Another entry in this series, but not the last. I have once concerning historical context.
A comment was made on TC’s site concerning Jonah as an example who had a second chance after death (Here). We know who Jonah was, of course, and we know that according to Christ (Matthew 12.39-42), his story served as a sign of his death, burial, and resurrection. Because I don’t want to give a full answer and litter TC’s site, I wanted to give a better answer here.
Chapter 2 of the book encompasses all of Jonah’s prayer to God. The debate concerns whether or not Jonah was dead in the belly of the great fish.
Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the stomach of the fish and said, “I called out to the LORD from my distress, and he answered me; from the belly of Sheol I cried out for help, and you heard my prayer. You threw me into the deep waters, into the middle of the sea; the ocean current engulfed me; all the mighty waves you sent swept over me. I thought I had been banished from your sight, that I would never again see your holy temple! Water engulfed me up to my neck; the deep ocean surrounded me; seaweed was wrapped around my head. I went down to the very bottoms of the mountains; the gates of the netherworld barred me in forever; but you brought me up from the Pit, O LORD, my God. When my life was ebbing away, I called out to the LORD, and my prayer came to your holy temple. Those who worship worthless idols forfeit the mercy that could be theirs. But as for me, I promise to offer a sacrifice to you with a public declaration of praise; I will surely do what I have promised. Salvation belongs to the LORD!” Then the LORD commanded the fish and it disgorged Jonah on dry land. (Jon 2:1-10 NET)
We first have to understand Hebrew poetry and allegory. Remember, in Psalms 139, David mentioned making his bed in Sheol – yet how many of would think that David died and was resurrected by God (See Psalm 18.5; 30.3; 88.4;)? Sheol is the Hebrew word for the grave, corresponding to the Greek hades.
The key verse to this verse 7 – the NET translates it as ‘ebbing away.’ To support this translation, I present this from K&D:
Jonah 2:7 is formed after Psalm 142:4 or Psalm 143:4, except that נַפְשִׁי is used instead of רוּחִי, because Jonah is not speaking of the covering of the spirit with faintness, but of the plunging of the life into night and the darkness of death by drowning in the water. הִתְעַטֵּף, lit., to veil or cover one’s self, hence to sink into night and faintness, to pine away. עָלַי, upon or in me, inasmuch as the I, as a person, embraces the soul or life (cf. Psalm 42:5). When his soul was about to sink into the night of death, he thought of Jehovah in prayer, and his prayer reached to God in His holy temple, where Jehovah is enthroned as God and King of His people (Psalm 18:7; Psalm 88:3).
Note, while commentaries hold little weight, something I find it necessary to present support for the translation. Since Jonah had life enough to pray (contrary to the Rich Man in Luke’s parable), and lamented that his life was flowing from him into the final regions, he must in fact be alive.
Referring to the rest of the imagery, we must remember first that only it was common in Hebrew poetry to use the grave as the feeling of being separate from God – not always an actual death.
Now, what do you think?
Joel L. Watts holds a Masters of Arts from United Theological Seminary with a focus in literary and rhetorical criticism of the New Testament. His interests include exploring the role of mimesis in human civilization, specifically in the study of religion and media, as well as science fiction and the way in which it has allowed mythology to be explored in light of scientific discoveries of the past century. He is the author of Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark: Introduction and Commentary (Wipf and Stock, 2013) and a co-editor and contributor to From Fear to Faith: Stories of Hitting Spiritual Walls (Energion, 2013).
Website: → Unsettled Christianity
Connect
Come now–we know it was actually a whale!
Well….
Yeah, Sheol to communicate a feeling of despair works for me too.
Here’s the NRSV:
“As my life was ebbing away,
I remembered the Lord;and my prayer came to you,
into your holy temple.” (bold mine)
Of course he was still alive!
Hi.What you just said, confirming that Jonah was alive,confirms that Jesus never died.
Not really.
That’s my feeling, TC. If we examine David’s Psalms, we find that he regularly used such imagery – wonder if anyone else can see that.
Did Jonah Die in the Belly of the Great Fish? | The Church of …: Then the LORD commanded the fish and it disgo.. http://bit.ly/fVwaA
yep – ebbing away – totally agree Jonah didn’t die. As a Rabbi Jesus would have known that so I wonder why he used him as an example
v 40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. bit off the wall thinking, but could Jesus have found it hard to come to terms with God’s plan for him – take this cup from me – and hoped somehow that the plan would not have involved his death.
I think he was alive too – death was definitely impending but not on Jonah YET. I have every confidence that sitting in the digestive juices of a fish for three days could legitimately be compared to Sheol.
Besides – anyone who has ever been in the pits of despair might make that comparison when calling out to God.
P i agree with you and TC. Jonah did not die in belly of the great fish (whale) 2:2 and 2:7 proves this.
Jesus told the Pharisees that “he” the Son of man was Lord even of the Sabbath day- Matt 12:8.
The sign of Jonah,was a Messianic sign to the unbelieving pharisees and scribes Matthew 12:38-40. Jesus spent three consecutive Sabbaths/Holy convocations in the heart of the Earth- sundown to sundown. He was crucified on the preparation day of the passover lambs “between the two evenings” Exodus 12:6-18 and John 19:14-16.
Perhaps,the three days and three nights that Jonah was “alive” in the belly of the great fish was at Passover-unleaven bread and the Seventh day Sabbath of rest? The sign that the pharisees and scribes were given and would understand???
I don’t think that Christ saw it that way, Jan. Rather, things that are types and shadows of the real thing will lack the full reality.
Bitsy, that is a good point, and one that King David would have agreed with you on.
Jonah died in the belly of the great fish
Jonah 2:2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. KJV
“Out of the belly of hell and the grave cried I.’’ The fish might well be called a grave, and, as it was a prison to which Jonah was condemned for his disobedience and in which he lay under the wrath of God, it might well be called the belly of hell. Thither this good man was cast, and yet thence he cried to God, and it was not in vain; God heard him, heard the voice of his affliction, the voice of his supplication. There is a hell in the other world, out of which there is no crying to God with any hope of being heard; but, whatever hell we may be in the belly of in this world, we may thence cry to God. When Christ lay, as Jonah, three days and three nights in the grave, though he prayed not, as Jonah did, yet his very lying there cried to God for poor sinners, and the cry was heard – Matthew Henry
Other Commentary does matter and does have weight…….
In addition there are many known documented events of men and animals being retrieved from whales after days inside their air compartments. That is not a miracle, only explained events. A miracle is something that man can not explain, it is an act of God, like Jonah and his resurrection
3 Other Scolars, not minimalists, that believe Jonah died: are listed below
Dr. Henry M. Morris also leans toward this view. He said, The Lord Jesus confirmed the historicity of both Jonah and his experience in the “fish” by citing it as a type of his own coming death, burial and resurrection (Matthew 12:39, 40). In fact, these words of Christ probably indicate that Jonah, like Jesus, actually died and was then restored to life (Dr. Henry M. Morris, The Defender’s Study Bible, World Publishing, 1995, note on Jonah 1:17)……
Dr. M. R. DeHaan said,
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself vouches for the historicity and literalness of Jonah by seizing upon it as a type of His own literal Death and Resurrection. In Matthew 12:40, Jesus, in answer to His critics, who questioned His authority, says: “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the fish’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Jonah most probably died and was resurrected……..
(M. R. DeHaan, M.D., Jonah – Fact or Fiction?, Zondervan Publishing House, 1957, Introduction)
J. Vernon McGee, holds the view that Jonah actually died while in the belly of the great fish. The Hebrew word “sheol” is translated “hell” by the translators of the KJV Bible. McGee says this concerning the use of this word in the phrase, “out of the belly of hell”:
The longer I study the Book of Jonah, and Christ’s words in Matthew 12:39-41, the more I tend to agree with Dr. DeHaan that Jonah actually died while he was in the stomach of that fish. Christ literally died on the Cross, and rose again from the dead. And Christ used the experience of Jonah as the great Old Testament picture of His own death and resurrection. This was also the view of Dr. J. Vernon McGee, who went into great detail on this subject in his Thru the Bible Commentary (Dr. J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible, Thomas Nelson, 1982, volume III, pp. 749-755).
The phrase, “earth with her bars,” is Elizabethan English and this was a way death was spoken of in day the King James Bible was translated. There is no other way to interpret the phrase except to mean, “bars of death”.
Further, the phrase “brought up my life from corruption”, is referring to the decay of the body. “Corruption” is death. In Acts 2:25-31, Peter states the Lord Jesus did not see corruption. It does not mean He did not die, but that His body did not decay.
The greatest argument for Jonah actually dying and being raised form the dead is in Matthew 12:40. Jesus told the Pharisees that wanted a sign that none would be given but the sign of the prophet Jonah. Jesus said the sign was that as Jonah was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, so should He would be. Jesus actually died on the cross and was physically
dead for three days and nights in the grave and on the three day rose. Jesus’s using Jonah as a illustration of His resurrection which was to be a sign the Jews would see can not be ignored. For the sign to be used they must have been paralleled. This is the strongest argument to evidence
that as Christ died, so did Jonah.
I believe the evidence weighs heavy in favor of Jonah dying in the fish and being raised again. The miracle of Jonah’s deliverance was greater in that God raised him from death.
Blessings……..
Jonah died in the “great fish”
Naturally the Jews would disagree that Jonah died so that the story of Jesus and His resurrection would be discredited……..
As Jonah on the third day was discharged from his prison, and came to the land of the living again, from the congregation of the dead (for dead things are said to be formed from under the waters, Job 26:5), so Christ on the third day should return to life, and rise out of his grave to send abroad the gospel to the Gentiles
Jonah died in the fish’s belly. It is amazing how many persons think that Jonah lived in the fish’s belly and therefore many well-meaning Christians seek high and low, turn heaven and earth upside down in a search for a fish or whale to prove that a man could survive in the whale. it proves nothing because Jonah died in the fish. Living inside a whale is not a miracle but an event that has been documented numerous times.
Jonah said that he went to sheol (the place in the heart of the earth where Jesus went) in Jonah 2:2. Jonah also said, “I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God (Jonah 2:6).” Jonah’s soul was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights exactly as Christ was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40).
Jonah was a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jonah booked passage on a ship to flee from the presence of the Lord. God sent a great storm that threatened the lives of all that were on board. The attempts of the seamen to save themselves were futile. When the seamen asked how to be saved from the storm, Jonah said, “Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you (Jonah 1:12).” Jonah had to die for those on the ship to be saved. Jesus had to die for those on the earth to be saved. Jonah gave up his life. Jesus gave His life.
Jonah’s body was entombed in the fish’s belly, while Jonah’s soul was in the heart of the earth. Jesus’ body was entombed in a rich man’s tomb while His soul was in the heart of the earth. Jonah was resurrected and his soul was brought up from sheol and re-entered his body which was in the fish’s belly. Jesus was resurrected and His soul was brought up from hades or sheol and re-entered His body which was in the rich man’s tomb.
The one sign that Jesus gave to prove His identity was the sign of Jonah. His critics demanded a sign. “Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But He answered and said unto them, an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the fish’s belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:38-40).”
The Bible tells us that Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites. Jonas body carried the marks of his death. His body was in a fish that tried to digest him for three days or 72 hours. Jonah probably had no hair anywhere on his body–No eyelashes, no eyebrows, no hair on his head or on his body. His skin must have been wrinkled and bleached by the powerful stomach acids. He was a sign. He had been resurrected, and it was obvious!
“For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of Man be to this generation.” Luke 11:30.
Jesus also carried the marks of His death in His body. Jesus said, “Behold my hands and my feet that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see Me have.” (Luke 24:39).
Blessings
thankyou Polycarp
Dave, you are missing the meaning of the text, sacrificing the meaning for what some scholars say. Further, there are many more which we can consult which say that Jonah lived. You are misreading Henry, as he says ‘might as well’ meaning that he understands Jonah’s use of ‘sheol’ (not hell, Gehenna is not a Hebrew word) to mean despair such as the Grave. Further, it is an imagery found throughout the Psalms to mean separate from God. You have yet to answer any of that.
Not sure why you think I think Jonah is a miracle. Yes, indeed, people can live in some strange locations – never heard of one being rescued from the belly of the whale. Jonah’s time was not counted as a miracle, but a punishment. I can count Henry, who did not believe that Jonah died, Barnes, Clark, Calvin, Gill, etc…. who state that the plain sense of the text is that Jonah was alive. Further, since Jonah was written in Hebrew, not 16th century English, you have to look at the original text. ‘Bars of the Earth’ literally means just that – a prison.
Again, a sign/picture lacks the reality of Primary. It is an image of things, not the real thing. Tell me, if Jonah is picture perfect, did Jonah’s ‘death’ offer salvation? Hardly.
What evidence? Three bible commentators and 16th century English? Hardly weighty evidence considering that the preponderance of evidence of Hebrew speaks to Jonah of being alive.
Dave,
I’m not a Jew, neither was Henry, Calvin, etc…. who agree that Jonah as alive. Jonah living does not discredit the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
You quote Job, but you fail to remember that Jonah came from the land, deposited to the sea. You fail to understand the Hebrew imagery, Dave, as Sheol was used figuratively throughout Hebrew poetry. Further, Christ said that He would spend three days in the heart of the earth (the tomb) not Sheol.
If Jonah was a picture, did Christ run from God? Hardly. Again, an understanding and acceptance of Hebrew poetry is a must. Jonah was not resurrected, because he didn’t die.
You fail to make your case from Scripture, Dave, relying upon the understanding of others. You do so to promote the idea of a second chance after death, to the dismay of the Gospel. If there is a second chance, then Christ would not be needed.
I don’t recall any Psalm of David starting “From the belly of the fish, David prayed”.
Nope, he didn’t. So?
Dave, let me ask you a question -
When did you come to this conclusion that we get a second chance after death – which is seemingly a Catholic doctrine?
First of all You have incorrectly stated that I believed there was a second chance after death to accept the Gospel. I did not state that nor do I believe the Scripture teaches a second chance. I was Baptist bred, I have been Baptist fed, and when I die I will be Baptist dead It was you that stated you believed a Catholic doctrine of Augustine. ….
Polycarp
Dave, I have not read to many ’scholars’ that have that interpretation. Further, the Bible does not allude to Jonah’s death, as he was seen as living in the belly of the whale. 2.7 says that Jonah made his prayer while his life was ‘ebbing away’ (NET). If his life was not yet gone, then surely he was not yet dead.
Further, the majority of ’scholars’ seem to be biblical minimalists.
The interpretation of that passage in Peter is a wrong one and I side with Augustine.
Dave
As for Augustine that you agree, a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach after his death, were not in heaven, nor yet in the hell of
the damned; because heaven is no prison, and Christ did not go to preach to the damned. (Challoner) St. Augustine, in his 99th epistle, confesses that this text is replete with difficulties. This he declares is clear, beyond all doubt, that Jesus Christ descended in soul after his death into the regions below, and concludes with these words: Quis ergo nisi infidelis negaverit fuisse apud inferos Christum? In this prison souls would not be detained unless they were indebted to divine justice, nor would salvation be preached to them unless they were in a state that was capable of receiving salvation.
That sounds like a second chance Catholic doctrine that you believe….
As evidence of that, anyone on this blog can go the URL below to see the previous discussions that will prove that……..
http://newleaven.com/2009/07/30/rethinking-2-timothy-116-18-did-paul-pray-for-the-ead/#comment-11218
Second of all I have done nothing to discredit the Gospel by my statements, nor have I failed to make my case by quoting the KJV Jonah 2:2 that states Jonah cried from the “belly of hell”. Furthermore I have simply provided statements from other scholars that you stated were minmalists of the Gospel, which they are not, but they believe what I do on this subject……
Third of all this discussion was started by the question about Paul praying for a friend and associate of Paul that most scholars thought was dead.Should one pray for one who has passed away?
Fourth of all if you are a brother in Christ, you must know that people can disagree without insulting another brother. The Proverb that “iron sharpens iron” should stimulate your mind and spirit to perhaps investigate what another brother is saying…….
Fifth of all I have blessed you with each response. I have not received one blessing from you. Every one of my responses was meant to bless you. You stated that commentaries were not important, but the scholars that I listed made statements also that were meant to enlighten and edify. You may disagree with what we discussed, but that will not stop my efforts to bless you……….
At this point I will retire my statements to your blog, I sincerely hope that you find the best that God has in store for you………..
Blessings……..
Dave, rereading TC’s blog, it seems that you stated that you believe that someone could receive mercy after death. Is this a false assumption?
First, I stand with Augustine on his interpretation of that passage – that Jonah was alive. You incorrectly assume that I would follow all of his doctrines. You remember, of course, that Calvin followed Augustine greatly – and that Baptists are generally three to four point Calvinists? Let’s not get into that subject, Dave, and remain civil one with another, shall we
The KJV is clear as well, although not as clear as the Hebrew. Again, while you read it in English, you are missing the intent of Jonah – the same as David’s when he said that he was in Sheol. (Hell is a bad translation of Sheol, Dave.) In quoting the passage and applying your assumptions, you have failed to make your case.
Dave, when you mention scholars, I understand you to mean scholars of this day and age, not those that lived 200 to 300 years ago. I believe that most people would assume this as well. Most scholars today are minimalists.
Iron can sharpen iron, indeed, but not when one person is clearly wrong and using a very bad understanding of a passage to justify praying for the dead. I am sorry that you feel that your comments can provide blessing. Not sure how that works, Dave, but when you are clearly wrong, how can it bless? No one should pray for the dead, for they have met their judgement already. To say otherwise is to great problems for the mediatory figure of Christ.
Dave, I generally do not allow ‘this is my last statement and I am going to run’ but I will this time. But, when you return, please answer me on when you first came to this conclusion? I believe that it is important to the conversation to know where you are coming from.
well i’m no scholar but only one has died and rose again – also if you are going to argue Jonah died couldn’t you argue that David did also Ps 18 v 4?
Jan, that is my point as well. David used sheol many times to present the pit of despair, and yet, he died only once – to await resurrection.
Just would like to say that it is very interesting and both arguments have merit… I know the Jonah was supposed to be a type of Christ… if he died or not… God could have kept him alive or let him die and resurrect him… either would be a miracle… peace and come Lord Jesus!
So were arguing that jonah couldn’t have died because it would take away merit from jesus’s resurrection? Jesus purpose was far greater than that of any man. He is the only man to die without sin, and his ressurection signified the triumph over evil and the fact that death couldn’t retain him. jonah couldve been ressurected but when its all said and done he still died later like all of us. Jesus didn’t. Unless we dont believe God or jesus cant ressurect the dead. What about jarius daughter? So if hes the only one youve known about that came back from the dead, you should do a little more reading. Bless you all, a very controversial topic indeed
Well….