Was Pentecost the Regathering of Israel?

Recently, we have enjoyed a fruitful discussion on Prophecy, especially concerning the Jews and the Church. (Start here) The focus of the discussion thus far is the return of the Jews to Israel, or rather in Covenant with God. (Has it been fulfilled?)As we know, the dispersion of the Jews happened in two phases. First, the northern Kingdom (Israel or Ephraim) was dispersed by the Assyrians while some time later, the Babylonians conquered the southern Kingdom (Judah – and Benjamin).

Let’s first examine a few of the prophetic cues to the regathering of Israel,

“For thus says the Lord GOD: “Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.  (Ezekiel 34:11-13 NKJV)

Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days. (Hosea 3:5 NKJV)

In 1948, the modern state of Israel was born, which has excited evangelicals to no end; yet, this is not the restoration of Israel, for several reasons.

  1. The prophecies of Israel’s regathering are quoted in the New Testament by the apostles and are said to be fulfilled in Christ through the gospel. Compare: Hosea 1:9, 10; 2:23; with Romans 9:25, 26; 1 Peter 2:9; Isaiah 10:20–23 with Romans 9:27, 28
  2. Sitivina Rabuka cites Jeremiah 31:10, as proof that God would protect Israel from those who would attack them and seek to destroy them. However, he overlooks the fact that God promised that Israel would never be attacked or have their land threatened on any of the three annual feast days. (Exod. 34:23) Yet, Israel was attacked on Yom Kippur, 1973. In the Bible, each time ancient Israel was attacked on a feast day, it was proof that Israel had broken the covenant. Don K. Preston of Preterist Research Institute in Israel 1948, Countdown to Nowhere, argues that Josephus (first century Jewish Historian and other Jewish sources) cite that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem during the feast of Pentecost in 586 BC., (p. 26)Preston also points out that according to Josephus, an eyewitness of the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem took place during Pentecost, one of Israel’s three special feast days for disobedience to the covenant, Matthew 23–24). Modern Israel was attacked on the Passover on 3/27/2002. Each time in the past Biblical History, Israel is attacked on the feast days for disobedience to to the covenant.Thus, rather than proving Israel’s protection, an attack on the feast days proves that God is in disfavor with God.
  3. Through Christ, God created a new nation of Israel, i.e. descendants of Abraham through faith, not flesh, (Gal.
    3:26–29).Romans 2:28–29, speaks of those who are Jews inwardly, versus according to the flesh. Later Paul says those of the flesh are not counted as the seed of Abraham, Rom. 9:5–6, but that Christians, comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles, are the new Israel of God, Gal. 6:16.
  4. As a direct result of their unbelief and disobedience the Jewish nation would be cast off forever from God’s
    presence and covenant people. (Gal. 4:26)  This means that modern Israel, unless they are believers in Christ, are not the people of God.Moses prophesied that all who would not hear the Christ would be cut off from Israel, (Acts 3:22, 23).
  5. All Old Testament prophecy has now been fulfilled. According to Luke 21:20–22, Jesus said the A.D. 70, destruction of Jerusalem was God’s vengeance upon the nation for crucifying Christ and his followers.

One of the things that we must look at is what the Apostles thought. James, the bishop of Jerusalem (Acts 15),  quoted Amos who had centuries earlier written,

On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things. (Amos 9:11-12 LXX)

The Lord is clear: In that day God would again raise the tabernacle of David for the remnant of men (Jewish) and for the Gentiles called by His name that both, as one would earnestly seek Him. James understood ‘that day’ to be the day of the Church.

Further, we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews:

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then there would not have been a constant searching for a second. For finding fault with the people, He says: Behold! The days are coming, says the LORD, then I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand, to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt because they did not continue in my covenant, and I neglected them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will draw-up with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws into their minds and inscribe them in their hearts; I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people. And by no means will they teach their neighbor, saying: Learn from me about the LORD; for all will come to know me by acquaintance, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness; their sins and their iniquities will I remember anymore. When the LORD says ‘new’, he has made the first old, and what is declared obsolete and grows aged, is read to be abolished. (Hebrews 8:7-13 CTV)

And if you go back to the reference in Jeremiah from which this is taken, you discover that it is actually PART of a prophecy dealing with regathering Israel after their scattering!

At that time I will be the God of all the family groups of Israel and they will be my people. I, the Lord, affirm it.” The Lord says, “The people of Israel who survived death at the hands of the enemy will find favor in the wilderness as they journey to find rest for themselves. In a far-off land the Lord will manifest himself to them. He will say to them, ‘I have loved you with an everlasting love. That is why I have continued to be faithful to you. I will rebuild you, my dear children, Israel, so that you will once again be built up. Once again you will take up the tambourine and join in the happy throng of dancers. Once again you will plant vineyards on the hills of Samaria. And those who plant them will once again enjoy their fruit. Yes, a time is coming when watchmen will call out on the mountains of Ephraim, “Come! Let us go to Zion to worship the Lord our God.”‘” Moreover, the Lord says, “Sing for joy for the descendants of Jacob. Raise glad shouts for that foremost of the nations. Make your praises heard. Then say, ‘Lord, rescue your people. Deliver those of Israel who remain alive.’ And I will reply, ‘I will bring them back from the land of the north. I will gather them in from the distant parts of the earth. Blind and lame people will come with them. And so will pregnant women and women about to give birth. A vast throng of people will come back here. They will come back shedding tears of contrition. I will bring them back praying prayers of repentance. I will lead them besides streams of water, along smooth paths where they will never stumble. I will do this because I am Israel’s father; Ephraim is my first born son.'” Hear what the Lord has to say, O nations. And proclaim it in the faraway lands along the sea. Say, “The one who scattered Israel will regather them. He will watch over his people like a shepherd watches over his flock.” (Jeremiah 31:1-10 NET)

Indeed, the people of Israel are my dear children. They are the children I take delight in. For even though I must often speak against them, I still remember them with fondness. So I am deeply moved with pity for them and will surely have compassion on them. I, the Lord, affirm it. I will say, ‘My dear children of Israel, keep in mind the road you took when you were carried off. Mark off in your minds the landmarks. Make a mental note of telltale signs marking the way back. Return, my dear children of Israel. Return to these cities of yours. (Jeremiah 31:20-21 NET)

And here is the passage Hebrews 8 quotes:

“Indeed, a time is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new agreement with the people of Israel and Judah. It will not be like the old agreement that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. For they violated that agreement, even though I was a faithful husband to them,” says the Lord. “But I will make a new agreement with the whole nation of Israel after I plant them back in the land,” says the Lord. “I will put my law within them and write it on their hearts and minds. And I will be their God and they will be my people. “People will no longer need to teach their neighbors and relatives to know me. That is because all of them, from the least important to the most important, will know me,” says the Lord. “All of this is based on the fact that I will forgive their sin and will no longer call to mind the wrong they have done.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34 NET)

And in this manner we continue and read that God will remember Israel forever, as follows immediately after these verses above:

The Lord has made a promise to Israel. He promises it as the one who provides for the fixed ordering of the sun to give light by day and the moon and stars to give light by night. He promises it as the one who stirs up the sea so that its waves roll. He promises it as the one who is known as the Lord who rules over all. The Lord affirms, “The descendants of Israel will by no means cease forever to be a nation in my sight. That could only happen if the fixed ordering of the heavenly lights were to cease to operate before me.” The Lord says, “I will by no means reject all the descendants of Israel because of all that they have done. That could only happen if the heavens above could be measured or the foundations of the earth below could all be explored,” says the Lord. (Jeremiah 31:35-37 NET)

There is indeed an regathering of Israel, but it has happened through the Church and can only happen through the Church – as we have the word of the Apostles. It is a regathering through the cross. Our Apostolic foundation of epistles have already give us the correct interpretation as our covenant and our day . The day of Pentecost, the inauguration of the regathering as well as the ingathering of the Gentiles, is the fulfillment of the promises made to Israel, and to the Gentiles (Amos).

We have to remember as well, Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, in which he says,

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh–who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands– that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (Ephesians 2:11-13 NKJV)

Paul takes ‘Israel’ to a spiritual level, and claims that all those with Christ are not part of Israel. It is important to note that from the destruction of the southern Kingdom, Judah, Israel had no King from the Davidic line – not until Jesus Christ was raised up.

Let us discuss this, so that we may not leave or seclude any from among us, or err in the way of false doctrines.

Post By Joel Watts (10,088 Posts)

Joel L. Watts holds a Masters of Arts from United Theological Seminary with a focus in literary and rhetorical criticism of the New Testament. He is currently a Ph.D. student at the University of the Free State, analyzing Paul’s model of atonement in Galatians. He is the author of Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark: Introduction and Commentary (Wipf and Stock, 2013), a co-editor and contributor to From Fear to Faith: Stories of Hitting Spiritual Walls (Energion, 2013), and Praying in God's Theater, Meditations on the Book of Revelation (Wipf and Stock, 2014).

Website: → Unsettled Christianity

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64 thoughts on Was Pentecost the Regathering of Israel?

  1. Hi P

    This was well done!

    I have collected all of the passages of scripture that you have used in your post,so that i can read them again tonight at work tonight [on break of course] :-)…

    Though you already know that i believe this,there is nothing like seeing this truth unfold in both Testaments,by the Prophets and Apostles of God our Savior…

    And for those who preach and teach [John Hagee] and the like and cast painful accusations of Anti-semitism against other believers,but are the ones who are willing to stand for,praise and honor her to the very END and even help her re-BUILD it, before they fly away…They are the ones who really need to see her in the light of the scriptures and historically.See the lack of peace round about her, that you have laid out in this post…And then love her,not with a twisted heart,but with a true.

    This is God’s will.That ALL come unto the knowledge of the truth and be saved…

  2. Hi again P,

    I meant those specifically,like John Hagee,who preach and teach against Evangelizing or sharing the true Gospel with National Israel,but are instead waiting for the End to come,believing that she,[unbelieving Israel],has God’s promises of regathering and redemption…

    Not ever hating him or other believers like him,but hating the accusations of Anti-semitism that they cast against those of us who believe that National Israel,should not have our [Christians] unwavering support in all that she does as a State or Nation…

    I would like to continue our conversation too.

  3. I would have to do further research, and perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that to be able to say all OT prophecy has been fulfilled, Luke 21:20–22 must be taken out of context.

    Luke 21:20–24

    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    The context of the verse is the destruction of Jerusalem, therefore, it must be speaking of all things written about Jerusalem. And people have been returning to Jerusalem, but there are Gentiles still there. So perhaps the times of the Gentiles has not been fulfilled?

    BTW, I do NOT believe that anyone should not be evangelized. I think we are to share the love of Christ with all.

  4. Polycarp-

    What do you make of Paul’s statements in Romans 9-11 that Israel’s blindness was only temporary? He states that God had not cast aside the nation of Israel and recited his lineage. Gentiles are grafted into Israel, Israel is not grafted into the church. The believing remnant of Israelites who repented at Messiah’s coming IS the church with believing Gentiles grafted in. Why did Jesus tell the 12 disciples that they would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel?

    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

    -The Orange Mailman

  5. Hagee is smart not to try and evangelize us… it’s a terrible thing to try and turn Jews to idolatry. Salvation was always available to us long before J.C. hit the scene. Our ancient convenant with Hashem is still as real today as it was when it was created, and forgiveness of sins has always been available to us (and you) without the need for “blood”.

  6. Hello Polycarp-

    That doesn’t answer the question to my satisfaction. You concede that promises to national Israel are yet to be fulfilled, but should realize that the gathering prophecies of the OT did not happen on Pentecost, but await the future day which Peter referred to as the times of refreshing. National repentance of Israel is what the Gentiles are being saved for. They are to provoke Israel to jealousy.

    There is no way that someone can demonstrate that Isaiah 11 has been fulfilled. Yet here is a regathering of Israel passage. Your comment concerning the 12 tribes doesn’t address the fact that there will be 12 tribes to judge. Israel will exist in the form of 12 tribes in the future being judged by the 12 apostles.

    Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

    -The Orange Mailman

  7. Polycarp,

    Perhaps you should read Jeremiah 31: 35-37. These promises were made to national Israel in connection with the New Covenant. The church does not “replace” Israel, but partakes of New Covenant blessings which were promised to Israel. Because of Israel’s rejection, they were offered to Gentiles. However, this does not mean that Israel has been “cast away.” The ultimate establishment of the New Covenant includes fulfillment of the land promises (Jer. 31: 40-42).

    Here’s a case in point. Read Ezekiel 37: 25:

    “And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, WHEREIN YOUR FATHERS HAVE DWELT; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever.”

    How do you think Ezekiel’s original audience understood this prophecy? The phrase “land wherein your fathers have dwelt” means nothing other than the physical land of Canaan, to which ALL ISRAEL will one day be restored. To spiriritualize this passage is to pervert the plain meaning of the text.

    Brian

  8. Perhaps the problem is our definition of Israel? It seems we have been so overwhelmed with the Dispensational model that any time we hear the term used we must automatically assume some nation in a dry and dusty strip of land that always seems to be at odds with it’s neighbor.

    But is that Paul’s true definition of Israel both in Galatians and Romans? This artificial separation does no one any good. The “one” tree was uprooted and replaced with a new tree! The apostate branches were broken off – but there were still “true” branches left. Then the new branches were placed into the “old” tree. Those new members are part of the old and are part of “true” Israel.

    No one “replaced” anyone. New members were grafted in with the old members that were faithful. That is why Paul can call those of “natural” Israel NOT of Israel and those not of the seed of Abraham part of “Israel” because of the “one seed” that births those new members into Israel.

    All of true Israel will be saved!

    The context of the Olivet Discourse does not start when the Disciples ask the questions, but rather back in Chapter 21 when He rides into Jerusalem and turns over the money changers and call the Temple “My” house, but ends Chapter 23 by calling the Temple “Your” house. The dissolution of “Old Covenant” that, according to Hebrews “faded out” while the new one faded in points to the fact that the old system would “fade out” with NO MENTION of a return to it.

    But to the question of the “regathering.” I am convinced that this is exactly what Jesus refers to in the Olivet Discourse and Paul refers to in Thessalonians. They both use the exact same term – episunigogue (excuse the spelling as I am doing this from memory). The term is used only one other time and thatis in the book of Hebrews where we are told not to forsake the “gathering together” as is the habit of some.

    This “gathering” when understood with the true definition of Israel makes both Pentecost (initial) and the destruction of the Temple (authoritative) that markings of the fulfillment. By that I mean we know that Pentecost called devout Jews and that Paul would later reach out to the gentiles. But historically speaking (finding fulfillment from the Olivet Discourse) the Gospel proclamation after the fall of Jerusalem saw no equal. No longer under the auspices of a “Jewish sub group) the Gospel spread throughout the Roman Empire VERY quickly.

    As to the time of the Gentiles. What makes the interpreter leap to think that “time” has to do with anything more than the appointed time the Gentiles would take to destroy the Temple exactly as Jesus predicted – within the specific time frame that Jesus predicted? The time of the gentiles, also found in Revelation, was 3 1/2 years in which the temple and city would be trodden under. This isn’t a picture of some sort of “age” but rather a clear depiction of the utter fulfillment of Daniel 9.

  9. Hi Polycarp/Low5point

    I can’t get into the whole Israel thing right now. However, in Romans 11 Paul clearly states that “all Israel” will be saved — and the context identifies Israel as the same people who are “enemies for your sake” (Rom. 11: 28). He is not speaking of the elect remnant but of the unbelieving nation. The nation will be saved after the final purging. We have to remember that tribulation is likened to a period of “birth-pangs” but also to a purging, which takes away the dross and leaves pure gold (Mal. 3: 3-4). It is a “new birth.” This process does not involve the creation of an entirely new entity, but the renewal of the old. See Ezekiel 20: 36-42, especially v. 42. And note the use of the personal pronoun “YOU.” Ezekiel is not addressing the church — which was a “mystery” hidden in God — but the nation of Israel. This is what Preterists don’t understand.

    If the Old Covenant passed away in A.D. 70, then Jehovah broke His own law. See Leviticus 26: 44; Jer. 30: 11; 31: 35-37; 33: 20-22, etc. Christ came to confirm the O.T. promises (Rom. 15: 8). Therefore, the Old Covenant remains in effect until all the promises made to the fathers are fulfilled.

    We only receive the first-fruits of the spiritual blessings which were promised in Jeremiah 31. And if it hadn’t been for Israel’s rejection, we have no claim at all to “their spiritual things.” The fullness of the N.C. will established when “all Israel is saved.” And this must follow the Great Tribulation, which again is likened to a time of “birth-pangs” — because it brings about the new birth of the nation. It is Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30: 7), and has nothing to do with the church.

    Anyhow, I certainly believe that David will be raised and reign as viceregent of Messiah during the Millennium. Every joy and tittle of the law and prophets must be fulfilled before “heaven and earth pass away” — and that doesn’t happen until after the Millennium! (see Rev. 20: 11). As for the phrase “for ever,” I believe it simply means “for the age.” The Jews will inherit the land and enjoy it until all of God’s enemies are destroyed, and then all things will be made permanent and eternal in the new heavens and earth.

    Peace & Health,

    Brian

  10. Your problem is with the book of Hebrews…

    Hebrews 8:13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    The first is OBSOLETE, GROWING OLD AND VANISHING AWAY!

    Wow, how much more “literal” would one have to be? What an insult to the one who brought, confirmed and validated the New Covenant to state it will be done away with to re-introduce the old one that is, according to Hebrews, vastly inferior!

    Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

    Hebrews even quotes the Jer. passage to prove the point.

    7(L) For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

    Heb 8:8For he finds fault with them when he says:

    “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
    and with the house of Judah,
    9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
    on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
    For they did not continue in my covenant,
    and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

    The covenant involved the results of breaking the covenant…Lev 28 and Duet 26. Despite “every good and faithful promise” being fulfilled the breaking of the covenant comes with consequences…

    Let alone the fact that the Covenant was to include the Gentiles from the very beginning…

    Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

    Jesus cannot be any more clear in Matt 21 and 22. Even the Pharisees perceived He was speaking about them when He told them the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to another… The Pharisees could figure it out but Dispensationalist can’t?

    david

    http://low5point.wordpress.com/

  11. Hi Dave,

    Well, according to the best critical sources, Hebrews was written around A.D. 60. The Old Covenant was ready to pass away when Paul wrote, because the kingdom was still being offered to the “Jew first.” However, all of this changed in Acts 28. Once the Jews formally rejected Paul’s ministry, further fulfillment was postponed, and the Dispensation of the Mystery began (see Eph. 3). This Dispensation and calling were hid in God, and not revealed in the Old Testament. You are taking verses pertaining to the Acts Dispensation and applying them to the Dispensation which didn’t start until the Jews were temporarily set aside. For more info, I would highly suggest that you listen to my recent podcast on the “Last Days.”

    Brian

  12. Hi Polycarp,

    Wow, I’m sorry to hear that a mere Bible-study lesson on the “Last Days” would pose as a threat to your readers. Strangely, though, you don’t hesitate to quote Don Preston — a heretic who denies the Scriptural doctrine of the resurrection, and has spent most of his life combating the faith you apparently represent.

    Although our respective notions of Israel’s future differ like night and day, there is no need for us to be enemies. You are obviously one with a great zeal for the Lord — and I commend that. I only hope that you are not wilfully disregarding the Scriptures on this important topic. Christians gain nothing by robbing Israel of their promised blessings.

    Peace & Health,

    Brian

  13. Polycarp,

    I was unaware that Jeremiah 31: 31-40 was addressed to the church. It looks to me like the New Covenant was promised to Israel. The division between Israel and the church was confirmed by Paul, who said that the wild olive branches are grafted in among the natural branches, until the natural branches are regrafted by faith. The phrase “grafted in among” does not mean “replace.” Just because we partake of Israel’s spiritual things now does not mean that we inherited all the promises to the exclusion of the original heirs. This is a mischievous theology, which is really Gentilism in disguise.

    Brian

  14. Polycarp,

    Well, I see from your articles that you have a strong aversion to the literal fulfillment of Old Testament blessings, which were promised to Israel. But why do you take the curses literally? or do you appropriate the blessings, and leave the curses for the Jews?? I would hope that’s not the case.

    Paul identifies the Ephesian saints as former Gentiles, who have “drawn nigh” unto the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Christ (Eph. 2: 11-13). The context informs us that saved Gentiles partake of the covenant blessings made to Israel. Nowhere does Paul say that Israel’s covenant relations with God ceased. If that is the case, there is nothing left to “partake” of or “draw nigh” to.

    You can’t have a joint-body of “Jews” and “Gentiles” where no distinction exists between the two. The Jews who believed are still accounted Jews — because to them pertain the covenants and blessings (Rom. 9: 4). We partake of THEIR spiritual things (Rom. 15: 27). As Gentiles we become spiritual Jews by the finished work of Christ. But this doesn’t imply the permanent setting aside of Israel as a nation. Paul sees the present Day of Grace as a parenthetical period during which Israel’s fall has led to the “riches of the Gentiles” (Rom. 11: 11-12). But this period will end when “all Israel is saved.”

    Nothing good can come from robbing the Jews of their covenant blessings. Such theology would lead us back into the dark ages of pogroms, persecutions, and papal tyranny.

    Peace & Health,

    Brian

  15. Polycarp,

    Well, if you believe that God’s program to restore national Israel was changed, then you are embracing secular Gentilism — whether you realize it or not. None of the verses you are quoting disprove a literal fulfillment of the promises originally made to Israel. This is the point: the “new body” is formed of both Jews and Gentiles in the flesh. We become spiritual Jews, but are still grafted into Israel’s future hope. Abraham was a natural Jew, but He also looked for a heavenly city. Please read Romans 4: 16 when you have a chance. The promised seed includes both “they which are of the law” (natural Jews) and Gentiles who believe by faith. The Jews who believe by faith are still Jews. But they are Jews of the heavenly calling.

    Paul nowhere teaches that God’s program for national Israel has been annulled. When he says that “all Israel will be saved,” he quotes Isaiah 59: 20-21, which speaks of Israel’s future restoration. Paul’s whole argument in Romans 11 contradicts the idea that national Israel has been put away.

    “Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the fullness of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? … For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?” (Rom. 11: 12, 15).

    Paul is pointing out the benefits that accrued to the world through Israel’s fall. However, his argument is that greater benefit will result from their fullness. He is speaking of the unbelieving nation, and not the remnant. The remnant never “fell.” It was the nation that fell, and their fall brought about the salvation of the Gentiles. However, the same nation that now abides in unbelief will one day be saved, and this will bring about the Millennial reign of Christ, and the literal fulfillment of Old Testament promises.

    Peace & Health,

    Brian

  16. Brian, you let your thoughts shape your understanding of the Scriptures. And I am sure that you will say the same thing for me. You theology is new compared to the Truth which have falsely labeled ‘secular Gentilism’ – a term in itself funny and heretical. I have laid out the Truth, and there is nothing that I can do to help you see it. Israel has become the Church, opened for the Gentiles. My suggestion is for you to stop this false idolization of Israel and the Jews, and find the true and proper church, otherwise, we will keep giving each other the same Scriptures. I am up for it, but I am afraid that you will only further convince yourself, falsely, and allow me to further convince those that read this, correctly, of the true position.

  17. Personally, I don’t see the Church replacing Israel. Nor so I see the promises made to Israel as being transferred to the Church. I happen to think some promises are for national Israel; other promises for all who believe.

  18. I agree – all that have faith in God, before Christ came this included the promise of a future Messiah and since Christ came now requires faith in Christ as having paid the price for our sins, are members of the body of Christ, the Universal Church.

  19. I believe Gods people that are no people.A afflicted and poor people.Called gentiles and jews.Are spiritual Israel.Born again children of God.Israel lost its identity physically of it’s self.But the Lord knoweth them that are his.A hint.His people shall trust in the name of the Lord.Zeph 3:12

    Zeph 3:8 Nations are gathered and destroyed.
    Zeph 3:13 speaks of the remnant like Roman 9 does.
    Now here is the gathering of the elect.Which is called remnant,or tribes.Or israel.
    Ok the Lord shortens the days.Because he is going to burn the nations. Zeph 3:8 and REV 20:8 Destroy the earth with fire.Their is a fire coming before him. 2nd Thess 1:8
    Notice tribulation in 2 Thess 1:6 is for those that trouble you.You who?the believers,the remnant.
    2 Peter 3:10 speaks of the day of the Lord .ok now 2 Peter 3:13 where are they gathered to? a new heaven and a new earth. In REV 7:13 -14 here is a picture of the remanant coming out of great tribulation.You see how the Lord saves all his people before his wrath is poured out.skip from Rev 7 to Rev 21.We see Rev 20:15 book of life.In Rev 21:27 we see lambs book of life.
    All salvation that comes to Gods people in this life is because he made his vessels of mercy.He knows them all.Jew,Israel,greek,gentile etc,all these make up his remnant..Romans 9:23 says which he afore prepared unto glory. Romans 8:29 Foreknow. Ok now Acts 13:48 .we see ordained.Which means to appoint,decree,choose. 1st Peter 2:8 Some appointed to be disobedient.1st Thess 5:9 appointed us to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Here’s the remnant again,called the elect.2nd Timothy 2:10 .The elect are believers ,they are appointed,chosen generation,elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.(1st Peter 1:2)Peter wrote this to Strangers.You Know God sent Paul to preach the gospel all over,and Paul was a Apostle to the gentile office.Paul didn’t know who among the Gentiles was born again,whose ears God had opened or was going to open.Paul just went.Paul knew the terror of the Lord if he didn’t preach the gopel.For he said woe is me if i preach not the gospel.The Gospel will always be good news for a babe in christ,Like milk.Strong meat for the Elderly in Christ.It is words of faith in the Gospel we feast upon and grow thereby in the knowledge of Our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.Amen
    Give God the Glory for this study,Lewis

  20. How can I hate my brother, YtLoG? Whether they are Jew or Gentile, if they are in Christ, they are my brother. Thanks for the kind words and I hope we can continue the coversation.

  21. YtLoG,

    Many times, supercessionism is accused of promoting anti-semitism, which is what I referring to. All should have the chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, both Jew and Gentile.

    Wb, don’t get me wrong, I do not believe that all OT is fulfilled. (Not sure what you mean by that). In Luke, I believe that Christ was speaking about the literal city which has stones and can be destroyed, but will return to control of the Church (Zech 12) at the end of the age, when Jerusalem will be settled in Jerusalem again.

    As I said, I see Pentecost as the inauguration of the regathering and the ingathering, which at least for me, would remove the regathering at some distant time.

  22. I would answer that question with Zechariah,

    In that day,” says the LORD, “I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, “The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.’ In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place–Jerusalem. (Zechariah 12:4-6 NKJV)

    In my understanding, that means that at some point, the remnant of the Jews will find themselves fighting the Church, and will, due to God’s election, suddenly come to protect the Church.

    Israel, I would agree, is not grafted into the Church – Israel is the Church and the Church is Israel. According to Paul, together, we are one new man – Jews and Gentiles.

    Does that answer your questions?

    Remember, along with the Apostles judging the 12 tribes – the saints are to judge as well.

  23. Orange,

    The promises to National Israel have been fulfilled, or are in the process thereof. All promises of ‘gathering’ is the spreading of the Gospel and is taking place now, beginning at Pentecost. I would disagree with you a great deal concerning your application of the ‘times of refreshing’ as a future regathering of Israel, as I would see it as the Parousia.

    Isaiah 11 has been fulfilled. Allow me to cover that as a separate topic post tomorrow.

    I never said that their would not be twelve tribes, just that I understand the Remnant to be blinded until the Church is at death’s door. Having the 12 Tribes existent in eschatology does not deter from the fact that there is but one Body – compromised of Jew and Gentile. If there is a separation, then there is no Church.

  24. Brian, we are already under the New Covenant which was established by Christ on the cross, not by a return of the Jews to physical Israel. I do not think the Church ‘replaced’ Israel, but that Israel became the Church (Supercessionism.)

    Tell me, do you believe that King David will live forever as prince of Israel? Because if you understand David to mean anything else but the long dead King, then you have to understand the verse in similar light. David is Christ, and the land of Israel is the Church.

    Further, since this earth will pass away, the ‘for ever’ clause would be a lie considering that we will inherit a new earth. Brian, unless you rightly divide the Word of God, then you fill find many errors, lies, and contradictions.

  25. Brian,

    David will be among the saints in heaven, not as viceregent – I would like to see that one based in Scripture. The Old Cov. passed way with Christ. It was old and vanishing away when Jeremiah wrote what he did. Brian, part of my comment policy is to remove certain links that I feel are detrimental to those that come to this blog. I am removed your podcast because I feel that it falls into this category. The entire David as a ruler of God’s Kingdom is bogus, and denies the validity of Scriptural prophecy.

    ‘All Israel’ is a theological term that bares a bit more study than merely Romans 11. Further, in Romans, we find that those which are Jews are not longer those of the DNA of Jacob, but they are now those that are of the faith of Abraham. Israel as a nation is done.

  26. Brian,

    There is nothing gained by creating a separation between the Church and Israel, and they is only troublesome heresy involved in giving the promises of the Church back to national Israel when God has already taken them away. Facts are facts, Brian, whether Don says them or not.

  27. Brian, the New Covenant was addressed to the Church – the book of Hebrews makes this clear, that this New was to replace to Old. We know that the New created the Church.

    Paul never saw any division among in the Church between Jew and Gentile – read Ephesians. Anything else is a lie, and a heresy. It is not the Gentiles that inherited the promises, but the Church. There is but one body – and that body is both Jew and Gentile. That does not mean that the Gentiles replaced the Jews, but that the Jews and now the Gentiles reside in the Church, the one body, unified, and together.

    I would suggest, Brian, you stop following, and the more so, stop teaching, this Judaizing gospel. It will not end well for you.

  28. Brain,

    Such Truth did not give rise to the pogroms of Eastern Europe, humanity as a whole did. Try not to participate in such attacks on the Apostles or attempt to put on me the evil of purposed misinterpretation. I would hope that you are a better person, even in blindness, than that. Further, no one is robbing the Jews of anything – God took it away. Remember, ‘Jewishness’ was given to those that were inwardly circumcised – which is Baptism – and no longer according to DNA, therefore, you assumption is proved false.

    For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. (Romans 2:28-29 NKJV)

    The promises did not cease, nor Israel, Brian. Not sure how you are not getting this. It is not that the Church replaced Israel, or the Gentile the Jew, but Israel became the Church. (Remember, the Root is not Israel, it is God.) The Church is the one new man, the one body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile together in unity.

    Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:19-22 NKJV)

    And again,

    which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, (Ephesians 3:5-6 NKJV)

    But now the God kind of righteousness is clearly seen, and having nothing to do with the Law but having been testified to by the Law and the prophets; The righteousness of God is through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ — to all and upon all of them that believe, for there is no distinction (Romans 3:21-22 CTV-NT)
    For the scripture says: Everyone believing on him will not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is over all, being rich to all that call upon him. For whosoever will call upon the name of the LORD will be saved! (Romans 10:11-13 CTV-NT)

    The bible is clear, Brian. This is not robbing, but pure Apostolic truth.

    The curses are for those that disobey God. Gentile or Jew.

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