According Rick’s brother-in-law, who is a teaching pastor at Saddleback, domestic violence is defined as a series of beatings. From here:
Kathryn Joyce has a typically insightful article at Double X, on attitudes to domestic violence at Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church. She quotes some audio clips of Teaching Pastor Tom Holladay (who is married to Warren’s sister), who explains that domestic abuse means regular beatings, not a one-off attack, and that a woman is never justified in seeking a divorce on grounds of violence:
“There’s something in me that wishes there was a Bible verse that says if they abuse you in this and such kind of way then you can leave them,” said Holladay, but sadly, he concluded, there wasn’t.
The author that the above post refers to the story of a woman who because she separated from her husband because of divorce, and filed a police report, she was frozen out by Saddleback – especially when her husband, a former Pentecostal minister, joined the ‘Baptist’ Saddleback.
Read the whole thing here; Kathryn deftly guides us through the wider context of marriage teaching and wifely submission within conservative evangelicalism.
I have to agree with Dr. West in saying that this goes beyond the pale and should be denounced. I denounce the teaching that says a woman must submit to beatings by her husband – it is Scriptural unsupported, Traditionally unsound, and simply out, of grave error. It treats women as second class citizens, bound to her husband regardless of abuse, perhaps even to the point of murder.
We know assuredly that the Lord did not condone spousal beatings, for we are commanded by the Apostle Paul, we as husbands, to treat our wives as the Lord treats the Church. She is His Bride and I cannot think that the Lord Himself would beat the Church.
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. (Ephesians 5:22-33 NKJV)
We debate so much the great things, the Godhead, the sacraments, the nature of the regeneration, but too often we leave the health of families waning, separating them in Sunday School, and at events, never seeking to draw them closer.
My grandfather told me once, of an event in the small town of Kentwood, Louisiana, at the opening of the last century, in which the town found out that a certain individual beat his wife, among other things. One night, the men of the community showed up at his doorstep and ‘discussed’ a few things with this man about his husbandly duties. After the ‘discussion’, the man never laid another finger on his wife, nor stepped out, no, as far as anyone could tell, said a cross word to her and his children. Now, these were baptists, of the Southern Variety.
A few things bring my blood to a boil – racism, sexism, and stupidity. It seems that Rick has scored two out of three. Why is he still allowed a respected voice?
Joel L. Watts holds a Masters of Arts from United Theological Seminary with a focus in literary and rhetorical criticism of the New Testament. His interests include exploring the role of mimesis in human civilization, specifically in the study of religion and media, as well as science fiction and the way in which it has allowed mythology to be explored in light of scientific discoveries of the past century. He is the author of Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark: Introduction and Commentary (Wipf and Stock, 2013) and a co-editor and contributor to From Fear to Faith: Stories of Hitting Spiritual Walls (Energion, 2013).
Website: → Unsettled Christianity
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This is the perfect example of where pastors need to do their homework. As I understand the first century divorce laws in early Judaism, divorce was always permissible in cases of abandonment, neglect, physical abuse, etc. The major debate was how to understand ערות דבר (“nakedness of a thing”) in Deut 24.1. This seems to be the debate Jesus is drug into in the gospels. This, I think, should color how we read the gospel texts, not as giving a blueprint for divorce, but showing Jesus’ interpretation on Deut 24.1.
Here I am largely dependent on David Instone-Brewer’s arguments.
Sometimes, in a effort to take the Bible “seriously” we do really stupid things: like recommend that a battered woman stay with an abusive husband.
This is the perfect example of where pastors need to do their homework. As I understand the first century divorce laws in early Judaism, divorce was always permissible in cases of abandonment, neglect, physical abuse, etc. The major debate was how to understand ערות דבר (“nakedness of a thing”) in Deut 24.1. This seems to be the debate Jesus is drug into in the gospels. This, I think, should color how we read the gospel texts, not as giving a blueprint for divorce, but showing Jesus’ interpretation on Deut 24.1.
Here I am largely dependent on David Instone-Brewer’s arguments.
Sometimes, in a effort to take the Bible “seriously” we do really stupid things: like recommend that a battered woman stay with an abusive husband.
Unfortunately, the only time that I have heard Instone-Brewer used is in defense of Todd Bentley. I think that people have to separate divorce from remarriage.
Polycarp,
I’m not sure how Instone-Brewer is being used to support the likes of Todd Bentley, but his work is certainly worth your time. The research for the project was done during his doctoral work at Cambridge.
check it out here: http://www.eerdmans.com/shop/product.asp?p_key=9780802849434&i=4
HIs personal website on the topic of divorce and remarriage offers a concise summary.
Here’s the table of contents. Most specialists that I know in the Hebrew Bible and Early Judaism say that they feel he has dealt honestly and deftly with the data.
Introduction
The Ancient Near East
Marriage Is a Contract
The Pentateuch
The Divorce Certificate Allows Remarriage
The Later Prophets
Breaking Marriage Vows Is Condemned
Intertestamental Period
Increasing Rights for Women
Rabbinic Teaching
Increasing Grounds for Divorce
Jesus’ Teaching
Divorce on Biblical Grounds Only
Paul’s Teaching
Biblical Grounds Include Neglect
Marriage Vows
Vows Inherited from the Bible and Judaism
History of Divorce
Interpretations in Church History
Modern Reinterpretations
Different Ways to Understand the Biblical Text
Pastoral Conclusions
Reversing Institutionalized Misunderstandings
Bibliography
Index of Modern Authors
Index of Subjects
Index of Scripture and Other Ancient Texts
Polycarp,
I’m not sure how Instone-Brewer is being used to support the likes of Todd Bentley, but his work is certainly worth your time. The research for the project was done during his doctoral work at Cambridge.
check it out here: http://www.eerdmans.com/shop/product.asp?p_key=9780802849434&i=4
HIs personal website on the topic of divorce and remarriage offers a concise summary.
Here’s the table of contents. Most specialists that I know in the Hebrew Bible and Early Judaism say that they feel he has dealt honestly and deftly with the data.
Introduction
The Ancient Near East
Marriage Is a Contract
The Pentateuch
The Divorce Certificate Allows Remarriage
The Later Prophets
Breaking Marriage Vows Is Condemned
Intertestamental Period
Increasing Rights for Women
Rabbinic Teaching
Increasing Grounds for Divorce
Jesus’ Teaching
Divorce on Biblical Grounds Only
Paul’s Teaching
Biblical Grounds Include Neglect
Marriage Vows
Vows Inherited from the Bible and Judaism
History of Divorce
Interpretations in Church History
Modern Reinterpretations
Different Ways to Understand the Biblical Text
Pastoral Conclusions
Reversing Institutionalized Misunderstandings
Bibliography
Index of Modern Authors
Index of Subjects
Index of Scripture and Other Ancient Texts
I missed this when it was posted before … Warren’s stupidity in this is absolutely jaw-dropping!
I’ve heard other people say this, but they’ve always been people that EVREYONE knows to be kooks.
I missed this when it was posted before … Warren’s stupidity in this is absolutely jaw-dropping!
I’ve heard other people say this, but they’ve always been people that EVREYONE knows to be kooks.
I missed this when it was posted before … Warren’s stupidity in this is absolutely jaw-dropping!
I’ve heard other people say this, but they’ve always been people that EVREYONE knows to be kooks.
Unfortunately, the only time that I have heard Instone-Brewer used is in defense of Todd Bentley. I think that people have to separate divorce from remarriage.
Polycarp,
I’m not sure how Instone-Brewer is being used to support the likes of Todd Bentley, but his work is certainly worth your time. The research for the project was done during his doctoral work at Cambridge.
check it out here: http://www.eerdmans.com/shop/product.asp?p_key=9780802849434&i=4
HIs personal website on the topic of divorce and remarriage offers a concise summary.
Here’s the table of contents. Most specialists that I know in the Hebrew Bible and Early Judaism say that they feel he has dealt honestly and deftly with the data.
Introduction
The Ancient Near East
Marriage Is a Contract
The Pentateuch
The Divorce Certificate Allows Remarriage
The Later Prophets
Breaking Marriage Vows Is Condemned
Intertestamental Period
Increasing Rights for Women
Rabbinic Teaching
Increasing Grounds for Divorce
Jesus’ Teaching
Divorce on Biblical Grounds Only
Paul’s Teaching
Biblical Grounds Include Neglect
Marriage Vows
Vows Inherited from the Bible and Judaism
History of Divorce
Interpretations in Church History
Modern Reinterpretations
Different Ways to Understand the Biblical Text
Pastoral Conclusions
Reversing Institutionalized Misunderstandings
Bibliography
Index of Modern Authors
Index of Subjects
Index of Scripture and Other Ancient Texts