Commentary (Wipf and Stock, 2013) and a co-editor and contributor to From Fear to Faith: Stories of Hitting Spiritual Walls (Energion, 2013).
Website: → Unsettled Christianity
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very interesting..
Are not all forms of “oneness” doctrine modalist? Emanuel Swedenborg was a proponent of Modal Monarchianism. His was a sort of process form of Christ uniting his human form to the divine. And early process theology. But the true Incarnation is a real lasting union of God & Man: one person, two natures – hypostatic union, and thus eternally God & Man since.
Fr. R.
Fr. Robert, I think if you examine Bernard, you will see that his writings are different than that of say, Dulle, or others. I know of a few Pentecostals who prefer French to Bernard.
I don’t thing Bernard and Dulle theology is different,I will however note the difference is oh lets say one teaches basic math (Bernard) and the other teaches Algebra 2 and Trigonometry(Dulle) but it’[s still math(Oneness doctrine).
But the question is not one of how some teacher defines or explains the oneness doctrine, but what is it’s core and can I say creedal definition? Your own position is not fully modalist now is it? But as you say, and “economy” or economic Trine of God, yes?
Fr. R.
Economic is fine.
For the most part, Oneness creed’s revolve around this:
God was the Father in Creation, the Son in Redemption, and the Spirit in Regeneration
Yes, but even Trinitarians can accept this on the surface. But when we seek to unpack this, it is either Trinitarian, or it is Modalist. The surface recedes into the deeper search and doctrine of God triune, for here God is still a unity in a triunity, which is the Trinitarian God. And Christ is that eternal Son (Logos), from and with the Father…St. John 1:1 ; 1:14 ; 1: 18.
Fr. R.
However, Fr. Robert, what biblical mandate is their to unpack biblical theology and thus add to the words of the Apostles?
Joel,
The mandate is simply biblical exegesis, it is in exegeting or seeking this biblical hermeneutic of the science of interpretation that we seek and find the Apostles Doctrine, etc. So to unpack a scripture verse/verses is simply to look into the grammar and historical sense and reality of the text. This is adding nothing!
Fr. R.
I can understand, Fr. Robert, but I fear that while many unpack it, they restuff it with unbiblical precepts, terms, and ideas.
PS..But in this, we also find the theology of the Church, and the OT Judeo-theology of Covenants, etc. (Acts 2:42 etc.)
Fr. R.
See too, Rom. 1:2 / Rom. 16:25-26.
Finally, Theology is simply the study and doctrine of God!
Fr. R.
New blog posting, David Bernard Elected UPCI General Superintendent – http://tinyurl.com/yamm6el
Joel,
Unpacking a verse or verses is itself that biblical science and discipline, we must use not only grammar but history. That is where we also look, but with great caution. As we can see this is a spiritual enterpise. As in the Reformation itself, God was literally preparing the Church, but the main players came to the fore, but again in time…Luther and later Calvin.
At the end of the first century and into the second, leading to the third it was a Patristic effort Polycarp etc., with Irenaeus and Terullian, to Clement and Origen. Then finally to Holy Scripture itself, but always with the pilgrim Church. Then at least in the West, we have our Augustine of Hippo. All long the way, we have God’s providence! This is our final Judeo-Christian heritage, God’s chosen people, Israel and the Christian Church, and the Holy Scripture! Also, this is always a faith issue within the historic reality.
But we must have theology in both the Judeo and Christian sense. But again now, even the Church (as always) is subject to the Scripture Revelation!
Fr. R.
David Bernard Elected UPCI General Superintendent | The Church of … http://bit.ly/3unyMM
David Bernard Elected UPCI General Superintendent | The Church of …: Reports coming from the United Pentecost.. http://bit.ly/1lKZRa
I Think the issue is not of doctrine as both share the basic fundamental truths, the issue is can Pastor Bernard transcend walls, and boundaries and connect with those who think differently and believe differently? This takes an apostolic apostle, and one who has vision for a present generation and not just the upci.
Paul,
From my experience, I am not sure Bernard is qualified to connect with those who think differently. Perhaps not to his discredit, but to those who come close to idolizing the only real theologian the oneness pentecostal movement has.
Joel,
Is Bernard that theologian.. or do you speak of Jason Dulle?
Fr. R.
I mean Bernard. David has written a few books.
http://www.newlifeupc.org/wp-content/uploads/online-books/oneness/One-Top.html
He, and not French, seems to be the prevailing view.
Whatever else can be said, by theological and historical definition, this oneness work is certainly Modalist, Sabellianism…etc. This can and has lead some to the Unitarian doctrine. If we study Unitarianism, they believe that God alone is One, and thus with this logic alone begun, they arrive that God cannot become flesh-enfleshed. Here the very nature of modalism (God just in a mode) can also be seen as a real weakness from the position itself.
Fr. R.
Please define for us what is an “apostolic apostle”? We had only 12 of those in reality, besides the apostolic delegates (and all in the first century).
Fr. R.
That is well said,I believe Leaders should be able to cross the divide,Even I a die hard Apostolic have a open mind to and do fellowship with Trinitarians and the like.Because thru all the debates about the Godhead,We constantly overlooked the fact that inspite of what history and the Church has said.The scriptures are crystal clear about God and our instruction on not focusing to much on that equality within God or for some who might not like the phrase within God,I’ll say about God.All we really need to know when discussing the nature of God is that there is just one God our Father and one Lord Jesus Christ who is I might add ,the radiance of God’s Glory and the express,manifest,visible,exact representation image of HIS hypostasis and anything else is extra emphasis on scripture that simply isn’t there. I am not a theologian or scholar I am a regular old fashion christian with God given common sense. In parting always remember a Son(man) was born,but God came Himself…
I am consistantly amazed how trinitarians discuss OP’s as if they really know or understand.You can’t understand as long as you believe there are three distinct hypostasis in the one God’s Hypostasis, I am no theologian just a regular old Christian who was raised apostolic. As I understand the proper term for Godhead as Deity or Divine Essense .I would be hard press to believe the writers of scriptures envisioned three beings in God’s hypostasis ,especially since they made it clear that Jesus was the express image of the Divine Essence visible to man. I have studied the Trinity from the time I was 15 up to now at 41.The History books stated that it is not taught in scripture even better the scriptures say it not taught.The notion that its one person of the Father one person of the Son and one person of the Holy spirit in the Nature called God is completly absurd and quite frankly inappropriate to describe the Judao Christian God .
I ask you Trinitarians to riddle me this “If as your theology states that God the Son the second person of the triune God (I cringe everytime I say and at the thought TRiune God) became man Jesus Christ the son of God and still be one person,Why is it hard to see the unipersonal God himself became man Jesus Christ and be one person one God one man.
What do you people say when Christ say it’s the Father in me that doith the work when you proclaimed it was God the Son and not just God himself that became man.
Alan, I was raised Oneness.
Let me ask you a question – did the Father die on the Cross?
I am a born again believer of 2 years, not upc, or any denomination. I am a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ… I study and pray and meditate day and night… Of course the Father didnt die on the cross, neither did GOD THE SON, ( GOD CANT DIE ) because then GOD DIED ON THE CROSS… AND WHEN JESUS SAID ELI ELI LAMA SABACHTHANI …MY GOD MY GOD ….. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ‘GOD’ ASKING ”GOD”, ”GOD” WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ”GOD” ??? GOD IS THE ETERNAL SPIRIT THAT WAS IN THAT BODY… TRINITARIANS SAY GOD TURNED HIS BACK ON HIM… GODS A SPIRIT AND HAD NO BACK TO TURN, NOT TO MENTION HE IS EVERYWHERE AT ONCE, NOT IN ONE PLACE… . THEY HAVE NATURAL SIGHT ( 1 COR. 2:14 ) ( 2ND COR 4:3 &4 ) THE FLESH DIED. ( JOHN 6:63 ) GOD WITHDREW HIS SPIRIT FROM THE SON OF MAN ( 2ND COR. 5:19 ) I WISH I HAD MY BIBLE WITH ME, THERE IS SO MUCH MORE TO BE SAID, BUT FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME BROTHER E MAIL hghosttaught@yahoo.com THOMAS IS MY NAME… THINK ABOUT THIS… JESUS INHERITED HIS NAME FROM HIS FATHER, THAT IS WHY HE WAS ABLE TO SAY IN JOHN 5;43 I COME IN MY FATHERS NAME… HE HAD GODS NAME BY INHERITANCE.( HEBREWS 1:4) OUR GOD, WHO IS SPIRIT, AND HAD NO BLOOD TO SHED, CAME IN A BODY AND SAVED US ALL BY HIMSELF… NO CO- EQUAL STUFF… THE SON SAID, MY FATHER IS ”GREATER” THAN I ??? HE WAS SAYING THE SPIRIT IS GREATER THAN THE FLESH.. IT WAS THE SPIRIT THAT DONE THE WORK, NOT THE FLESH… GOD WAS IN CHRIST… RECONCILING US TO HIM. NOTICE ALL OVER ISAIAH 40 41 42 43… I AM YOUR REDEEMER, I AM YOUR CREATOR, I AM YOUR SAVIOUR, THERE IS NONE BESIDES ME… I CREATED THE HEAVENS BY MY SELF, NOT WE CREATED, NO US… HOW CAN YOU CLAIM TO DO SOMETHING BY YOURSELF, AND HAVE SOME ONE WITH YOU THAT CO EXIST WITH YOU ??? IT WOULD BE WE !!! JESUS ..ETERNAL SON ??? LOOK UP ETERNAL FRIEND… NOT CHANGING, NO BEGINNING, NO ENDING, CONTINUAL !!! HE DIED !!! THAT IS A BIG STOP !!! JESUS SAID ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME ON HEAVEN AND EARTH… LEAVES FATHER AND HOLY GHOST PEOPLE POWERLESS THE SON HAS IT ALL… HOLY GHOST PERSON OVERSHADOWED MARY, HOW IS THE FATHER PERSON THE FATHER AT ALL ??? THE HOLY GHOST IS THE DAD… LUKE 22:69 RIGHT HAND OF POWER !!! GOD BROUGHT SALVATION TO US ALL BY HIMSELF, WITH HIS OWN ARM ( THE BODY HE PREPARED FOR HIS SPIRIT TO DWELL IN ) HIS OWN ARM ISA. 53:1 BROTHER THE ARM OF THE LORD HASNT BEEN REVEALED TO YOU… THE CATHOLICS MADE UP THAT DOCTRINE… THEY ARE THE FALSE CHURCH, AND WORSHIP ISIS AND HORUS AND SEB, THEY WORSHIP IDOLS… THEY CREATED THE TRINITY THEY ARE THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS… BECAUSE MARTIN LUTHER LEFT UNDER FREEDOM OF RELIGION, AND BROUGHT THEIR RELIGION WITH HIM… THEY CALL ALL TRINITY FOLLOWERS THEIR WAYWARD CHILDREN… THEY ARE IN 17TH CHAPTER OF REVELATION…AROUND 5TH OR 6TH VERSE I THINK. READ DUET. 18:18 AND 19… THAT WAS GOD SPEAKING, NOT 3 PEOPLE… HE SHALL SPEAK MY WORDS IN MY NAME… NOT OUR NAME… THERE IS A REASON IT IS THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES… ITS GODS HOLY AND PRECIOUS NAME… THATS WHY PAUL TOLD TIMOTHY… GOD OUR SAVIOUR… GOD SAVED US ALL BY HIMSELF… A SON ”HAS” TO HAVE A MOTHER… WHO WAS THE SONS MOTHER IN HEAVEN ??? OR DID GOD CREATE HIM??? HOW COULD STEPHEN LOOK UP AND SEE THE SON STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, WHEN GOD IS EVERYWHERE AT ONCE, AND HE IS INVISIBLE… AINT BUT ONE THRONE BROTHER REVELATION 4:2 STEPHEN SEEN THE ”GLORY” OF GOD… ACTS 7:59 THE REASON HE CALLED UPON GOD CALLING HIM JESUS IS THE SAME REASON THOMAS WAS ABLE TO SAY… MY LORD AND MY GOD… THE ARM OF THE LORD WAS REVEALED TO THEM… HE SAW JESUS IN ALL HIS POWER GLORY AND DIVINITY !!! GOD OUR SAVIOUR… NO MAN KNOWS THE SON EXCEPT FOR THE FATHER, AND NO ONE KNOWS THE FATHER EXCEPT THE SON… AND WHOEVER HE REVEALS HIM TOO… IF YOU HAVE SEEN ME… YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER : ) JUST AS JESUS SAID, I AM WITH YOU AND SHALL BE IN YOU… WE DONT HAVE A PERSON IN US… GODS SPIRIT… THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST… ALL GLORY AND HONOR TO MY LORD AND MY GOD…JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS THE SAME YESTERDAY TODAY AND FOREVER… BLESSINGS
are you smoking something?
I see by your answer, you are not a christian, and you have not been born of the water and the spirit. I will pray for you joel, that God would have mercy on you, and allow you to find repentance. I do not do drugs, nor alcohol, nor do I smoke anything at all. I am a christian sir. You have considered yourself to be wise, and God has confounded you, in your state of pride. You have exalted your self, like you are some great Bible scholar, and you know not God. As a true representative of Christ, you would never have made that response, your response came from the spirit you are under… (REBELION) You are not Christ like friend, I am only 2 years into my new life with the LORD,and I would not give someone that I dont know such a devilish answer, only a person void of the Holy Ghost would speak like that, but Im not mad at you, I am going to be praying for you, for deliverance. You trusted men to teach you, and they taught you traditions, and beliefs of natural men. If you would just trust God, and be baptised in the name of the Lord, he would fill you with his spirit… You claim oneness… And you are decieved cause in your eyes GOD is the holy 3 of israel, not the holy one. How do you see the Father, as a man ? He is the eternal spirit. Not a man sitting in a chair, with a younger version ( jr ) sitting beside him. There is no GOD THE SON in the Bible, only the SON OF GOD. There is no trinity in the Bible. Catholics made up that doctrine. Luke 22:69 right hand of POWER !!! Was the Father to old to come down and die for us himself ? You talk oneness in three’s, thats blind eyes friend. The 3 manifestations, are One Spirit…. not 3 seperate people. Co Equal ? Jesus said my Father is greater than I !!! DID HE NOT ? YES OR NO ? HOW DO YOU GET EQUAL< OUT OF GREATER THAN ??? NO EQUALITIY !!! THE HOLY GHOST SEPERATE PERSON IMPREGNATED MARY… GOD THE FATHER PERSON GOT RIPPED OFF !!! BAD NEWS< THE HOLY GHOST PERSON IS THE BABIES DADDY. GOD IS INVISIBLE RIGHT ??? A SPIRIT !!! GOD IS OMNI PRESET, EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME !!! THEN HOW IN THE WORLD DID STEPHEN LOOK UP AND SEE THE SON OF MAN STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD? GOD IS INVISIBLE !!! HE COULD NOT HAVE SEEN GOD OR THE WHOLE BIBLE IS A LIE… GOD IS A SPIRIT JOHN 4:24 and a spirit doesnt have flesh and bones as Jesus had. ( GOD IN THE FLESH ) PLUS GOD IS AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT, AND IS OMNI PRESENT… THE SON OF MAN WOULD HAVE TO BE STANDING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF EVERYWHERE !!! BESIDE AN INVISIBLE SPIRIT… THAT NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN… Stephen got revelation… JESUS WAS GOD… HE SAW HIM IN ALL HIS GLORY….THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD… NOT A THIRD (1/3) OF A GOD WHO IS MADE UP OF PERSONS OR SEPERATE INTITIES… GOD SAID HE WOULD NO SHARE HIS GLORY… 2nd Cor. 5:19 THE ETERNAL SPIRIT OF GOD WAS IN THE FLESH… JESUS WASNT A THIRD OF THE GOD HEAD… HE WAS THE SON OF MAN AND THE FULNESS OF GODS DIVINE POWER DWELT IN HIM… THATS WHY HE KEPT SAYING ITS NOT ME DOING THE WORKS,,, ITS THE SAME SPIRIT THAT MADE ME OF A WOMAN… HES IN ME, HE DOES THESE MIRACLE, IT AINT THIS FLESH… ITS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENS OR GIVES LIFE… GOD THE ETERNAL SPIRIT WAS IN CHRIST RECONCILING THE WORLD BACK TO HIMSELF. JESUS IS CALLED EVERLASTING FATHER IN ISA. 9:6… IVE NEVER FOUND ANY OF THE TERMS YALL USE… ETERNAL SON ? HE DIED !!! THAT ENDED THE ETERNAL STUFF< AS IT BROKE THE CONTINUIM NEEDED TO ESTABLISH ETERNALNESS. DID GOD TAKE THIS SON, THAT WAS ALWAYS WITH HIM, AND COMPACT HIM TO PUT HIM IN MARY ??? IF I WAS GOD AND I DID HAVE A SON, ID HAVE LEFT HIM UP THERE, CAME DOWN IN A BODY, AND DONE IT ALL MYSELF…AS THE SON. CAUSE IF JESUS WAS GOD THE SON… AND CO EQUAL… HE WOULD NOT HAVE NEEDED ANOTHER GOD IN THE GOD THAT HE WAS A 1/3 PART OF, TO DO THE WORKS, HE WOULD OF HAD A 1/3 PART OF THE POWER, AND DONE THE WORKS HIMSELF, IT WOULDNT HAVE BEEN NECESSARY TO GET THE FATHER TO DO IT. IN YOUR GOD… WHO IS 3 PEOPLE… THE SON GOD IS EQUAL IN POWER ???, YET NEEDED THE FATHER GOD TO DO THE WORKS AND MIRACLES FOR HIM, AND THE FATHER GOD,WAS UNABLE TO COME DOWN AND DIE FOR HIS CREATION, HE NEED THE SON GOD TO DIE FOR HIM, AND TO CREATE FOR HIM, THEY ALL HAVE TO RELY ON EACH OTHER LIKE A CONGLOMERATION OF GODS WORKING TOGETHER…AND YOU CALL THIS ONE ??? MY GOD, WHO IS JESUS, THE SAME GOD STEPHEN CALLED ON IN ACTS 7:59 LORD JESUS (ONLY ONE LORD.. EPH.4:5 ) THE ALMIGHTY IS COMING BACK…THE LORD JESUS CHRIST…HE IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD… REV.11:16 & 17 GOD ALMIGHTY IS COMING… THAT IS MY GOD…THE LORD JESUS CHRIST… HE IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTATE, THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS !!! JESUS !!! THERE IS ONLY ONE THRONE 4:2 REVELATION…. BUT YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN TO SEE…. YOU WILL BE SO DISAPPOINTED WHEN YOU GO BEFORE OUR GOD, AND SAY HEY… WHERE IS THE FATHER PERSON, AND THE HOLY GHOST …. AND HE SAYS… IT IS I, THE ONLY WISE GOD, SAVIOUR, CREATOR, REDEEMER,WONDERFUL, COUNSELOR, PRINCE OF PEACE, EVERLASTING FATHER, ALMIGHTY GOD (NOT 1/3 MIGHTY JR ) THE LAMBOF GOD, THE LION OF JUDAH, THE GREAT I AM, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL, ( NOT 3 ) ROOT OF DAVID, MESSIAH, THE RESURRECTION, ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE SON OF GOD, THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF YOUR FAITH…. NOT US… " I '' NOT WE… '' I " THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD FRIEND… ONE LORD, AND HIS NAME IS ONE… JESUS !!! ZECH. 14:9 THE NATURAL TERMS YOU GUYS USE TO DESCRIBE A SPIRIT ARENT BIBLICAL…THEY ARE MAN MADE TRADITION, TAUGHT FROM PHILOSOPHER TO PHILOSOPHER… NATURAL!!! NO TRINITY IN THE BIBLE….WHY ISNT IT??? NEVER ONCE SAYS "GOD THE SON" IT ALL CAME FROM THE ENEMIES OF THE TRUE GOSPEL OF CHRIST… COUNSEL OF NICEA… AND IT IS FROM ROME !!! OUR ROOTS RATTLE A CHAIN THAT GOES ALL THE WAY BACK TO JERUSALEM… IN THE UPPER ROOM… AND GLORY BE TO GOD… IT'S THE SAME TODAY CAUSE OUR GOD… JESUS CHRIST DOESNT CHANGE… YOU ONLY HAVE TO BELIEVE FRIEND…AND REPENT AND BE BAPTISED IN HIS NAME… IF NOT… JOHN 3;18 IS YOUR FATE…THERE IS SOMETHING SPECIAL ABOUT THAT NAME, FOR "SALVATION"IS NOT FOUND IN ANY OTHER NAME… GOD BLESS YOU AND DELIVER AND SAVE YOU…. IN GOD'S HOLY AND PRECIOUS NAME, THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES, THE NAME WITH ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, IN THE MIGHTY NAME OF JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD… BLESSINGS. (NO RESPONSE NECESSARY) AS I WILL NOT BE BACK TO THIS SIGHT TO ARGUE WITH THE SPIRIT YOU ARE UNDER… TAKE CARE BROTHER… MAY GOD WAKE YOU UP AND REVEAL HIMSELF TO YOU…
Oh dear God, why the caps? You can take them off the same way you put them on. Dude, seriously… I’m not the half-naked guy taking a picture of myself with a phone in the mirror.
Otherwise, stop toking it up. You are scaring the straights.
I know many take the position that God withdrew his Spirit when Christ said my God my God why hast thou forsaken me.I would argue that since God took human nature into himself ,Logically speaking I don’t see the union of the Divine and Human nature separating, A man was dying talking to God.
I think that was a little harsh,The Nicene council made an effort,the same way congress craft Legislation which is all that could be done since Divine revelation had been given centuries ago.
A man that God became died on the cross.that man is Jesus Christ the Lamb whom God provided Himself from a woman under the law,slain before the beginning .