15 Reasons why Homosexuality is wrong and Hurts Society (are you kidding me?)


Warning… you are reading an older post. Check the comments where I state repeatedly that this is no longer my view. If nothing else, this post should serve as a reminder of the God-awful ways people view LGBT people, not as persons, but as inhuman, almost criminal, non-person animals. Such a rejection of the personhood of the LGBT individual is not a mark against them, but against those who either held or hold these views. 

The reason I keep it up is because of the conversation enshrined herein. Yes, Google AdSense may see it differently, but I do hope the censors at Google read it and see it for what it is. What was once anti-LGBT propaganda is now anti-anti-LGBT facts. 



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Homosexuality, even from a non-Christian worldview, is a harmful visitation on society, destructive, and sick:

1. Homosexuality injures the fabric of society, especially children.

A societal acceptance of same sex relationships gives vulnerable children the impression that same sex relationships are good, moral and healthy. Not only does the Bible condemn such behavior, but medical professionals have affirmed that these kinds of sexual relationships are unhealthy. A society that accepts immoral relationships cause children to stumble into immorality. Jesus Christ said that “if anyone causes one of these little one’s to stumble, (sin) it would be better if he put a mill stone around his neck and throw himself into the sea.” Matthew 18:6 Acceptance of these unnatural acts sets a society up for gender and sexual confusion, which brings about widespread immorality, which tears the family down

2. Homosexuality is anti procreation.

Logically speaking, if everyone’s sexuality was expressed heterosexually, then humanity will survive and perpetuate our own kind for generations to come. But simply put, if everyone’s sexuality was expressed homosexually, we would go extinct. Therefore homosexuality is counter productive to the survival of the human race.

3. Homosexuality does not offer the stability of a traditional family.

Children need the stability of a traditional family. Children need a real male Father and a female Mother for proper and healthy development. Naturally speaking, there is the necessity of each of the male and female contributions to a child’s life. (It has already been proven that boys without fathers end up in jail and practice destructive behaviors a great deal more than those who have fathers.) The vast majority of the public knows instinctively that it would be better if both parents are present in a child’s life. Once concealed research shows that a child who is brought up in a homosexual home may be more likely to engage in homosexuality. But is it loving to expose children to the predominantly damaging lifestyle of homosexuality? If homosexuality can be learned, what does that say about the argument that people are born that way?

4Homosexuals have a higher incidence of infidelity.

Defining a Homosexual relationship as loving and monogamous ignores the reality of same sex relationships. Many say that the premise on which we should accept same sex unions is that some of them are “loving, monogamous relationships.” Same sex unions may be loving and monogamous from a worldly viewpoint, but if they had “real godly love” they would not subject each other to unnatural sexual activity that leads each other into sin. When we lead others into sin, we are no longer walking in love.  In regards to homosexual monogamy, homosexuals remain faithful to one partner about 25% of the time. This is a much lower fidelity rate, than their heterosexual counterparts, which is 80%. It is not unusual for homosexuals to have hundreds of sexual partners in a life time.


Special Note: What kind of stability will be afforded a child who is exposed to that kind of change of a significant other? I also say this against those heterosexuals who also co-habitat, it is unkind to children to expose them to continual relationship changes.

5. Homosexuals have a shortened lifespan.

There is less likelihood that a same sex couple will even be alive to care for their child.  One of the reasons that Homosexual couples should not be able to adopt children or take in foster children is that according to many studies, the life span of homosexuals is much lower than that of heterosexuals. These tragic conditions create a much less stable home life for that child. Giving a foster or adopted child to homosexual parents is a form of relational child abuse. The child has been placed in a home in which the parents have an inherent shorter life span.

6. Homosexuals have a much higher incidence of domestic violence.

Children should not be exposed to the higher levels of domestic violence of homosexuals. Another reason that same sex couples should not care for foster or adoptive children is that same sex couples experience much higher levels of domestic violence than their heterosexual counterparts. Some studies show that the rate is at least three times higher than that of heterosexual couples. It seems unkind to force children to be exposed to this higher level of violence.

The book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence by two homosexual researchers “estimated that 650,000 homosexual men are victims of domestic violence each year, compared to figures from the FBI which showed that last year 1,300 hate crimes were reported.”

7. Homosexuals have a much higher rate of molestation than Heterosexuals

As much as 33% of child molestation is committed by homosexuals, and yet they only make up about 3% of our population. To allow homosexual couples to adopt children puts the children at greater risk of molestation.


8. Homosexuality is not condoned in the Bible.

Acceptance of homosexuality in any form whether married or not has never been condoned in the Holy Scriptures of the Bible.  There is absolutely no evidence in the 6000 year history of the Holy Bible of the wedding of homosexual couples. Homosexuality is even condemned to the point of receiving the death penalty. Leviticus 20:13 Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul clearly taught that any immoral act was unacceptable before God. Popular opinion cannot change the fact that any immoral acts are an affront to the holy nature of God and His design. Those who are involved in these things are actually under the judgment of God. Romans 1:22-27, 32. 1Timothy 1:8-11 and  1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Jesus Christ also condemns all forms of immorality in Matthew 15:19. (The word Jesus uses in this passage for “immorality” is unlawful lust, or desire. (Consider this, that Jesus Christ, because He is the Word of God, God incarnate, wrote the very Law that condemns homosexuality) Leviticus 18:22, 20:13.  The Apostle Paul states that the Law was meant for the unrighteous and he states that homosexuality is one of those unrighteous acts. 1Timothy 1:8-11.

Many proponents of homosexuality cite a passage in Ezekiel as proof that the destruction of Sodom was not because of homosexuality. But Ezekiel 16:49-50 actually shows that the progressive sin of Sodom was ultimately the committing of abominations. V.50. Homosexuality was considered an “abomination” throughout the Old Testament, (morally abhorrent act) In the New Testament, Jude 1:7 Confirms the sin of Sodom was this gross immorality, men wanting to have sex with the men who had visited Lot in Sodom.

Some have said that the word “homosexual” was not even in the Bible when Paul wrote it. But the word does describe behavior that is relevant to homosexuals. There are two words used whenever homosexual is used by Paul the Apostle. In the literal sense the two words together speak of “male sexual cohabitation.” In modern terms it is describing the same sex relationship.

The passage by Paul the Apostle in Romans 1:22-27 is without a doubt a condemnation of same sex relations as it describes those who burn with passion for the same sex..

Homosexuality is condemned in the first and last books of the Bible, (Genesis 19:4-7 and Revelation 21:8, 22:15) which shows there is a consistent message throughout the entire Bible that condemns that kind of behavior.  That would explain why there is not one incident of homosexual marriage in the Bible.  And lest anyone put a broad stamp of approval of all heterosexual sexual relationships, heterosexual sexual relations are only acceptable within the bonds of marriage. Having sex outside of marriage with the opposite sex is equally abhorrent to God’s holiness and design for the family.

Special note: Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:11 that “such were some of you, denoting the fact that some of those caught in adultery or homosexuality were able to overcome it, by the power of Christ! Forgiveness is available to anyone who is willing to repent (turn completely around) and put their faith in Christ for salvation. Jesus Christ indeed died for the sins of the homosexual that they might be saved.

9. Homosexuals want to redefine marriage, changing the uniqueness of heterosexual marriage.

The homosexual community does not just want acceptance for same sex marriage, they want to redefine marriage. Should it not seem odd that the definition of the institution of marriage, as being between a man and woman, for the past 6000 years is being thrown out for something less than what is natural and stable?  The agenda of same sex marriage proponents is to redefine marriage altogether which undermines the most stable form of marriage as being between one man and one woman.

10. Homosexual marriages will lead to other “unnatural” unions

Defining marriage as acceptable when it is simply ‘loving and monogamous’ is highly problematic and leads to gross immorality. If we allow “loving and monogamous” relationships to be the standard by which we measure a legitimate marriage then I suppose that women could marry their horses or men could marry their pet dogs. This opens the door for any number of illegitimate relationships, including 52 year old men marrying 10 year old girls, brothers marrying sisters and mothers marrying sons. The movement for bestiality, which is sex with animals, has already defined their relationships to their animals based on the very language of the homosexual movement, that theirs is an alternative lifestyle and that their relationships are loving and monogamous. But lists these kinds of sexual relationships as a grave sin in Leviticus 18:22-23.  Interestingly, the sin of homosexuality is listed just before the sin of bestiality in that passage.

Same sex marriage opens up a wide door of acceptance for any kind of marital relationship which is damaging to the sanctity of marriage. Whereas real love in its purest form as defined in 1 Corinthians 13:6,   does not rejoice in unrighteousness.

Same sex relationships encourage a lifestyle that will keep one out of the kingdom of God, which puts us at odds with God Himself as sinning against Him and outside of God’s order for the family.


11. Homosexual marriage is not a “right”.

Keeping same sex couples from marrying is not discrimination. Keeping same sex couples from marrying is keeping them from discriminating against what is normal. Anymore than I feel discriminated against because I cannot marry my sister. Discrimination based on good judgment is a protection for the stability of society and the upholding of unalterable morals. A government allowing them to marry would be endorsing the unnatural.  Equal protection under the law was never meant to protect the enjoyment of what is immoral or harmful.

Equal protection regarding marriage means that anyone, who is a single, adult, can marry another single adult person of the opposite sex as long as it is not their relative. Besides, sexual orientation is only a behavior and not a fixed condition like race.  No one would agree that you can change your race, because that is something that is strictly defined by your genes.  Whereas there are tens of thousands who have overcome their same sex lifestyle to live out their lives the way God created them to be heterosexuals.  To give an immoral behavior a protected status or special rights makes society a proponent of that behavior, thus harming society as a whole.

12. Homosexual relationships are dangerously unhealthy.

Same sex relations deny some of the most basic fundamentals of proper mechanical applications of using their genitalia. Anal sex and lesbian sex is a misuse of what sexual relations were primarily intended to produce, children and intimacy solely between a man and a woman.  Doctors agree that anal sex is a dangerous, unhealthy form of sexual contact as the anal cavity was not intended for that kind of use. Therefore, even with heterosexual couples this activity is not safe.

13. God did not intend for same sex relationships to exist.

Genesis 2:18-24 says that after God created Adam, He decided to take a rib out of Adam so that Adam might have someone who was “suitable for him.” (v.18).The word in the Hebrew is “neged” which means a “counterpart or opposite”, for Adam. Even the word heterosexual implies an intentional joining of two different parts that are meant to go together.  ‘Hetero’ in the Greek language means “the other of two.”

Consider this that God being all knowing would have pulled out 2 ribs if he thought that Adam should have the option of having a male mate as well. God would have also pulled out a rib from Eve so that she could have a female lover, if that was a godly option. But that is not what God intended from the beginning. He made them “male and female” that they would be joined. No other variation is acceptable in the Holy Scriptures.

We were created in the image of God. Homosexual relations are an affront to the very nature that we were meant to express, from that image we were made into. “He made them male and female. In the image of God did He create them.” God did not create quasi-males or quasi females. He made them to be either male or female. (In the instance of hermaphrodites, those children born with both genitalia, this is an expression of the fallen nature as with any other disease. This is not an endorsement from God for quasi female or males.)  We are told to flee immorality and that those who are immoral have sinned against their own body, thus they do harm to themselves. (1 Corinthians 6:18).

14. Homosexuality is not genetic.

Homosexuals are not born homosexual as studies of identical twins confirm this fact.  Studies have shown that identical twins could each have different sexual orientations, thus showing that homosexuality has little if anything to do with genetics. On the average, when one identical twin is homosexual, the other twin is homosexual 38% of the time. This does not give much credence to the popular notion that homosexuality is genetic.

Even if there were a predisposition to a given behavior, this should not mean that one has license to practice that behavior. Predispositions to alcoholism, adultery, drugs, pornography or even homosexuality have more to do with our sin nature.  All of these behaviors have been shown to be controlled by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by denying our self and having the power of the Holy Spirit in one’s life.  This fact has been confirmed in the myriad of testimonies of those who were saved in Christ from their sinful life of homosexuality.  Those who affirm that it is just their nature or that they were born that way are only admitting that they are controlled by their sin nature and do not know how to be freed or do not want to be freed.

15. Homosexuals should not be given benefits of marriage.

Same sex couples should not be rewarded with the benefits of marriage, because immoral behavior should not be rewarded. It is not a matter of rights or fairness, if the act is immoral, why should that be praised or rewarded?  Most do not think that adulterers or fornicators should be rewarded alimony or benefits.  Should any sin be tolerated or promoted with benefits? Those who want the benefits of marriage should comply with the intent of the Creator that intended only marriage, between one man and one woman. Feelings for fairness do not determine what is right or moral or you will have moral anarchy. The reason heterosexual married couples are rewarded benefits is that society recognizes this as the best kind of relationship for stability and perpetuation of human kind.

Post By Joel Watts (10,051 Posts)

Joel L. Watts holds a Masters of Arts from United Theological Seminary with a focus in literary and rhetorical criticism of the New Testament. He is currently a Ph.D. student at the University of the Free State, analyzing Paul’s model of atonement in Galatians. He is the author of Mimetic Criticism of the Gospel of Mark: Introduction and Commentary (Wipf and Stock, 2013), a co-editor and contributor to From Fear to Faith: Stories of Hitting Spiritual Walls (Energion, 2013), and Praying in God's Theater, Meditations on the Book of Revelation (Wipf and Stock, 2014).

Website: → Unsettled Christianity

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422 thoughts on 15 Reasons why Homosexuality is wrong and Hurts Society (are you kidding me?)

  1. ***? you think homosexuality is so sick? what do you know? i love how you b******* think that homosexuality is some “choice”, that we choose to be this way. ha. right. like we CHOOSE to be critisized and put down by the majority of the population. we are continually beat to the ground and have s*** thrown in our face. after all that, you think we choose to be this way. well you are some ignorant f****. it’s not a choice. deal with it.

    • Hi, I would really want to know from someone homosexual how it is that you know you are i.e what do you look for in other people, does it give you a kick when you look at guys instead of girls, and from what age does it strike you?

      I must be frank, have taken a lot of verbal abuse although I’m dead straight myself..May just be an image thing…

      • WELL, first of all I wanna tell u that my whole family is straight (accept me :P) how do u know your straight? obviously, you’re attracted to women, okay, cool, SO AM I. can we both just agree women are hot and move on with our lives?
        I’ve known I was bi since…..forever. I had a crush on a girl in first grade :P
        lol “does it give me a kick”? well, if you mean I just do it cause it’s fun and not because I’m actually attracted to them, then no, I guess not. I see that special girl the same way you do, drop dead gorgeous, and has an amazing personality.
        any more questions?

      • You know you’re gay in the exact same way a straight person like yourself knows you’re straight – you just know. It’s no different.

        As a kid, I always just assumed I was straight because I heard trash like this article all the time. I knew I wasn’t a disgusting person and a weirdo. So I assumed I had to be straight, as apparently only disgusting, weird people were gay. But I can recall even as a young girl, having had crushes on my female friends in elementary school. I grew up ignoring those crushes because I didn’t think I could possibly be gay and spent many years unhappily dating men. Like I mentioned earlier – apparently only weird people were gay, so I assumed I had to be straight. But my relationships with men felt all wrong. It wasn’t gross or anything, but it certainly didn’t feel right or comfortable. Much like you would feel forcing yourself to date someone of the same sex – it would just feel wrong – not natural to you. That’s why straight people always try to say it’s so unnatural. Because to them, it is. They’re only looking at it from only their own perspective. They don’t realize that gay people feel the exact same way about being straight as you do about being gay.

        Everyone should be allowed to be with whoever makes them happy. And if that’s the same sex or the opposite sex, who cares? People should never feel compelled to pretend yo he someone they’re not for simple fear of societal repercussions.

        I hole this answered your question.

    • Well actually it is a choice,and I’ve had what I thought crushes on other girls but it was actually just admiring them for how they handled things and wishing i could be like them. I’m not a lesbian, I am straight and also I don’t hate homosexuals but I do think its wrong. Just like I don’t hate criminals but what they do is wrong. It’s just like how crime is a choice and they know that they are going to be criticized by many but they still do it. Everything we do is a choice. And even if homosexuality was a “natural” thing then they should be able to give birth right?

        • sure it might be a God made nature..but are you forgetting the fact that God has already told us what is right and what is wrong.. if you still do it knowing it is wrong you will get hate. And if what you’re doing is also putting effect on others around you like little children watching a gay parade with men wearing ladies underwear and make up. Than f*** that hope a bomb goes off in that parade if kids get to see that. I don’t want my children to see any type of f***ed up s***like that. Whatever they do good or bad i don’t give a s*** But leave their d*** sucking and making out at home. There are more straight people who don’t wanna see that stuff..Even at the office this gay dude shows up in a circle of straight men and starts discussing about how he ju**led his Bf’s balls last night. i mean we are straight men with gfs and wives. WE DON’T WANNA LISTEN TO STUFF RELATED TO YOU AND YOUR PARTNERS SEXLIFE!

          • scripture tells us to make sure our conversations are yay and nay, to avoid profanity/vulgarity. It would appear you didn’t read that part.

          • There are loads of stuff that God told us to do that we don’t or isn’t true i.e. the role of women, the Earth is flat, its the centre of the universe etc. Its called using your brains as you have been given. Its called being logical and thinking out of your conditioned closed minded self. If you don’t want to hear about someone’s life then don’t listen or walk away or suggest to them that the adult conversation is inappropriate as it would be for a straight person to be talking about it.

            GOD did not write the rules, MAN did. And most of the stuff in all these books are for the convenience of man rather than what actually leads anyone on a spiritual journey of themselves and the universe.

        • lol I am a Muslim and in my book it doesn’t state that the earth is flat. It states right about women as well and now i am sure you will probably start with the bullshit that i am a terrorist and Islam teaches terrorism all of that BS your country has sold to you like they sold the BS about homosexuality to you blind Americans or British whatever you are. My book taught us the human embryo process way before any scientists discovered it. It also proved the seven layers around the earth decades before scientists discovered it. It has Also proven other things being wrong like why Pork is not to be eaten and how unhealthy it is. I don’t really take the bible as a book of revelations now cause bible has been fabricated through out the years and is more like a man made scripture now. I do believe in Jesus Christ and know that he was a messenger of God just like Moses, Ibrahim, Mohammad etc. Even people saying Jesus is the son of god or God’s reincarnation is something outrageous.

          But when it comes to homosexuality. I really don’t apply any religious points to prove it wrong cause in the 21st Century religion is so called not a part of it. But homosexuality is just wrong and i say this out of logic and understood it when i studied about it in psychology and my sociology class. It is like some kind of disorder rather than being a natural thing. Most straight men turn gay after they go to prison. Is that a choice or is that where there gay side awakens? and even it it did awaken there and that is a really bade place for the awakening of it lol. To me being gay is just another weird fetish and a abnormal level of being perverted. Or other cases Its a psychological effect due to being raised under one parent, getting hurt by woman( pretty rare thought), or having more female members around the house or only male members in his surrounding like if you send your son to an all boys school till he turns 19, i will bet a 1000$’s that he will come back a homo. Other harsh reasons can be that being molested in his childhood ( you do know that studies have show most lesbians hate men and turn lesbian because they were molested when they were young by men which put a psychological scar on them cause of which they fear men and don’t feel comfortable around them) . . I won’t call it a criminal act but an illness which needs help and cure.

          The same homo dude that i told you about got pushed by this guy who was also friends with me back in the office because that gay used to harass him like spanking him when he was off guard. He hated it but kept calm about it cause he though that the gay dude is just fooling around with him until one day when that gay dude caught him alone in the restroom talking to his Girlfriend and right after he hangs up this gay dude goes like i can suck it better than her if you give me a chance which pissed him off and he pushed him and told him to stay away from him. The other day the cops showed up on him and reported him for being a gay basher and also people at the office also started acting like complete assholes and were sympathizing with that faggot. They are giving more rights than normal rights given to normal citizens even though they have chosen a disgusting path. I won’t let any gay person come at my home or get close to me or my children. If you people highlight the word ‘choice’ when it comes to homosexuality Than this is my choice and no one should have a problem with that. Even when i read those dumb slogans that go like “some people are gay…Deal with it” next time i see something like that I will spray paint right under it “that some people dislike gays..deal with that as well.” lol

          • First, watch the language.

            Second, there is nothing Islamic in your writing.

            I’m glad you took a class or two, but this doesn’t make an argument. Your jumbled mess makes it difficult to take point by point, but I suspect this has something to do either with a serious lack of education or your are repressing a serious emotional attachment to the topic. If the latter is true, then may your find your true self.

          • then this * i am sure you are smart enough to point out that while you are typing you get carried away and forget about spelling or using of proper grammar while typing lol.. and i respect you being an atheist cause that can actually be considered as a valid choice cause this is how you choose to see life. But being gay is far different from this.

          • I never said I was an atheist. I do, on occasion, misspell a word and the such; however, what you lack goes beyond this.

            I suspect you are attached to the subject emotionally. This is called repression, an affliction most homophobic people suffer with.

          • Hey Ship,

            I don’t know what psychology or sociology classes you took because I took both classes and was not taught the things that you have been. And the only logic behind being gay as wrong is being unable to procreate, that too if you believe that the only reason behind human life is to have offspring. I have nothing against Islam or any religion. All of them are beautiful in their own way but what people fail to remember is that these books were written by mankind and not by God himself. All of these were written in the perception of that time by society then.

            There are many things in the Quran that are taken out of context and used in the wrong way. In terms of women, where once Islam and Hinduism treated women with respect and honour is no longer the case, also I believe it is in Islamic faith that women who get raped, the man who raped her has to marry the victim. Where is the logic in that? Plus this notion that women are bad and distract men and therefore must be covered up? Also. that for a woman to testify against a man she must have what 3-4 witnesses? Also, a man is allowed to hit his wife if she does wrong like you would a child- both are wrong.

            Religious books give us a good base in terms of spirituality, i.e the Quran stating that we should perform prayers 5 times a day to ensure that we remember God and our purpose in life- like meditation which is pretty interesting. But again the base of which each religion has been written has been lost time ago.

            I also don’t know where you are getting your statistics from in terms of gay people either being abused, going to an all boys school, as a result of going to prison, hating men etc. In reality, those populous is a major minority in contrast to the majority. Yes, there are feminists, who have become such due to the way women have been treated for centuries, funny enough these women are not all gay!! As for being raped by men in prison… yeah no, being raped doesn’t then make you turn gay. I don’t get the logic behind that at all. I work with teenagers who have been raped or molested by the opposite sex, and many of them are straight, bisexual and funny enough the bisexual girls keep trying to forge a relationship with the opposite sex.

            The term homophobia, is a vast word, its not meaning that you go oh no i need to hide under the covers cuz someone is gay- as someone would do if they are scared of the dark. But its a fear of not understanding, because for a very long time we have been conditioned to believe life to be a certain way and time has taught us that there is far more to life than we know or probably will ever know in this lifetime.

            Religion, is basically politics, its a way to control people. The fundamentals of Godliness doesn’t really exist anymore. God gave us a brain and unfortunately we don’t even use if efficiently or in the right way. Yeah, you have a choice how you want to think about gay people or inviting them in your home, but interestingly enough all religions teach us to be tolerant, human, loving, forgiving, non judging people… guess you missed out on that part of the Quran.

          • I will take that $1000 bet.

            anyway I wish you all the best, regardless of your sexual orientation.

          • Oh, you little bastard. You’re so ignorant it’s funny, & this coming from a 16 yr old who is lesbian, I wasn’t molested & it certainly wasn’t a choice, I knew I liked girls since I was 5, & when I was 10 ‘I kissed A Girl’ was my anthem, because I knew I was emotionally & physical attracted to woman & that was gonna change, sure I dated a guy, that lasted a month, maybe? I felt nothing & don’t give me ‘he wasn’t the right one’ no guy was, I’d have pictures of the Christina Aguilera (da bae YASSS slay) & other woman around my room while girls had Taylor Launter, Justin Bieber, ect. I can’t change, & a miss reading of the bible sure as hell won’t or your stupid-ass opinion. Stay pressed, Bigot! Btw the way “the guy’s In makeup” are called DragQueens, get educated.

        • hmm guess i was wrong about my last comment about you being smart and understanding the fact that making a spelling mistake is not that much of a big deal that you would actually point it out lol.. but ok. I think its you who needs to find yourself cause you haven’t chosen an actual belief and way of life to follow. Cause being atheist is just like a book with blank pages lol sorry if this offends you take care you God have his blessings on you and help you open your eyes. Ameen. < not a spelling mistake. That is what we muslims say.

        • homophobic? lol so when someone starts reasoning about how wrong homosexuality is. He has a phobia? and you are actually judging my smarts because you are not able to comprehend, accept and swallow what i am saying? lol this is what i love about you gay supporters. In the end you call us homophobic and think you won the argument or debate. I think you are gay yourself because so far you really can’t find any valid reasoning in it. And yes everything i said made sense. But a it will probably be hard for you to comprehend cause like i said you atheists are like books with blank pages. lol You guys actually believe that humans evolved from being dust particles lol or how later on they evolved from monkeys? Maybe your brain didn’t evolve properly and you were still left with the brain of a monkey. You should read what you have posted so far. It will be clear who is making sense and has proper reasoning. A person who has valid points over proving something wrong or a person who just calls something a choice and sticks to that point like a bubble gum stuck to your pubes. I wasted allot of time typing so much over a person who is not even smart enough to throw back a decent reply with some logic added to it. I am done. Have argued with enough idiots for today. Later blank book lol.

          • you aren’t providing a reason. You are giving long, run on sentences filled with subjective anecdotes. Because your reasoning is based on yourself, I think you are repressing something.

        • ahan and what have you been doing in all of this debate? lol whatever man its you who is surpassing your homosexuality. Time to awaken it boy. time to get out of the closet lol

        • I am not religious, but so long as gays keep the f**k away from me, I aren’t really concerned. But it just seems so…. wrong.

          • I did read the full article and my question was directed at Deborah. Being straight or gay is not just about sex, but if we are just going to look at sex.. if you really make a conscious effort to engage in straight sex you are definitely gay and I feel sorry for both you and your partner, because really you would rather be shagging someone else and that’s not fair on anyone.

          • Oh Holly, this was sarcasm. My opinions have changed considerably since posting this as the ‘gospel truth.’

            Indeed, there are choices in sexuality and then there are non-choices.

            I think homophobia is a generally a choice, however

          • Ok, I was wondering whether it was sarcasm or not. My opinion is that homophobia is down to lack of education and upbringing. It would be nice if you wrote about what changed your stance on this issue, as it might give people food for thought and help educate people. Well done on opening your mind to this issue.

          • I have, several times. I’ve posted several links to this new reality at the top of the post and in the new comments.

            Scripture changed my mind, oddly enough. Only when I took it seriously did I change my mind.

          • Just read your new post. I didn’t go to the link before as I thought that this would lead straight to your comments. It is very nicely written and Its nice to see that scripture is what lead to your change of heart. God made all of us the way we are, and everyone deserves to be loved as He does.

          • @ Holly…. Soooo you think Homophobia is due to a lack of education and terrible upbringings? So if you had acrophobia or a fear of heights it’s due to a lack of education or upbringing? Of course it is not. Let’s talk about a lack of upbringing… Was you taught that you should look for a same-sex partner? Probably not. Is it true that we are nto A-sexual? Sure it is. Can same-sex couples in pregnate one another? No. It’s pretty black/white. Humans make the grey areas! This recognition of same-sex marriage has really opened a can of worms or Pandora’s Box! What is going to happen when Bi-sexuals have this same argument with the courts, arguing that you gave homosexuals the same rights as heterosexuals, so why can’t Bi-sexuals have the same rights? They would want a husband and a wife. Can we say THREESOME, LOL. I know it isn’t a funny matter, but as you see it’s easily getting out of hand due to technicallities. I just can’t grasp how the norm ever got unnormal? I have a friend in the army and he said that gay/lesbian couples get an extra 10 days of leave(vacation) to go and get married. I have a problem with that. If they want to be treated as equal, then why are there being extra rules made for them? Every military member gets 30 days a year. If a heterosexual couple has to plan their leave accordingly, then that doesn’t make any sense at all. The NORMALCY of the world is being flipped upside down. First, enough people argued that weed should be legal, now same-sex marriage, so what’s NEXT? It seems that if there is a group with enough people to make the necessary noise that the government will entertain any idiotic idea… Which leads me to believe that politics plays a major part in what is socially accepted today. There should be 0 arguments when the question of should a man be allowed to marry another man or vice versa. It goes beyond religious beliefs, science, and psychological findings. What happened to common sense? Yes same-sex marriages are a MOCKERY of what marriage is suppose to be. The same thing happened to ROME. It’s society spun out of control and collapsed from the “INSIDE” due to social toleration. If we don’t learn from history then we are doomed to repeat it! Bill Clinton nor Obama served a day in the U.S military, so it’s easy to say that homosexuals should be allowed to join the military, which I agree with in theory…. However, common sense wise it doesn’t make any sense for men to run around with the mannerisms of a woman and vice versa. Military is about decent order, perception, and standards. My friend in the army said that in Basic training that they take showers in an open bay…. So if you had 20 troops, and half were hetero and the other homo, why should the hetero be thrusted into the shower with the same-sex that are attracted to thier packages? If that’s the case then why not just have everyone shower with everyone? Men and women! I know… It’s getting ridiculous again right??? MESSAGE! Women don’t want to be stared at by men as if they were a piece of meat. So why is it cool that normal men should be forced into that situation? I’m not a homophobic, nor do I entertain homosexuality. I will teach my kids that a Man should be with a Woman, PERIOD. Physically we are made for each other. There is no debating that from a religious, scientific, or psycholigical angle. What happened to COMMON SENSE? If parents fail to teach their children basic anatomy and why a boy is different from a girl then I 100% agree with you about the lack of upbringing! It’s as simple as that. Boys have a Penis and girls have a Vagina. How can that be simplified anymore?

          • Hi G,
            Yes I do think that homophobia is down to lack of education, but I didn’t say it was down to terrible upbrining, that was your interpretation. I said upbringing. For me that means that children are taught to live life a certain way, within certain “rules”. And if you look at all those rules and how times have changed since, a lot of those rules were never even right, for example, the rights of women, coloured people- namely black, that people should live their lives to work, have children retire. That’s what I meant when I said homophobia is also down to upbringing.
            Secondly, I don’t even know how you can compare acrophobia to homophobia. But I will amuse you in your argument. If someone has acrophobia, what does that mean? Well by definition it means that they have an extreme and/or irrational fear of heights. Yes, I said irrational. I am scared of heights, but personally for me, I have been able to challenge my fears a lot to the point where I have been able to go paragliding. Being homophobic is the same thing, it’s IRATIONAL. For whatever reason a person is acrophobic, there is a cure for it, challenging yourself and learning about what actually makes you afraid (they did a show on this- can’t remember the name, but they used this methodology and more). I’m afraid of the dark, I always have been. Yet, when I can I do challenge myself, or tell myself good stuff to face it, other times I cannot. Does this make height or darkness BAD like people such as yourself are suggesting that homosexuals are Bad?? Absolutely not.
            I was not taught to look for a same sex partner of course not, I was conditioned to believe that men and women should be together. I battled with my own sexuality for a long long time. And the scary aspect of it, I was too scared to talk about it with anyone until I was 25 years old. And for me, I would never wish that on any person. I wouldn’t teach my kids to look for any specific gender. If they are straight they are straight and I would educate them on safe sex, healthy relationships. If my child was gay, I would educate them on safe sex and healthy relationships the same.
            I find this whole context of marriage quite amusing. What is marriage? And I mean apart from having children- because there are a lot of heterosexual couples who can’t have children or don’t and I doubt you think that they should not have the right to get married right? And apart from the obvious that gay couples cannot impregnate each other, there are other means of having children you know? Just like infertile heterosexual couples: IVF and adoption. But really, what is the meaning of marriage? To me, it is to make a vow to the person that you love that you will support them and be with them for the rest of each other’s lives. It also gives them the protection under law for children, assets etc. It is NOT a closed box which is for procreation, if it was, well then there are A LOT of heterosexual couples that should not be allowed to get married.
            Your lack of education speaks volumes in you talking about bisexual people. How many bisexual couples do you know that have BOTH a female AND male partner? While there are some that pander in this, not ALL Bisexuals feel the need to have BOTH gender partners, actually it’s pretty rare. And even if this were true of all bisexual people (WHICH IT IS NOT), Muslim men are allowed to marry 4 women, so why can’t a person marry both genders??? Heck, why can’t a woman marry 4 men?? (I don’t know who the hell would want to do any of these, but heck if people want a headache… then that’s THEIR headache).
            Joking aside, let me give you the definition of bisexuality: people that are attracted to both genders. Now while everyone has their own moral compass into what that means to them. It comes down to these individuals NOT seeing gender when falling in love with whomever they choose to be with. Most bisexuals are monogamous, and that being said, if that person falls in love with the opposite sex they are in a straight relationship and if they get married to that person its all good. IF they fall in love with the same sex, they would be with them. Period, end of story. Right now, bisexuals fight is to be recognised the same as a transgender individuals want to be recognised. I get that its hard to wrap one’s mind around it, but people make this so difficult. Life is by far black and white and it’s a shame you see it that way. Your right, same sex marriage has opened a can of worms, I would like to think that it makes people question life in general. The things we were taught and how true they really are. I mean at one time, it was black and white that the Earth is flat, and well now we know that is not!
            I don’t know much about the army rules, though I have a few that have been in the army and navy so I will check out the argument about extra time off. I agree with you on that, gay people should not be given special treatment. As for the shower thing, I personally think that people should have their own privacy when naked. So I don’t agree with the same shower policy. But I guess here people have to use their own moral compass. When I was in school, we had the same open shower business. I personally never used them, and at that age, I was finding myself attracted to other girls and for me, I just kept me to myself and got myself out of the bathroom as fast as possible.
            As for religious beliefs on the subject… Well I am far from religious, I would say that I am spiritual. I don’t believe in man- made books. And even if you want to go down the religious road, first and foremost, God taught people to love one another, to not judge and not inflict their own views on people. And religious people always miss that vital point. We missed that vital point when we said women have no business being out of the home, making her voice heard etc, we missed that point when we said that white people are superior to coloured. It always reminds me of Life of Brian, if you haven’t watched it, think you might learn something from it. We live life, with the tools and knowledge that we have. Do you know that humans only use 10% of their brain?? Just think outside the box for a moment. What do you REALLY know about life? What is REALLY our purpose?? You misinterpreted me when you suggested that I said that homophobia is down to terrible upbringing. I actually meant something completely different to what you suggested. Isn’t it possible that you are misinterpreting what the Bible is telling you? No? How can you be sure? God did not come down and speak those words to you, it was written in a book by mankind, and just as we all have our own interpretations on what we read and see, it doesn’t mean that those interpretations are right.
            I’m sure I’m going to get an ear full after this, but hey, to me its always good. Debates, discussions, it helps us all learn something, think of something more. I hope that before you reply, you just give time to ponder on what I have said. Just think about it with an open mind. What you teach your children is your choice. I just hope that you teach your children to love themselves for whoever and whatever they are. For them to have the courage to be themselves and not a version of someone else. No one has the real answers for life. We came on this planet with nothing, and we learn everyday something new to add to our tool box. If we live in a box, we never experience anything outside of that, and the world is such a beautiful place to miss out on it.
            Take care mate.

          • Hi Holly,
            You use one of my favorite words…. I was very amused by your reply. Let’s start with my lack of education shall we? I am probably 15 years your elder at a minimum. I have two Master’s Degrees and I teach Humanities and US History. No offense taken because this is a blog and for all you know I could be a teenager. What is also amusing is how people defend what is unnatural. To say that there are other ways to have children is a lie. It’s a con or should I say loop hole. To compare a same-sex couple with a REGULAR couple that can’t conceive due to a medical defect is the strangest argument that I’ve EVER HEARD! It makes you sound uneducated because most people understand how children are conceived between the ages 6-9. When you have to make EXCUSES to ways that same sex couples can obtain children, not have children its tomfoolery! I had a student in term 2, that wrote about a family member getting married to her girlfriend that has a daughter. The family member cannot have children, but she still produces eggs. She is going to have her egg implanted into her spouse, then her spouse’s brother is going to use his sperm to fertilize the egg, so his sister can carry the family member’s child. To make a long story short, it’s one of the craziest and absurd things I’ve heard of. Science has made this possible. It simply means that we are not a-sexual and a woman needs a man to procreate! Period. Their is 0 arguing the fact! That fact alone makes homosexuality UNATURAL. You know not NORMAL.
            I noticed that you said you would teach your kids about safe sex. Yet you would fail them by not telling them the truth? Men are for Women! It’s funny because you consistently preach about educating. What type of parent would you or any other parent if they omitted the truth from their children?!? I was a social worker for 5 years prior to teaching. I’ve seen sooo many children and young adults lost in this world. The main reason in my opinion was in lack of stability at home. There are a lot of single parent households today. Of course there are a lot of dead beat dads in the world but the women have taken on a new role in the household . I’m not really sure when it happened but they feel that since they are educated and make great money that they do not need a man. I commend women for being strong! We have come a long way with sexism and racism. How would you classify homosexuals? What category does that fall into? God intended it to be a man and a woman because they both bring something to the table to instill in their children. Men and women have different logic. It’s not an absolute statement because with anything their seems to always be exceptions. I do agree with you somewhat about faith and the good book. My problem with it is that MAN Wrote it. The original bible was written in Hebrew and probably is no where close to the book today. Most religons are Christian based. The truth is people created spinoff religons. You hit the nail on the head when you said ior alluded to people having different interpretations. I guess life itself with different experiences help mold your thoughts and beliefs and also what you perceive to be right and wrong. If you get away from religion, how about good old COMMON SENSE? My personal experience is that women are more open sexually due to how they are built. A women will entertain anything as long as you can have her ear and trust. Men not so much. Speaking of that, you said a lot about bisexuals…. You seem to have a vast knowledge about most bisexuals. I’m not sure where you are from but have you ever left your state? To live somewhere else? You said mate so maybe you are from England or Australia, who knows. They spell words like color with the u. I speak or use to speak 3 different languages, I have lived in 4 different countries. I am very well travelled. In the US, I grew up in the South, but I’ve lived in 6 different states. So when you say most, please understand that you are speaking about the people where you are at. I hope that you aren’t saying anything about “most” and haven’t lived outside the place you grew up or outside the state that you was raised in. If that’s the case then maybe it is you that is stuck in a box. I have three sisters and they have gay and bi friends. I agree that usually they have been in a monogamous relationship when they wanted to be in a relationship. When they were moonlighting as socialites(single), nothing was off limits. They had group sex regardless if it was two guys or two girls. I was simply saying that since this law was passed I believe someone will eventually fight for more. If i desired men and women and found people that would be ok with it I would fight the fight along the exact same lines. Technically the constitution would be discriminating against my beliefs. You said that Muslims have multiple wives. Did you know that Mormons practice polygamy in the US, even though it illegal? In Mormom communities you even have group marriages which is very strange. You haven’t been around that long to experience anything that has change the US for the better in the last 50 yrs. So when I hear you talk about the laws against the blacks makes me laugh because their skin complexion that they were born with not a conscience choice that they made to be with a mirror image of themselves, I am heterosexual and I’ve made that choice every day. It is a choice. For example, I wasn’t into black or Asian women and my choice was to date only white women. As I got older I got more exposed to different women in my travels and I became attracted to them. So it was a choice. You say people are born gay. Do you believe all gay people new? I have a coworker that is a lesbian and she is very private. She HATES people that choose to be gay because they are experimenting or just trying something new. She says that they give true homosexuals a bad name. So believe some people are born gay, more men than women though. I’ve learned that we could what if about anything in the world. Yet What is known as comimon sense usually rights the wrongs. What “AMUSES” me the most is that you seem to be a rebel and a why or if person…. You haven’t been around long enough yet you hang your hat on a how do we know the bible is real? SMH…. If people were to think like that we would’ve never lasted this long. People being civil and living with morals and good ethics is what helps balance out the world. They had to come from somewhere. Like I said, Christianity is the cornerstone of religion. I only use logic and I don’t make excuses for anyone. Preference is synonymous for choice. Once again, something that cannot be argued against. I didn’t make the rules nor am I interested in creating new ones. People are often confused about life in general especially now a days with their eyes being their truth…. Food for thought

          • For someone who is so well educated, your writing style is atrocious and filled with too many logical fallacies.

            I, of course, doubt what you say about yourself.

          • Hi G,

            Isn’t if funny that when the term lack of education comes up, some people get so offended and then provide a list of comparable degrees, age etc to fulfil their own insecurity? From reading your previous reply I figured you were at least in your 40’s, I knew you were a man, obviously a parent as you stated, living in the States and knowledgeable, hence my amusement of your arguments.

            You are right in saying that I’m younger and like you I hold a degree. I studied Biomedicine and Counselling. I’ve attended various courses in the social work sector and have worked extensively with young people over the years. I have also travelled a fair bit namely to Egypt, India, Nepal, US, Canada and UK. I’m currently planning my trips over the next couple years to Peru, Mexico, Cambodia to continue volunteering within orphanages, and crisis centres.

            I have up til now volunteered in various sectors and am currently applying to volunteer at a homeless shelter and crisis unit where I am living now. I also plan to go back to university and study journalism, political science and perhaps at some point either a business management course or one learning something more hands on so that I can travel to developing countries (my aim is to work as part of war child or a safe water organisation) so that I can travel to ground level in grief stricken areas and use my life as a means to make a difference in people’s lives on ground level. I no longer feel the need to walk down the path of love, marriage and children as I feel that my life purpose is for something greater than I have lead myself to believe. I have had this dream since I was a child and as years go on, I have become firmer in my belief that my life is not to procreate (although if given that opportunity I wouldn’t turn it down) but to be a part of establishing humanity and a safe environment for my fellow people and animals.

            I hope by saying all of this I can ease your mind that I do have knowledge under my belt and that this can be an intellectual debate if my experience is up to par with your requirements. In honesty, I think you’re a pretty good guy and I’m personally enjoying this conversation with you. I absolutely mean no offence in what I am saying to you and I hope that we can learn something from each other. I love to debate and learn different perspectives from various people, life experiences etc. But all that aside, I will head off into this debate now…

            My reply to you was based on a few arguments that I picked up on in your reply to my post. Some you have looked at, but the vast majority you have actually not addressed or not addressed in terms of the argument that I placed to you. So I would like to clear that up so any misunderstandings and tackle the new ones thrown out there so we can progress.

            1. The comparison between “regular” couples and gay couples.

            I made an argument against the meaning of marriage. I explained that to me, marriage is about two people vowing to share their lives together, to love and support each other. The term marriage is often defined as an act between a man and a woman to procreate. However, using that argument, if that is the SOLE purpose of marriage, then there are many “regular” couples that should not be allowed to get married due to being unable to have children or CHOOSING not to.

            I don’t understand that by looking at this argument in this context how what I said is absurd? Again we are talking about procreation being the sole purpose of marriage.

            2. Men and Women bringing something to the table

            We all have both masculine and feminine sides built into us and interesting enough I worked with teenage boys for a while; we employed male staff thinking they would be good role models for the boys and help them relate and move forward. And it actually went the opposite way. The boys felt much more comfortable around the women workers who came in to cover shifts, and were able to be vulnerable, talk about their emotions, work through their problems. But with the male workers… gosh it was another story. There were incidents left right and centre. The boys would run away, there was always a clash of egos etc. In a large part I feel that this was down to the male workers who just didn’t know how to work effectively with the boys, also I feel it was their egos that got in the way of being good role models and supportive to their development. This is not to say that men are not good fathers. I firmly believe that two people who are self -aware, caring, understanding, affectionate, open minded, responsible and unconditional in their love make amazing parents regardless of gender.

            My point is that regardless of gender, two people can bring the stability, physical and emotional development that a child needs and be being closed off to saying that only a man and woman can do this is far from the truth and you just have to look at many same sex couples and their families to see this. There are a few articles on there if you search it on google.

            3. In terms of teaching my children about safe sex and not as you put it the “truth” about relationships.

            It’s very clear what YOUR truth is about relationships. What is the truth? Of course gay couples cannot naturally produce children and my point is that THIS is not the sole purpose of life, love or marriage. The funny thing is that over 400 species have cases of homosexuality and only one of those species has cases of homophobia. Your definition of unnatural and normal is such a confined and closed perspective on life and considering your level of education and work experience; one would have figured that life had taught you more than this.

            I want my children to learn that they are beautiful human beings and that the way they were created, is a beauty within itself. I will NOT teach my children that the only way to have a fulfilling and happy life is to get married to the opposite sex. Heck, I am not even going to condition my children to get married for that matter. I will teach my children to learn about the world, the beauty within each way of life, to accept others as they wish to be accepted and to treat their fellow person and other species with dignity and respect. As for whomever they fall in love with, marry etc.. I will always support them and love them. I want my children to be confident, loved, cared for and be the best they can be, their own vision, not mine or anyone else’s.

            4. Children in the system being lost

            Unfortunately there are a lot of children both in and out of the system that are lost. And yes this has to do with unstable family life. Parents who just have not grown up and taken responsibility for bringing children into this world to give them a safe, secure, loving environment and the only good thing that I can say about the social system, is that it gives those kids an opportunity to make a better life for themselves and find who they truly are as people.

            Yes unfortunately there are a lot of single parents out there, and it’s awesome when those parents have been able to build their child up into remarkable young people and adults and give them the love of both parents. I know that there are some women who feel that they don’t need a man in their life, but there is a hell of a lot more to it than being educated and making a lot of money. This particular view of yours is very closed and from the way you have spoken about it I think you would agree when I say that perhaps some research will help you out.

            I come from a single parent home, dead beat dad etc. I grew up in a home filled with violence and needless to say none of it was pretty. But I for a long time always wanted my fantasy life… marriage at that time with a man, children etc. I wanted to have the kind of family which I didn’t have and also the love I felt I never got. My mum didn’t pursue any relationships after divorcing my dad just because she earned good money and didn’t feel she needed a man. My mum really loved my dad and after all she had been through she didn’t have the time to go to therapy or work through the trauma that happened while she was with my dad, neither did she have any emotional or physical support from anyone. I know that my mum still wishes things were different. I know that she hurts because she didn’t have the life she wanted and doesn’t believe she can now.

            Not only my mum, but in my own research, I have read about and seen women of all walks of life, who just give up on being with a man. Many who have been hurt, many who just don’t see themselves settling down etc for a variety of reasons and yes in some cases because they don’t feel they need a man and are I call them feminists or man haters (haha, I truly feel sorry for guys sometimes). And it happens the other way around as well. One of my best friends in school grew up in a single parent home with her dad. His wife left him for a rich guy and never turned back once to see how her two kids were until over 15 years later. Her dad never once pursued another relationship. He is still single and living his life. My point is that there are just so many reasons why people choose to be single. And most of those times the reason is sad.

            5. Classifying homosexuals

            I don’t really understand what you mean. There is a name for gay people and it’s called being homosexual. Just like being straight makes you heterosexual. As for God intending it to be a man and woman, like I said before, it all depends on what you believe life is about. If you believe that the sole purpose of life is to procreate then yea you’re right. But personally I don’t think many people have actually grasped the concept of life… and maybe they won’t for another few eras. God has always and always will be about love and compassion. I can’t debate on HIS/HER words because frankly, I never met them to my knowledge. I don’t believe in books because God did not write it and if God created everything in the image of himself, well then he created gay people for a reason. And for me that reason is for people to actually grasp the concept of what love is.

            6. Bisexual people

            I have to say that this gave me the biggest laugh today and I thank you for that. See the thing is, when straight people are out on the prowl or whatever, they date and have their sexual rendezvous with many many people of the opposite sex. Bisexual people just have more selection because gender is not the equation! I say that as once believing I was bisexual. For me personally, I found it frustrating as hell because I felt incomplete with a man, but not with a woman… yet I kept trying to pursue long term relationships with men and needless to say it didn’t work because I was not a true bisexual but gay. As for engaging in little orgies, how many straight people do this??? So many people on either side of the fence have played around in this… I personally could never do it as I’m a very monogamous person and it would hurt me beyond words to see my partner with someone else.

            And even for arguments sake if bisexual people want to get married to people of different genders, what’s wrong with that? We live in the 21st century for crying out loud. But then that is my notion that marriage is about love and not procreation. In any case, I know many many bisexual men and women, from my travels, research etc. And the vast majority of them DO NOT want two partners, they just want one person who they love period.

            Polygamy has been around for a very very very long time. I have a good friend who was brought up in a polygamous household in Africa. It’s seen as being normal and a rational logical thing to do- I personally don’t get it; I don’t understand why anyone would want to put themselves through several marriages. To me one sounds hard enough as it is, but each to their own. As long as not one is being forced into it then fine. I know that being a consenting, non- brainwashed person to enter this kind of marriage is highly unlikely, which is why I don’t agree with it. I really don’t care if it is legal or not in the US. There are a lot of things that the US does that I do not agree with and never will. But then again I can say that about most countries.

            7. Being gay a choice

            I mean really are you debating this?? How in the world can you compare choosing to be with a white woman or a coloured woman to being straight or gay?? This argument is as ludicrous as your argument about acrophobia. If you actively chose to be straight then we have an argument, but you CHOOSING to be with a white woman as opposed to a coloured woman is by complete choice. And yes, a coloured person cannot choose their skin colour, and neither can a gay person choose to be gay. Do you really think that people would choose to be discriminated, killed, verbally and physically abused because they are gay? No, seriously think about it. It’s the most stupid argument that homophobics use. Go back to when you were in your teens, pre-teen even and think about if you actively chose to be attracted to a woman or if that was a natural feeling and then come and tell me that being gay is a choice.

            8. Do I believe that all gay people knew what??

            I don’t understand what your co-worker is saying. You know what, you got children, you were a kid yourself at one stage, tell me, didn’t you have desires to experiment with your sexuality, even if it was with other women? What is wrong with someone exploring themselves or trying something new? We are all brought up to believe that being gay is wrong. And unfortunately, many people realise so late in their lives that they are gay. And it’s so sad that they lived in a closet, or never got to know their real selves because of this conditioning. I had all my gay feelings when I was a kid, and I never got to realise it until I was 24 years old. And the hard work I’m still going through to understand myself is not nice. It really isn’t.

            9. As for women for being more susceptible to being gay then men:

            I don’t know if you have ever gone to a gay pride, gay clubs etc., but seriously the women to men ratio is staggering. There are many more visible gay men than women and I really take my hat off to gay men. Men are brought up in a world where they are conditioned to having to play this macho, leader, alpha male guy that anything short of that is just cowardly. That is just shown in itself without the gay factor in the level of suicide rates between men and women. For a man to actually allow himself to explore himself sexually, emotionally takes a hell of a lot of courage and backbone in my opinion.

            Women do not have this factor to consider when exploring their sexuality. Their factors are being a good woman, wife, lover etc. And that in itself is hard and again I take my hat off to those women who have been able to overcome social prejudices in order to be who they are.

            10. The Bible

            You caught me, I am a self- confessed rebel and a what if, why asker. Always have been and while sometimes people love that, ahh it always ends up making someone angry. I’m actually quite proud of this streak I have. I have a never-ending curiosity of life, I always want to learn, to open my mind just that little more. I personally believe that the Bible, Quran, Gita etc., are beautiful scriptures. I don’t believe anything blindly. There has to be some logic to it and for the things that just don’t have a logical explanation I try and see it from God’s perspective. To me, God gave us this magnificent brain and we just don’t use it. Even if all of the words in the Bible are true, I wonder sometimes if God sits in heaven in amusement, disappointment or sadness that we miss his most fundamental and basic principles of life. You know the first humans ever to be on the planet, never even practiced spirituality until much later. Religions, society, order, leadership etc., all came much much later. I’m all for being civilised, having morals, etc., but just the words civilised and morals make me laugh.

            How civilised are we that instead of being compassionate, accepting and caring individuals, we are barbaric in our attitudes, and beliefs towards others? How civilised are we, when we shun, hurt and belittle our fellow man. You want to talk about morals, we are killing each other every day because of religion, greed and “morality” and not only that, we deprive people of their natural born right to love and be loved. And you call us being civilised? Cavemen were more civilised than we are today.

            The world would be such a better place if we could just put our prejudices on one side, be compassionate and loving and treat each other with unconditional love. There are two passages that I really love from the Bible, Footprints and the one about love. Sometimes it really saddens me that gay people are persecuted and isolated in this life, and that the beauty and love by which God built this universe is forgotten. I know by now, all of what I have said is likely going to fall on deaf ears.

            I spent a long time being angry with God for a lot of things. And then when I went to Nepal and I saw the poverty, I saw children homeless, hungry, I saw animals being treated cruelly, starving and I read about the number of Nepalese women that are sex trafficked, I thought about God and I felt sorry for him. He created a beautiful universe and what have we done to it. If I was God, I wouldn’t even know where to start to heal the world.

            I want any future child of mine, to love themselves and be principled, compassionate and humble. I don’t care if my child is gay, straight, asexual whatever. By giving me a child, God would be entrusting me to guide, care for and love my child unconditionally and I will try my level best to provide my child that for the rest of my days. Whatever you choose to do with your children like I said is your choice and at the end of it, only your children can tell you if you provided them with all they needed to be happy, successful and fulfilled with the tools and guidance you gave them. I’m sure you are a very good parent, and you love your children very very much. I just hope you have the courage to try and put your prejudices on one side for a moment and just look at this from the other side of the coin before you form your judgements on it. I may be younger than you and less experienced, but I can wholeheartedly say that there is much more to a person than their sexual orientation and even in that, there is so much more to learn about love that is awesome in itself.

            P.S Food for Thought: Read the book Manuscript from Accura I’m sure you would find that a notable book to read for any of life’s questions if you haven’t read it already.

            Take Care,

            Holly

          • I guess you are an expert in logic lol. Every single word on this page is an opinion. Research means what, that you read a few articles, or talked to a few people about the subject? You can doubt all you want. You can have all the opinions that you’d like to have. I owe you nothing. By the way this is argumentative writing. I didn’t know this was a formal writing class. I’m sorry that a dumbed it down. I was writing in response to what had been previously written. The point of it all is that people need to wake up and stop making excuses for what we KNOW is wrong. You can if all day about any issue but to recognize homosexuality as normal and try to teach people that there isn’t anything wrong with it is WRONG! The social acceptance of this country is becoming ridiculous! Using marijuana is wrong because its a drug correct? Everyone knows that. Are you old enough to remember the D.A.R.E program? So we clearly know that drugs are bad. Yet a lot people banned together and fought to get it legalized and they won. Why are Americans entertaining that? History tells us that it happened with alcohol and now weed. Sooner or later it will be cocaine. So what are you going to teach your children? What will they teach there children? The underlined story is that as long as you have a situation that can gain a major following that becomes a political issue, it can become a reality through loop holes regardless of our regular judgement. I.e Legalizing marijuana and legalizing same sex marriage. I ask you what happened to common sense? I choose to believe in a mixture of realism and idealism. One’s upbringing and experiences shape their truths about life. Same-sex members having sex with each other will never be accepted in my household. That’s my truth. What people tend to do in their own homes is their business. When do we say enough is enough? Everything has become so political, which is entrapped in lies and deceit. I.e Any politician! Social Acceptence has become a little ridiculous to say the least but being a Christian I pray that everyone finds there way.

          • So, you’ve gone from a supposed ‘educated excuse’ for your homophobia to the real reason – you are just simply homophobic based on your subjective experience with sexuality. Bully for you that you are attracted to women and were so at 5. There are homosexuals who can identify their first sexual awakenings at the same age. Base on your ‘logic’ they should then be accepted.

            You write, “The fallacy here is that God DID NOT create gay people. God created Adam and Eve according to the bible”

            That’s stupid. One could argue that God intends for bisexuality since he created both Adam and Eve. Or, you can go further and understand the androgyny of Genesis 1.26-7, and even further to understand Genesis 1-2 is not intended as science, but theology. Surely you don’t really think the world is 6,000 years old. I guess evolution is just an opinion as well?

            Then you write some nonsense about animals and adjectives and then issue a red herring for a distraction – Jesus as a white male? Jesus was a Jew. Not even an American Jew.

            After looking at your facebook page, I doubt much of what you have to say about education and family life. I could be wrong, but I don’t think I am.

          • @ Holly, that response was for Joel. I spent a lot of time writing you a response but my wife restarted the computer. Joel if my logic is wrong than I’ve come to a conclusion. I was also taught that you don’t argue or debate with a fool! Opinions are like assholes every one has one. We are all from different walks in life, however to question the obvious is like debating with a 2 year old that asks why, why, why…. I’m glad that you found something to change your opinion on how you feel. What I cannot understand is that according to some people on this page, GOD made everything and with that being said he made people in his image. The fact that there are homosexual beings in the world is GODS doing.??? Is that correct? The fallacy here is that God DID NOT create gay people. God created Adam and Eve according to the bible. A man and a women. Why debate any further? Is a homosexual a different animal or is it really an adjective to describe ones sexuality? Hmmmm… Ha haaaaaa. I hope all live the life they choose to live. I’m not anyone’s judge. Great people are hard to find in the world period. Holly, according to your email you are doing great things. Keep up the good job. Thanks Joel for the site. I hope it inspires more people to share their opinions. Genesis 2, says it all for the people who are Christians. Joel do you also believe that Jesus was white?

          • Hi Holly,

            I stated that I wasn’t offended at all. I was just giving you my background. You never said where you were from.

            1. Did the definition of marriage change or did people try to redefine it according to their beliefs? My argument about homosexuals not being able to reproduce is really arguing the fact that same-sex isn’t normal. Period. The fact that they cannot procreate is just a fact that people make excuses and try to find a logic to why same sex coupling is ok. I also stated that some people have deficiencies and they are unable to have kids. How do you compare those unfortunate heterosexuals to homosexuals? I guess I also need to state what seems to be common sense….. A man and a women gets married when they love each other and plan to spend the rest of their lives together. Their union forms a family. If they choose to expand there family they will have children unless they are not able to produce. If they choose not to have children it’s apart of their “FREE WILL”. That is the natural order of things. It is an absolute. When and why the natural order of things got questioned who knows… To make the argument from a religious: Genesis 2. It’s all there. God didn’t want man to be alone so he made animals first and Adam named them. God still thought that something was missing so he put Adam to sleep and pulled a rib out and created a mate for Adam. Adam named her Woman. I can see Atheist or people who are Agnostic arguing that but not really anyone else with the exception of the uneducated. The truth of it all is that is what has been passed down to the majority of people in the US. It’s my faith. When people start trying to disprove Christianity, you run into science and a bunch of opinions. Was there a Big Bang and humans evolved from monkeys or was it some great bing that created everything? Regardless the beliefs whether science or religious, they both prove that men and women belong together. The only exceptions are asexual animals. There is a rhyme and reason for what often is.

            2. Hmmm where do I start with this one? You are educated and you have had a few psychology classes. So I cannot understand why you seem to think its the same with two women or men being the head of house hold as a heterosexual couple. How many sexes are there? The answer is 2. So if you have two of the same sexes in a household, are they both mommies or are they both daddies? Due to the thing called balance one of the members will take on the role of the opposite sex. I didn’t make the rules. It just happens. What I don’t get nor like is seeing a man imitate a woman and vice versa. It is distur=
            bing to me. In my opinion, homosexuals have a sickness. Referring to the few that are born like that. Now what is the first thing that comes to mind about pedophiles? Sick people right? If you met one and he or she told you=
            that they was always attracted to little boys or girls? Does that make it ok sense G.O.D doesn’t make mistakes? Not to mention that they could be sexual predators just like heterosexuals. They could pray on weak minded youths that aren’t sure and why they feel the way they do. People feel ashamed when they feel like they are doing wrong. We are taught the difference between right and wrong. It just seems like people want to make excuses about what’s right or wrong when it goes against what they want to believe. If a killer said that he always wanted to hurt people growing up, does it make it ok for him to be a killer? Just throwing out examples with the same thought process that people use when they defend homosexuals. So I believe it is wrong just as it is wrong in my opinion to be involve in an extremist group like the KKK, Bloods, Crips, or other gangs. Technically speaking a same sex couple could raise a child and give them all the tools that they need to be a successful person in the world. That still doesn’t answer if it is right or not. I have a friend that raised her 3 sisters. She did what she had to do, but she wouldn’t wish that on anyone. So almost anyone is capable of raising kids.

            3. My apologies in advance if I offend you. If you fail to tell your children not my truth but the truth than you are doing them an injustice. I understand that you wouldn’t want to hurt your flesh and blood if they fell into a category, but the world is an ugly place. I believe i spoke of the lady that has twin girls… She suspects one of them to be gay. She doesn’t believe or condone in homosexuality at all. I asked her what did she teach her children, she said ,”I taught them that there are girls that like girls and boys that like boys, but it is supposed to be a mom and a dad in a household.” She went on to tell me that she told them whether right, wrong, or indifferent she would always love them. So she held back her opinion of it only because she didn’t want to offend her daughter. To me she walked the

            By omitting the truth of it they will not recognize certain things growing up. Were you a sheltered child? Do you believe racism still exists?

            4/5. Your experience is one that I see on a regular. The point I was trying to make is if your experiences lead you to be bi or gay then how can you say that homosexuals are all born gay!!! I was surprised that real homos (short for homosexuals, not bring disrespectful)are angry at the people that are gay for a spell and then back on the straight train. Love is what? An EMOTION! Women make decisions more often than not based on emotions. Men are more logical thinkers. When a man says “I Do”, a woman will never underst and the pressure of that moment because she is not a man. Our minds race 20-30 years forward because we cannot except failure! We have to grow up and excel in life because we have to take care of our family for the rest of our lives(In my Opinion). Unfortunately men collapse because of the the pressure and they take it out on the people close to them most. You said at one point and time you wanted to be married. If your parents relationship was better do you still think you would have different thoughts? That plays a big part in the development of children. For example, my mother left my father because he was abusive and also an alcoholic. The reason why she left him is because she didn’t want me to grow up thinking that was ok. I was able to recognize that it wasn’t ok to beat or hit women, but a lot of children continue the cycles that they witness growing up, not all of course. I don’t drink and I am great full that I was taught how a man should carry himself. My mother tried but she could only teach me so ,UCMJ. It was my Uncles that explained to me that I was the man of my household. They taught me how to work hard, recognize my faults, respect people, and to be my own man. They drilled it into me that you believe in what you know and not to sway with the crowd. My mother told me the same things but I it really sunk in coming from my uncles.

            6. They don’t want two different partners because it isn’t a realization. Hell if I could have multiple beautiful wives and it was excepted why not? They could be best friends and I could have a blast lol. That’s being mannish lol. Is more really better? Quality over quantity.

            Your friend is in Africa where? I’ve been to Kenya and Zimbabwe. Everything that we discuss comes back around full circle. Normal is relative to everyone’s experience in a sense, and a lot of what is normal is common sense. In America, it’s not normal for people to have a same sex partner. It is normal that cats don’t like dogs. Yet there are always exceptions. My aunt has a dog and cat which is the weirdest thing I’ve seen, but they was raised together. So that is normal for them. Africans don’t think anything of polygamy because its what they know. It’s socially accepted in their cultures, but all of Africa does not recognize polygamy.

            7. Yes I do debate that. A choice is a choice but the funny thing is you say that it is ridiculous as to the comparison but gay people compare the civil rights of black people to their cause. I’m not black but I’m offended when I hear that. It’s not even apples and oranges, smh. Can you agree that there is a sexual preference? If so, like I’ve said previously, preference is synonymous with the word choice. Maybe people are defining gay people’s orientation wrong when they use the word preference. Just a thought…. As I am writing I thought how I would react if I caught my 14 yr old with a 16 yr old girl having sex…. I would be secretly happy for him, but I would discipline him and really explain the ramifications of his actions. You can tell people it’s no joy to be a single parent or to have children before you were ready to. I don’t believe my son is a virgin but I tell him all the time to keep a condom in his wallet, and always protect himself. I also tell him that I’d rather have him wait, but these kids now a days are more sexual than our generation was. Sex is out in the open. It’s no longer a secret and dirty thing. The technology that they have access to at their ages lets them look up all the pornography they want. It’s hard to block from the bad things in the world that they might not be ready for.

            Now, if I caught my 14 year old with a 16 yr old boy, I’d be sick! The thought of it makes me want to throw up. I raised them to understand what this life brings. I tell them that they shouldn’t hate anyone, that doesn’t mean t=
            hey have to be an advocate for it either. My son was 7 years old when he saw his first homosexual. He asked me why that man was dressed like a lady. I told him, that he was expressing himself, but men dressing like women isn’t normal. Boys grow up to be men, and girls grow up to be women. They meet one another and they have kids and the cycle continues. He understood it just like I did when my uncle told me.

            8. Excuse my frankness, when I was a kid I remember my penis getting hard for a women at 5 years old. Have I ever thought about a man? Negative other than why would another man want a man while women are around.

            Holly I’ve enjoyed our conversation. I’m not trying to get you to change who you are. Just understand that you can’t change or sway all people. You seem to be an amazing person in our conversation. I respect you for having the courage to debate openly. Thanks for your time. Live your life, only you can live it!

          • wow… so much wrong here. I really don’t have time to answer all of it as I am getting ready to head to church.

            1.) Homosexuality is common and natural. Not only is it found in many cultures across the world and throughout history, but it is found in the animal kingdom as well. What we have only lately termed homosexuality is very much a natural aspect of sentient sexuality.

            If sex is only for procreation, then I hope you are refraining from sex unless it is specifically for the cause of procreation. The idea of ‘free will’ does not fall into Natural Law. This is why the Catholic Church is not bigoted on their approach to this topic. They view sex outside the idea of procreation as wrong. Whether it is recreational sex or homosexuality, it is all equally wrong. You, on the hand, only prove your bigotry because you try to quote natural law against homosexuals, but then refuse to abide by it for yourself.

            You quote Genesis 2 as actual history. I assume you are what is called a ‘biblical literalist.’ This is a grievous error, but one we can work with for how. God didn’t just create the animals in Genesis 2 to be named by Adam, but to be his partner. That’s correct — Adam had to have sex with the animals to see which one was compatible.

            Your ignorance of science and religion is outstanding… and terribly sad.

            I would suggest you stay off the internet until you are able to read some actual text books on science and religion. Start with Foucalt on sexuality.

            Now, I’m off to Church where we celebrate God’s creation and his grace.

      • You are an idiot. You are comparing a criminal (who HURTS people and/or KILLS people) to two people who LOVE each other. You’re comparing EVIL to LOVE.

      • Homosexuality is wrong end of,
        Jesus Save us from this disease of the Satan
        amen

      • You literally just compared gays to criminals so we’re doing something illegal because our bodies are naturally attracted to the same sex?

      • Committing a crime has the ultimate effect of personally harming another person who is not involved. Say you steal money from a cash register where you work. You’ve just embezzled money out of the pocket of your employer. You’ve effected him personally. Say you commit murder. You’ve killed a human being and taken not only their life away, but also taken them away from their family and friends. The list goes on and on. There’s very few crimes I can think of that only personally effect that one individual, like drug use. But then, that can also be linked towards peer pressure as well as robbery/theft, as many drug users steal to support their habit.

        Point being that being gay effects nobody. It’s something two people do between themselves and no one else. Love is a private issue. So it’s distinguishably completely different than committing a crime.

        Also, just because you realized your feelings towards women were just simply admiration – so what? You’re using your personal view and assuming therefore, that everyone else must feel the exact same way and have been confused, just like you. That’s a very ego centric way to view the world. I guarantee you my feelings towards women are NOT just admiration. Yes, I definitely do admire them. But it goes way deeper than that. I have emotional/physical feelings for them, and have had them since I was young. When I say young, I mean 8/9 years old. Are you insinuating that I’m not self aware enough to know my own natural sexuality and am just confused like you were? But either way, say homosexuality was a “choice” (just like you being straight is one). Do people not have free will to choose what makes them happy? Is that not a right granted by our constitution when our nation was founded. So even if it were a choice, how in the world does that okay discrimination?

        People only try to understand things from the way they want to see the world. If you want to believe homosexuality is a choice because it fits what you’re comfortable believing, so be it. But when those beliefs effect the daily lives of others through discrimination and hate – it absolutely stops being okay. Different opinions make the world go round. But hate and discrimination need to stop.

    • Actually, 99% of homosexuality IS a choice.

      Sure, there are biological factors that may increase the likelihood of choosing that orientation, but they do NOT mandate it. Just because a microwave oven can produce radio waves doesn’t mean you can, or should, use it as a radio broadcaster. You can use your body as nature designed it to be used, or you can chose to use it for unintended purposes. Any man, regardless of being gay or straight, can choose to have anal sex or oral with another man, just as any woman can have a sexual encounter with another woman; which means that it is NOT dictated by biology, but is a mental choice.

      Because it is a mental choice, and from what we know about learning behavior and neuroplasticity, we know the minds of all but a few people with radically structurally different (either developmentally or from traumatic injury) can be reprogrammed. Reprogramming can be done by force, with significantly less than 100% success; or it can be done with the consent and help of the person, with a far higher rate of success. Again, that is a choice. But since humans are basically lazy and reluctant to change, they usually will not, and make up a plethora of excuses of why they can not.

      • I find it odd your fb profile is that of a female.

        Your explanation is simply ludicrous, but I noticed you have no issue with forcible reprogramming. That in of itself is telling about your repression.

      • In regards to your comment about choosing to have sex with a man or a woman, of course that is a choice. You can chose to have sex with anyone, regardless of your sexual orientation or attraction to that person. In fact you, you can theoretically choose to have sex with any living creature, although I don’t see why you’d want to. My point is, the act of physically engaging is sex is a choice, but the gender you are attracted to isn’t. I personally believe that homosexuality is not a choice, and neither is heterosexuality. As a heterosexual female, I know I didn’t choose to be straight, I just am. I basically have no control over who I find attractive, it all has to do with hormones.

        Also, do you really think it a good idea for homosexuals to reprogram their brain? Tell me honestly, what is so bad about someone being gay?

        On a side note, where did you find your 99% statistic? I’d love to read that scientific article.

    • Well that should tell you something if your “constantly being put down” cause honestly if its so amazing and sooooo pure than naturally we can have you create your own society and you can have children n make a family like normal humans. Oh wait, you cant because its NOT HUMANLY RIGHT! the only reason its acceptable is because the government is trying to fuck with us. I garentee that if we spoke to the founding father’s they would execute you ill bet everything this was not what George Washington had in mind when making America “free”

      • Wow. I don’t even know where to begin on this comment. It really is so stupid, it deserves no response. As arguing rationality with a clearly irrational person gets both people nowhere. But I can’t help myself.

        You are blaming homosexuals for being put down, as if it’s their own fault. In the same way it’s a kids fault for being bullied, right? The fact that people put gay people down doesn’t reflect on homosexuals. It reflects on the people who put them down.

        Gay people CAN procreate. A gay man and a gay woman can have a baby together without ever having to have sex! It’s like magic! So yes, we could have our own flourishing society if we needed. Lol.

        As for our founding fathers, George Washington was not the only man involved in that. And second, our founding fathers wanted to set up a democracy where we had the right to vote and have freedom from oppression. The exact same type of oppression you are attempting to inflict on others. They granted us the freedom to pursue our own happiness as we choose.

        You sir, are insane. Nobody would be killing anybody over differences of perspective. You’re a frigtening person. You should get help with your blind hatred and anger towards the world.

      • I wonder if a bird (America) can fly (live) without a right wing (conservitave aspect)

    • It’s your choice to be gay. I’m bisexual. It ain’t right for gays to be put down though. You are who you are.

      • Wow, I’m confused! So are you saying you “Chose” to be bisexual Richie?

      • Nobody “chooses” to be gay. You can choose who you date but the attraction is still there no matter how much you try to avoid it. You’re absolutely confusing me!

    • I agree, this right-wing sht involving entrees from the bible is bull crap. Being gay isn’t a choice, it’s how you are attracted to other people. In reality we all know (most) Christians turn to Christianity for answers. It is not because they are committed to being nice, it’s because they think they’re better than others when they go to church. So when you think that being a stereotypical bastard is go(o)d, or that the Fcking bible is a reliable resource, Think again. This is just like situation of white male surperiority.

  2. I edited your comment due to the excessive use of foul language, however, you anger was left untouched.

    Your homosexuality is a choice; it is a sin. Society, as a whole, rarely ‘puts down’ on homosexuals and instead generally glorifies them as some standard of enlightenment against Christianity.

    I believe that those that read you comment will pray for you.

    • If you pay attention to the bible, it clearly states that “Love and Faithfulness go before him,” and to “Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Two quotes from your bible saying that love is the fulfillment of law. now tell me this you one minded f, How does a homosexual marriage affect you in any shape or form? God made homosexuals. He made every f.g thing around you don’t you see that. Now how dare you say it is a sin when your almighty God is the one to create it. It may be a little weird to see a man with a man sure, but grow.the.f.up. They deserve love and effection just as much as your sorry a. Them loving eachother and providing a family for a child whos HETEROSEXUAL parents left them. Homosxuals will be providing loving homes and proving that love and faithfullness go before him.

      • Harry R., I will not tolerate the vulgarity on this forum.

        Please note my position has changed since this post. (I was listed by polycarp then). Please refrain from the vulgarity, or I will no allow you comment.

        Also, nice bike pictures.

      • I am not religious however I believe homosexual marriage does affect us in many ways. That is the classic liberal trap, whenever they want to push their agenda over you (no it wont affect you!) yeah right!! Dude I have no problem with them having some sort of legal contract for an “union”, as they pay taxes too. But you want to re-define marriage to suit your perversion(s), and make it look like it is something normal when it is not. homosexuals represent a small percentage of the population, but still you want everyone to accept your ways, to impose your hedonistic “lifestyle” on the majority. Then they are already pushing their agenda in school by teaching little children (who have no idea about sexuality btw) this meaningless things just to brainwashing them to think that it is “normal” which is not. But as soon as a christian mentions something about God in school you start crying foul. If they make this legal some idiots will eventually start pressure or attack the church for not allowing same-sex marriage, and all this talk about “equality” is bs. Eventually your people will be lobbying for “hate speech” on anyone who opposes or dares to speak against your “community”. As I write this pedophiles are lining up to request the same “rights” that you are demanding. what is next? animals? it is a slippery slope. You ask christians to be tolerant, they have been, they have let you be, they dont go and impose everyone to wear a cross or have their beliefs. But yet you want to impose your beliefs, who nobody has shed blood for. if the founding fathers believed this was a right, or even MLK I believe they would have included such a provision. But you fail to see how outrageous this is. as your people are just human beings that we should respect, but not with shoving your “lifestyle” at the same level of nature. I have gay friends and talented ones, and I treat them like everybody else. And God may have created everything but he gave man the will to choose. but focusing in the purpose of things a man has a penis to and a woman a vagina which perfectly fit together, it was not intended or designed to be for other purposes, but for reproduction. Notice I havent mentioned a sentence from the bible, I dont need to.

        • Coug, You are absolutely right, albeit from a secular, non-religious perspective.

          The agenda is redefining things.
          They redefine “tolerance” to mean “acceptance.” It not longer means “let me live my life”, it has come to mean, “agree, approve and help me.”

          They have redefined “hate”. Hate is supposed to mean “dislike, disdain.” In their agenda disagreement has been redefined as “hate.”

          They do not merely want equal rights such that they would have another institution equivalent to marriage with all of the same rights of heterosexual marriage, they want to re-normal define.

          • They said the same thing about women’s rights, about the end of slavery, about the end of divine rights… Yes, because change is bad.

        • Seriously? It’s not a slippery slope. It’s pretty cut and dried. You say you have gay friends and you treat them with respect?? You are sinning my friend as you are lying. The minority has been winning for the past couple of years in regards to holidays, schools, food, proper names, etc… And if you think that only a minority of people are gay- you again would be wrong. Who would want to ‘come out’ and face incredibly naive people like yourself. And anyone who has to actually name the sexual organs in their post is someone who has not read up on anything factual in regards to the topic at hand. The purpose of marriage is love and love is universal, but it is something not everyone gets the chance to feel. To say marriage is solely about procreation is another ill stated comment. I could go on, but truthfully- I don’t have the energy to waste on someone one as delusional as you.

        • WE’RE NOT FORCING YOU TO BE HOMOSEXUAL WE JUST WANT YOU TO LET US BE HOMOSEXUAL THEN MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIVES AND ORGET ABOUT US!!! we’re telling kids that homosexual is okay, not that they have to be!!!! you’re looking at things all wrong.
          we don’t want to encroach on your life and we don’t want you to encroach on ours!!

        • But to me it doesn’t appear as though gay people are pushing their lifestyle on anyone. In fact, what makes their lifestyle so different from yours or mine? They just want the same marital rights as heterosexuals. And what is so wrong about that? I believe it’s more on a government recognition level than a religious one, so churches wouldn’t be forced into doing ceremonies they didn’t want to.

          And I’m very surprised that you compared a homosexual couple to a pedophile. A homosexual couple that consists of two consenting adults who are willing to devote their lives to each other, and a pedophile. Really?

          There are several things I believe the founding fathers forgot to write into the constitution, including the end of slavery and equal voting rights. So I don’t really think gay marriage not being included by the founding fathers makes your argument valid.

          Also you mentioned that you have gay friends, do you not want them to have the same marital rights as you do?

          I hope you don’t take any of this offensive, I’m trying to speak in a respectful way. But I must say, one comment really bothered me. You referred to the homosexual “lifestyle” as hedonistic. Don’t you think that’s completely judgmental and false? My best friend happens to be gay and a virgin. Gay people aren’t crazy sex addicts nor are they pedophiles, they’re just attracted to the same gender. It doesn’t define the type of person they are.

      • But if you look at the Bible it also says that a man should not sleep with another man as he would a woman.You shouldn’t take little pieces out of the Bible if you haven’t even fully read it. Also he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their wickedness, including the sin of the men sleeping with other men.

          • I said including, I know it wasn’t just because of homosexuality, but God gave them a chance and they lost it. The Bible does say it is a sin though and there is no denying that, Leviticus 18:22′You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. God doesn’t hate homosexuals and refuses them a chance to get into heaven, but he’s telling us that it’s a sinful act, and all sins can be repented of. It is a choice and people aren’t born that way like they like to say.
            This is what I’ve heard about how homosexuals are made:
            “A former homosexual who has carried on an effective ministry for five years among homosexuals reported, ‘I have counseled over three hundred homosexuals and have yet to find one that enjoyed a warm love relationship with his father.’” Now I’m not saying that it applies to everyone but it does make a lot of sense.

            But it is also a sin to hate a homosexual as well, I cried when I saw the news one day of people beating up homosexuals and killing them. It is wicked and evil, sinful, etc.

          • Deborah – it’d be great if you would quote in context.

            What does it mean to lie with man on a woman’s bed? Yeah… you need to get into the Hebrew.

            I have no idea where you got that last quote from, but that is laughable.

          • Apparently, this is the actual translation: ‘And with a male, thou shalt not lie down in a woman’s bed; it is an abomination.’

            That doesn’t sound like “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; its an abomination”

            Its all on perception and interpertation. We see what we want to see. There are many things in the bible that we no longer perceive as being right or factual. I just wish people would remember that the Bible and all other religious books were written by mankind and not God him/herself. The ideas and message which has been conveyed by these books are so badly lost. No one has the right to judge anyone. And its a very sad shame that people cannot live and let live and leave their moral compass to themselves.

          • Holly – it’s even more confusing in the Greek translation of the Hebrew! Well, confusing for those who insist on a homophobic reading of Scripture.

            Believe it or not, many in the ancient world thought sex with women was for procreation, but sex with men was for a different reason. That adds some interpretatives stances to this one line, now doesn’t?

          • Hey Joel,

            Yes of course. Ideologies have been changing and being interperted in different ways for centuries. People don’t understand something and fear often drives people to remain within a box of ideas that do not fit logic or reasoning. When people bring in arguments of marriage with animals or pedophiles they further show that they do not understand what being gay means. They keep comparing consensual relationships to non-consensual relationships which makes no sense.

          • Well, I suppose male homosexual gang rape would be extremely inhospitable.

          • Also Deborah,

            As for the ministery bit.. there are thousands of children that are orphans, are abused by their parents and DO NOT turn out to be gay. Its also a proven fact that men often look for a motherly figure in a partner while a woman looks for a fatherly figure regardless of abuse or not.

            Gay people are attracted to, feel complete with, happier with and comfortable with the same sex. It goes far beyond sex and I suppose if you looked at your own relationships, you would see that your affections towards your partner is fueled by emotions far beyond just sex. The way that you feel about your opposite sex partner is the same as gay people feel about their partner. It is a consensual relationship and since it does not affect you directly, I don’t understand why people make such a big deal about this.

            If you think its a sin, that is rightly your opinion and although its based on completely false beliefs and facts you are being very closed minded and judging someone which actually one of the commandments tells you that you have no right to. NO ONE is getting hurt in a gay relationship. How can anyone compare that to other sins where someone is on the recieving end of being hurt?? There is zero logic to it and as far as I am concerned, God has more logic than all of mankind put together to come up with something as dumb as being gay is a sin. Get real people.

          • Honestly, you made my day with how passionate you are about supporting gay rights. I agree with everything you are saying and believe that love is being love and love not gender and gender. I am speechless with how dedicated and strong you are with your replies. Take care, N

  3. Yuro-okami, this is a very difficult post for me to write because I have had to deal with this very issue in my own life and in my family. My sister after years of marriage and ministry with the youth, decided she was a lesbian. I know you think and believe you were created that way, but in light of the scriptures, that would make God a liar, and that is impossible. She confessed she only started feeling that way after years of marriage and not having money (according to the scriptures, the love of money is the root of all evil). She hooked up with a woman who knew how to make money. She has money, but is struggling financially. I make a third of what she makes and am doing better financially, spiritually and emotionally. In my own life, I was molested and raped by a family member as a child and begun to think that desiring women was the only way to protect myself. However, loving God, I read my bible and found out it was an abomination. I, at that point, decided that I trusted God and gave up the idea. Most people I have talked to had a defining moment. Either through abuse, bullying or just deciding that the opposite sex was out to get them. One or more of these moments pitted their minds to become either gay or lesbian. Hardly an in the womb experience. I have an autistic son, does that mean he was born that way, yes. Why? Because his grandfather on his dad’s side had polio which damaged a gene and brought about autism in most males in the family including my son’s father. In order to claim homosexuality as being born with it, that would mean a defective gene was formed due to something in a forefather. However, God never called being mentally slow a sin, but did call desiring someone sexually of the same sex a sin. That being the case, He in all his mercy provided a way out, called salvation through His son Jesus.

    I understand your need to defend yourself and your lifestyle, but your lifestyle is not who you are. It is not your definition as many have tried to portray homosexuality. It is your lifestyle. I choose to live a lifestyle of grace and righteousness in Christ Jesus. You choose to live a lifestyle of homosexuality. We were both born in the same state of being, we choose what we do with our lives and how we live it. Each thing in our lives and how we handle life is our choice. I do not condemn you because Jesus did not come to condemn you, John 3:17 says this, check it out. I do come to let you know that God loves you with an everlasting love and gave His most precious son to suffer viciously and to die covering your sins with His blood so you could choose a different life, just as He did for me. The definition that God wants for you is a child of the most high God, not a homosexual. My definite is a child of the most high God, not a victim of molestation, rape and mother of a disabled child. God is good beyond measure, search your heart and let Him reveal Himself to you, and then you might just discover how much He really loves you and will let go your anger. And so you know, God is merciful and having been through what I have been through in my life, He has strengthened me to handle some very big issues and God has held me and loved me and accepted me when no one else would. My son, he is the most precious gift in my life, so to answer a question you may have, God was merciful to give me my son as he is, as well as the other two who have overcome obsticles and have become wonderful men. He is a Great God, a Good God, my Abba Father.

    Because my lifestyle is right, I feel no need to defend it. If your lifestyle is right, why do you feel the need to defend it, especially with such anger? Just a question to ponder.

    Remember, you are deeply loved by Father God.

  4. -1 Timothy 1:14-16 (New International Version)14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

  5. Tammy, you are obviously blind to any truths put before you. Mainly, I find great fault with the fact that all your arguments are written in scripture. Which as I’m sure you’ve heard many anti-religious atheists (of who I also oppose) state have been lost for a few hundred years, gone through several translations, and lost their original meaning in the process. Also, the scriptures were -not- I repeat, -not- written by God. No, they were written by mortal men. I personally was born and raised Catholic and have deviated heavily from the church in my beliefs. If that makes me bound for eternal hellfire so be it. Mainly, I think the old-testament is about two-thousand years outdated and should be forgotten about completely. God has never said that homosexuality is a sin. Not once. It was written down by some homophobic king thousands of years ago. In utter words it is *******. I can’t wait for the GENE that’s right GENE for homosexuality is discovered. I’m sure you’re religious extremist argument will be something like “God…uh…the DEVEIL! Yah that’s it, the DEVIL put that gene there, praise the lord!” No, I’m sorry, there is no excuse for intolerance to homosexuality. It is not an abomination, it is a chemical reaction. It is in our genes.
    To put it simply, Science, it works *******.
    Please, our all-loving all-powerful God, would not just leave us to fend for ourselves after meddling, that’s right meddling, for so long.

    Finally, you’re second to last paragraph is disgusting. Your target has to defend his/her lifestyle because it is under attack. By sinners like you.
    I’ll tell you what homosexuality is. It is a test by God. Those who accept them as equals and respect them, will find his favour. Those who protest with signs like “God hates fags,” and quote Lectivus. Or describe them as abominations, (people like you.) well be judged accordingly, and ungenerously.

  6. Alex, I have edited you vulgar language out. If you feel the need to ramble, please do so in a more civil manner, otherwise not only do you truly show the evil in your heart, you lack of civility, and you inability to speak with coherent and meaningful words, but you also belittle you home life and those that had hoped that you would turn out better.

    Homosexuality is a sin, Alex, whether you like it or not. Further, the Old Testament is relevant today, and has been for 2000 years – just as Christ and His apostles – because it is the moral foundation and the prophetic compass to Christ and His holy Church. You would seek to scold some on judging when in fact you yourself would do the same, and provide nothing but a ‘hope’ that you will be proved right at some later date by men in white coats.

    Homosexuality is not in our genes, but in the hearts of those that would corrupt the natural use of their body to one that is an abomination before God. One is not born ‘gay’, but chooses it, either consciously or subconsciously. This, like others sins, required repentance.

    Alex, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that one day you will understand your post here and find it to be a reminder and an eternal reminder that you deny the only true God, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ unless you will humble yourself down to the Maker of your soul and seek His forgiveness.

    • I don’t even know what to say to this post. On one hand you are stating that homosexuality is a sin because God says so- then you say that people decide to go against God and ‘become’ gay. Then you judge someone on their beliefs and yet ‘preach’ the way of the Lord. Really? So- people who are alcoholics choose to be that way because they want to piss off God? They want to damage their bodies and live a sinful life because it makes life that much better. When that alcoholic dies and goes to heaven to be with God- they are flung back into hell to be in a place along with all the other sinners like people who have eaten shellfish, people who did not marry a virgin, people with tattoos, homosexuals, liars, etc. Am I getting that right? God turns away anyone who has sinned and sits on his throne and delights in watching all of the ones who turned against him burn in hell in unimaginable pain. Is that the God you choose to believe in? A God who hates people who struggle, people who make mistakes, people who don’t read the Bible 24/7. Actually- it’s those who do suffer on earth due to other peoples cruelty and things that are not in their control- it’s those that he wraps his arms around MORE. You are not the one who was put on earth to judge. That will always remain Gods role and you cannot call yourself a true Christian if everything you say goes against what God has always said- we are made equal and love each other. Deal with it.

      • Cate, thanks for replying. As you can see, I think, in the post and in the comments, my position has evolved to where I take Scripture seriously, unlike the previous homophobic, self-righteous jerk I was when I first put this post up.

      • It’s like the mosquito viewing a 300 pound person: Where do I start first? I do not intend to throw stones, but your post present anything EXCEPT a clear understanding of a biblical view.

        No, you are not getting this right. I’m not sure whose “Christian view” of alcoholics, tatooed people, shellfish eaters and what-not. None of the people who do those things are auto-magically condemned to hell. Of the behaviors you mentioned, only alcoholics might conceivably risk the condemnation of God. There is a difference between what was condemned under the old covenant (old testament) and the new covenant. And while certain practices were “condemned,” generally it was not hell.

        God is viewed as compassionate in the Bible. But sinners are viewed as helpless in their sin. God does not desire to let them remain in their sin, but offers forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Anyone who thinks they will receive forgiveness outside of Christ’s sacrifice are rejected, not because they find themselves in sin, but because they reject the escape from sin God offers.

        “God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but through Him the world might be saved.” (John 3:17) Christians are sent into the world to warn sinners that loving sin is a rejection of Christ. That requires humility, both of the one giving the message and the prospective sinner who is meant to receive it.

        We do not present ourselves as sinless, but as people who have discovered God’s escape from sin. When we recognize our sin, we can come to God for forgiveness.

        • except… homosexuality is not a sin. Larry, you keep missing this because of your inability to properly read Scripture apart from yourself.

          Also, your atonement theology seems rather limited, as if we have anything to do with it and it misses much of the Gospel of John.

          • Joel,
            Why are you writing me? I believe your view is so entrenched that God Himself could not persuade you. All of your comments to me in the past lead me to believe discussing anything with you is a waste of my time. I tried. My post was written to Cate, not you.
            Larry

          • It’s my blog, thus all posts are to me, Larry.

            I pity you, and I will pray for you. Your sin is so powerful, it harms even those you never come in contact with.

          • Joel
            But it says so clearly in the Bible it is a sin, even a 9yr old could understand. Why do you still deny it?

          • Deborah – if your 9 year old can read Greek and Hebrew, that is amazing, but why are you talking to him about gay sex?

  7. Alex,

    Can you recognize the level of pride and rebellion in this sentence? “If that makes me bound for eternal hellfire so be it.”

    That sentence demonstrates that you don’t care what God thinks about homosexuality since it feels right for you. Romans Chapter 1, and 1 Corinthians Chapter 6 are some New Testament references concerning homosexuality. But again, since hell is the punishment for unrepentent sin then you have plainly stated that you will accept that punishment regardless of scripture.

    Also, I don’t think you can label anyone here a “religious extremist”, unless a discussion makes you an extremist…in which case you’re a homosexual extremist. Isn’t that silly?

    “it’s a gene”…This argument has been around for at least two decades…(I’d imagine longer but I’m relatively young so I can’t say for sure.) Since “science” hasn’t “found the gene” yet why are claiming that it exists? To put it simply, Science, you’re ignoring it.

  8. Hello,

    I have been striving, and fighting, back against the vain, corrupting spread of “homosexuality” and “lesbianism” across many, too many, web and blog sites.

    It is heartwarming to see some others making a stand with truth, soul and conviction, for the greater well-being,and for the greater glory of the Creator, against this corrosive, jaded, arrogance.

    There is still a way to go.
    God willing, things will get back onto the right way.
    Real harmony, true balance, the true, soulful union, of man and woman.

    Bless you,

    SKOT

  9. I belive that homosexuality is sin too, and teaching it in school, is terrible…if My children were little I surely would homeschool them…God bless you,I will pray for you.

  10. Thank you, Deb. We find that in homeschooling, we are able to spend more time with our children and have the education actually education and God focused. My 6 year old is learning Latin and the Bible!

  11. As a believer of the christian/chatholic way, i KNOW homosexuality is NOT a sin. Ironic, isn’t it!? People just like to go by whatever the bible say to them when it was people THEMSELVES who created the bible, NOT our lord. The bible was altered too many times just to follow our interests that it has nothing to do with the true teachings of God, but the teaching of some old, dead philosophers (yes, i meant Lectivus). Homosexuality is NOT a choice, it falls into the “Nature vs. Nurture” concept, which even that method CANNOT prove…. I hope one day you all become enlightened about the truthful teachings!

    Jesus Said: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

    THAT makes sence! So forive and forget, unless you have some homosexual feelings of your own you are questioning.

    And to “Polycarp”: Stop Editing Comments…

    GOD BLESS!

  12. Jesse, the only comments that I edit are the prayer requests and those in which people who usually comment ask me to, to correct typos.

    First, the only way you know what you ‘Jesus’ said is by the bible which has been ‘altered.’ Paradox, that is. You are not a believer in Christ, which means you are excluded from the Christian way. Homosexuality is a sin, and that is not just found in Leviticus, which I assume is what you meant by Lectivus. By the way, Leviticus is the name of the book, not the author, which you seem to imply. Levi was the tribal name, a son of Jacob, and as far as we know, never wrote anything substantial.

    Jesse, it seems that like many who support the homosexual agenda, you have feelings and issues that you feel you must project on others. You realize, of course, that only God can remove these feelings of anger, and whatever else you may have, from you? And that God is the very God of the bible.

  13. Yes, the Bible does say homosexuality IS a sin. God even destroyed those two wicked cities in the Bible, that we all know so well, BECAUSE they were rampant with homosexuality. There are also MANY other references to it being a sin, and a VERY terrible one. I have two questions for you:

    1) If homosexuality is a gene, or it is natural, then WHY doesn’t it effect animals? Simple…because it is created in the human mind…

    2) If God did not intend for two opposite sexes to pair off and mate, then why wouldn’t he have made ALL beings asexual or hermaphroditic? This is also simple…he did NOT intend that. He created two opposite sexes with certain body parts to facilitate that type of reproduction. This is also why there are NO natural body parts to facilitate homosexual activities…

  14. Truth, indeed.

    Scientifically speaking, perhaps homosexuality is evolution’s answer to the human race? (sarcasm)

    I agree with you, of course.

  15. please ur basing all of ur Arguments on the “Bible” and that is Human Written and “Everything humam made is inheriently flawed”.
    You talk about how the bible Helped you… IT WASN’T GOD, u made that decision and u helped urself.

    being Gay is Hard Coded in2 our DNA…
    It’s in our Brain Chemisty….
    Its not something sum1 Can change

    can u change ur eye color thru sheer force of will? if sum1 has Down Syndrome can they “Prey it out”?
    Nope, its not a choice, it sin our Genes.

    and also homosexuality is found in all Species.
    Were just Animals, we are Weak and in comparison to other animals we r rather unevolved, its only cause we have a large Cerebral Cortex that we have survived for so long.
    Heck we even as the Gene that Creates a Tail, but it just neva gets Coded

    and the Bible is WRONG
    - We are the Center of the Universe = PROVEN WRONG
    - The world is flat = PROVEN WRONG
    - Humans have always been as they have been = PROVEN WRONG (Evolution)
    - World is afew thousand Years old = PROVEN WRONG

    u put so much stock in a book Written by other ppl so long ago it doesn’t have any Relevance to modern socity.
    Think for yourselves, Blind Obedience isn’t the Way.

    • …hmm… something tells me you didn’t do research before writing that.

  16. Lukas,

    It is difficult at best to discuss this with you as we have no common ground. The Bible is inerrant as it is God-breathed. When you have faith in God, you are bound to serve Him in the manner which He requires.

    Eye color is not a sin, nor is Down Syndrome. Homosexuality is. It is against God and His nature. It is not in the ‘genes’, as science has proved that. No one has yet to identify a ‘gay gene’. Lukas, and if they did, God has commanded us to overcome those things. If genes were found that ‘encouraged’ alcoholism, that would not stop us from fighting it as a sin. The same way with pedophilia.

    You are quoting ‘talking points’ from the anti-bible crowd. The center of the universe thing is a Catholic issue, not a biblical issue. The bible does not say the world is flat, but speaks of the world being a sphere. Evolution has not yet been proven true – and the logic that requires to be so is, well, illogical. Evolution is based on mutations which over every millionth or more time, and all mutations have been bad for the humanity, yet we are supposed to believe that mutations happened that allowed us to arrive here? Lukas, I have faith, that is a bit far fetched.

    We put stock in a book written by Men as moved by the Spirit of God. It is not blind obedience, but faith with reason. Simply because it contradicts your lifestyle or worldview in no way makes it wrong.

  17. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. To respond to some of the comments:

    1. Homosexuality has indeed been documented in animals.

    2. The bible also condones slavery, multiple wives, stoning of adulters and those working on the sabbath, in addition to homosexuality, so it is unclear why homosexuality should be seen as more of a sin than other laws, and why behaviors that we now find disagreeable (slavery/multiple wives) shouldn’t be seen as okay.
    3. Jesus never discusses homosexuality.
    4. God commanded against the making of any graven image or likeness of him or heaven (Deuteronomy 5:8), and yet the church has sinned against god by recreating the crucifix for prayer and idol worship.

    I believe the selection of certain passages to show homosexuality is a sin without condoning or condemning other behavior is a selective reading of the bible.

    • I am not 100%(i forgot the ten percent for it to be one hundred), but those OT laws were fulfilled. Some laws are made on situation of the time, yes? If that situation is through, then that law has been fulfilled.

      • The fulfillment has a lot to do with promises made to Israel, nothing else really.

        However, my views on this topic have changed considerably.

  18. Believer,

    1.) True, but so has eating the young.

    2.) The Law of Moses condones slavery for several reasons, and it was not the slavery of the American South of what is found in other parts of the world today. It does not condone multiple wives, although it happened. Further, again, Christ set some pretty serious guidelines in the NT as to what was allowed and not allowed.

    3.) Christ discussed what He was there far, and the general rules of the Church. He never disagreed with the Law of Moses on this issue, or many others, and gave His apostles the authority to establish certain things.

    4.) And? Not every sect believes in the crucifix. Not every sect believes that a cross is something to behold. Sounds to me that you just wanted to say that.

    The Bible is clear. Homosexuality is a sin.

  19. God didn’t make the bible.

    a bunch of guys who apparently said they heard the voice of God wrote the bible.

    God would never judge good people the way you say.

    if i told you that god talked to me last night, would u believe me???

    why do u believe in these “prophits”

    what proof do you have

    i have fait in God ONLY

    the bible makes everyone feel very secure about their lives

    i’m sorry. God exists, but the bible is as good as burning wood.

    it does have some great morals to their stories, that aren’t meant to be taken literally.

  20. What the Bible is is a book written by men, with flaws, who wrote down their beliefs and said they were following God. God, I believe, is a concept that people use to explain the unexplainable.

    And homosexuality is hardly a sin. What it is is deviation from the norm and obviously that frightens people who have been spoon-fed by the government and other figures that it is wrong and a sin. Yes, the Bible addresses homosexuality but it was written by men, making it biased.

    I’m bisexual, myself, and I know people who are homosexual who have been beaten by people acting in the name of ‘God’. It’s sickening, that they feel the need to tell people that what they believe is wrong. What this does is promotes a negative stereotype towards those who are religious and it only shows that they aren’t going so much in the name of God as they are going in hopes to repress something that they themselves can’t understand.

    The ‘reason’ regarding reproduction is a terrible argument. Same-sex couples choose not to have children, and I’m curious to know why you don’t lobby against them. Homosexual couples that I know that have been able to adopt provide their children with a loving home AND heterosexuals are more likely to commit the act of child molestation.

    You can believe whatever you wish to, but saying that you’re acting in the name of God rather than your own fears or insecurities is a lie and gives those who do not feel the same way you do, but share your religion, a bad name.

    Have a wonderful day,
    Madeleine

  21. Wow, talk about pig headedness!

    Nice way to totally ignore every point that Madeline pointed out, by the way Polycarp… and where exactly was it that she said she worshipped herself? I must be confused in some way… but of course, that just must be my sinful eyes, right? jeesh, that’s for clearing THAT one up

    I find it hilarious that Maddeleine here, points out all of his information, takes the time to make a valid point and you can just dismiss it all, because she’s about 99.9% right. You want to talk about pride?!Selfishness?! How about right under your own nose!

    You know, people used to call black people sick and disgusting, people used to say that believing in other religions were wrong! There’s plently of things that were ‘sick’ or ‘wrong’ and people have accepted, including the church.

    Funny you should say to Alex ‘what proof do you have that God exists’ because I’d like to ask you the same thing, and since when did this ‘God’ guy need a* like you running about and cutting peoples RIGHTS down?

    McGuire

  22. When exactly did I say anything about lusts or desires? I don’t recall me typing in anything about loving the same sex, or the opposite

    Just so you know, I’m a very heterosexual man, and this is ridiculous.

    You never addressed the fact that Madeleine never said she worshipped herself

    Suddenly I have lusts and desires that ‘don’t allow me to see God’

    MY ignorance? I see you putting things into peoples mouths that were never said, but I suppose that’ more ignorance on my part, correct?

    Or should I ask God about that one?

  23. McGuire~
    I just wanted to say thank you so much for defending what I had to say and, of course, pointing out the fact that Polycarp is twisting our words to make a ‘valid’ point.

    Polycarp~
    I would also like to know where it was in my response that I mentioned that I worshiped myself, and where it was McGuire mentioned any sort of lust. If you don’t have any real arguments to the points made, it is wise to not respond at all rather than making a fool of yourself by creating something that wasn’t there to begin with.

  24. This here, this is disguisting. You all truly believe that homosexual and bi-sexual people are sinners, and that the Holy Bible condemns them. Ha! God loves everyone, including homosexuals. He made us all in his image, and we are all free to be what we are, and still be loved by the Lord. Which means that me and Madeleine above are still loved and accepted by God above even if we are bi-sexual. It’s people that go around spreading hate. It’s those people that are the sinners. People like you.

    Would you be say that God hates black people? Latinos? Jews? Because what you’re doing here is the exact same thing. It’s prejudice, plain and simple. Except you’re not racists, oh no, you’re gussied up your prejudice. You’re homophobics. You’re pathetic.

    Face it, there is no concrete proof that God frowns upon homosexuality. You simply twist the Bible to suit your thoughts, which is a sin to me. Oh but let me guess, I’m worshipping myself here? I’m rambling. Or better yet, you’re going to pray for me? Save your prayers, I have Father O’Shea at my church to do that for me. Having people like you, worthless pieces of garbage, pray for me would simply make me sick.

  25. Madeleine~
    I don’t need thanks for doing somthing right, but I’m beyond thrilled that you were watching, and you’re very very welcome. People like this make me sick, and you shouldn’t listen to a thing they say. You’re a wondeful person (you MUST tell me how Maddieism is, I might covert ;) ) and don’t ever let anything like this get you down.

  26. Polycarp~

    If you cannot see past your lusts and desires to God

    I’m not quite sure what that is… but ehm, that sounds to me like you’re saying I can’t see God through my lusts and desires…. I’m hardly a homophobe, in fact I have several clsoe friends who are gay, and if I was a homophobe, WHY would I be defending someone who has declared themselves bisexual?

    Again, I do apologize, because I must be MISSING something… I don’t think I’ve pointed anything out that you haven’t typed in yourself.

  27. Polycarp~
    Did you not realize that defending someone else is perfectly normal? It’s not the need to develop reading comprehension at all… it’s just someone being nice.

    McGuire~
    Thank you so much, though. I don’t let these people get me down as much as they could but really, some of the comments are terrible and they should really look at themselves, realize what it is they’re saying to another human being in the name of ‘God’ and stop.

    (Ah yes. Maddieism is a very simple method of worship involving doing calisthenics in one’s closet upside-down. XD)

  28. Hey, this is soo cool. Jesus did warn us that the gospel would be offensive to people. God does not change and if you think he does not mention homosexuality as a sin in the New Testament, he does. Alex, you can fall on the solid rock or it can fall on you, your choice. You do what you want, but know this, you have been told the truth through the kindness of God’s love for you. He will not change for you any more than He will change for me. However, I will change for Him, from Glory to Glory. This is very cool. It is beginning. It will not be a popular stand my brothers and sisters in Christ, but keep standing.

  29. God is all powerful, loving, holy, righteous and just. He created everything and gets to set the rules for what is right or wrong. He is all knowing and all powerful – as such, He is able to guide people to write exactly as He wanted. He is also powerful and loving enough to have ensured the message He wanted us to have remains on this earth to help guide us to know about Him and to enter into a relationship with Him. But being Holy, Righteous, and Just causes Him to set a time for when He will judge us for what we do right and wrong.

    Scripture is clear that God loves us all. But Scripture is also clear that we are all sinners. It makes no difference whether we lie, steal, cheat, get drunk, have sex outside of marriage, lust, have homosexual sex, or anything else God has said to not do – they are all sins, and doing them (even desiring them) makes us sinners. None of us are perfect. We have all done, and do and will do, things wrong. We have all desired to do wrong, and will do so again. These desires and actions are what will cause us to not be able to be with God in heaven, unless He provides a way for us to not be found guilty for what we have done and desired.

    God provided us a way to rise above the sinful desires and actions and to be with Him – He sent His Son to become human and suffer and die for our sins. We have only to believe in Him enough to change from following our desires to following Him. We must love God enough to trust Him. If we love Him, we will obey Him. God said to not sin. Without faith, it is impossible to understand what He has said, let alone accept it, and even more difficult to obey God. But HE gives us faith, just as HE gives us the ability to choose Him over ourselves. But make no mistake, it IS a choice that we are responsible to make.

  30. Polycarp, Thank you for your kind words.

    You do well with your blog. Each of us has been created to be used by God in whatever way God chooses. Don’t count your efforts as feeble, merely recognize we each have a style God uses for His purposes in His time. Some will respond more positively to your style than mine, for others it will be the opposite.

    But one thing I have begun to realize lately is that we ALL have our weaknesses. We ALL sin. We ALL fail. But God loves us anyway. God loves us despite ourselves. God works in us to desire and to do His will. Sometimes we do not want to do what we know we should not. Other times we want to do what we know we should not. Other times we actually want to do what we know we should. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail. But the fact is, God loves us anyway – not because of what we do or know, but because He is God. In loving us, He picks us up when we fall down, brushes us off, and gives a light push towards where HE knows we should go (and often we know it too). But each of us have choices to make all the time, towards God or away from Him.

    I simply pray that people will recognize that regardless of what they do or think or feel, God loves them. He will meet them where they are. Then, once adopted, He will teach them hat it means to be part of the family. The new kids will make mistakes, as will the older kids. But God will help them become more and more like the rest of the family – more like Him. Because He loves them, us. It makes no difference who they are or what they do right now – all sins are the same to God. What matters is that they simply come to Him that He may adopt them into His family.

  31. All you have to look for to decide between Male and female, is by the way each is formed, by God, not man,, and for a reason, Man for woman, and woman for man,,, simple.. and anything other than that is preverted and WRONG,,,,

  32. In regards to people saying that homosexuality is a CHOICE, you need to do your research. It has been studied & is thought to be in the genes….sort of like a disorder. I’ve heard some christians argue and say God doesn’t make mistakes but would you call people that are mentally handicap a mistake? Or what about someone with down syndrome;Is that a mistake? Its not their choice to be that way its just how they were born. Same as for homosexuals.Something in their bodies are a little different. Also if you talk to many of them, you will find that TRUE homosexuals have reported liking those of the same sex from a very young age. As far as the bible is concerned and am a firm believer in many of the lessons and teachings but at the same time you have to realized that times have changed. What about when the bible said not to eat pork which Im pretty sure many of you eat. There are many practices int he bible that definitely don’t apply today. Also“The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals, and 362 to heterosexuals. This doesn’t mean God doesn’t love heterosexuals, it’s just that they need more supervision.” In order to find a list of things that don’t apply today, refer to: http://mindprod.com/religion/biblestudy.html
    Ask your pastors and they will agree that this is true! I’ve studied at seminary, so I understand your want to defend the WORD OF GOD but please do your research. Do you even know the original translation of the bible? Do you know that everything doesn’t translate over into english in the correct manner & some words and original defintions have been altered or changed.Do you even know who King James is? I could go on all day. In end, everyone is going to believe what they want but all I have to say is make sure you research subjuects to the fullest before you make these general statements.

  33. Eric,

    It really makes no difference if one is born with what will become desires for homosexual sex or not. The fact is, God called Homosexual sex sin – in both the new and old testaments – if you don’t feel comfortable with a modern version, go back to the hebrew and greek and translate it yourself. The scriptures say the same thing in both the OT and NT.

    If one is born that way, one still has the responsibility to obey God, who said not to do it. If one is not born that way and becomes that way during early development (which for all intents and purposes is essentially the same thing for the person experiencing the desires), one still has the responsibility to obey God and not sin. If one becomes that way because of later developmental issues, one still has the responsibility to obey God and not sin.

  34. Well actually, in the old testament their were people with several wives, please look it up.That has nothing to do with “SCIENCE” Also, in some countries having several wives are a part of everyday customs today. So would you say that those people are sinning? NO you wouldn’t. You are simply saying what you were taught from your pastor. You don’t even know where the bible you’re reading is derived from or what the original laguage was, so in reality POLYCARP you’re only saying what you were TAUGHT and not what you RESEARCHED. To make matters worse you seem to ignore valid points & continue stating rehearsed lines that you were taught to say.Please do your own research.
    And WBMOORE it would make a huge difference whether someone was born that way or not.Thats where the issue of CHOICE comes into the picture. If you were born with something similar to that of a disorder than you CAN’T help it because thats what makes it a disorder.

  35. Eric,

    Polygamy has nothing to do with homosexual sex. Stay on topic please. Just because something is mentioned in the Bible does not mean God condones it. In fact, God said polygamy is bad and not to do it ( Deut 17:17).

    I’ve already done at least one post on what language(s) the Bible was written in. New Testament was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Old Testament was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and translated into Greek.

    Now that we’ve dealt with those red herrings.Do you have any others you would like to deal with?

    Believe it or not, many people read Greek and Hebrew. Many people have been to seminary – I’ve found it does not matter much – what matters is how much actual research and reading you have done and whether you believe God is powerful enough to create the world and have His message written and maintain His message through the centuries or not. Its my experience that those who don’t trust God that much have a small view of God and are not likely to have a saving relationship with His Son.

    Eric, no it makes no difference at all. Some people claim that they are born alcoholics – but they still have the responsibility to not be drunk (God said to not be drunk). If someone is born that way, it may be because of the sins of the parents, or it may be because God wants to deliver them from it, or it may be because God wants them celibate. You see, even if someone is born that way, they still have the responsibility to not sin.

  36. In fact, God made it clear the pattern for marriage is to be one man with one woman.

    1 Corinthians 7:2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

  37. Polycarp,

    You’re welcome. You’d be surprised how many responses I get from folks on this particular topic.

  38. For the record wbmoore, I brought up polygamy because polycarp brought it up. So address him with staying on subject. Secondly, for the record you both are just saying what you heard from your pastors without doing any research on your own. If you are born a certain way, whether it be an imbalance or a disorder you cannot help it and thats what makes it a disorder.That is just the FACT of the matter. So therefore it is not a CHOICE. How can you explain people saying they are gay from a very young age and parents verifying this information. Its not a choice it was obviously how they were born. Also Polycarp, the fact that you call my ideas stupid reminds me of a playground argument between children, please be mature about the conversation. You also can’t say a group is going to hell because of their customs and practices. Since you know the bible so well, it says faith without works is dead, not faith without being gay. Some homosexuals live a more honest and righteous life then “straight” people and and when it all comes down to it its based on their personal relationship with God. The bible also says that Jesus doesn’t like those that are judgmental….such as the Pharisees. They looked down upon others. The Pharisees complained that the disciples ate with tax collectors and sinners, which was also only a violation of their tradition (Luk 5:30); they complained that Jesus did that too (Luk 15:1-2). Again, these acts by Jesus and the disciples were not violations of God’s commandments. Because of the falseness of such teaching, Jesus warned people to beware of the doctrines of the Pharisees (Mat 16:11-12). Thats what you all are, modern day pharisees.
    Polycarp, you can also ask your bible about the translations and different interpretations of the bible. Different translations can change definitions of passages. The fact is that the ORIGINAL writings of the bible were based upon God’s divine word. NOT all these many interpretations that you read today. One wrong definition of a word can flip an entire passage.

    One lesson I have learned my latest study is the potential pitfalls of Bible translation. From my studies I have learned that language leaks”.
    Language is ever changing words that change meaning over time, (linguistic drift), accrue meanings that attach themselves. In short a word can change to mean the exact opposite of what it once did.
    Translating from one language to another in some cases is virtually impossible, on a word for word basis.So we lose a great deal of vital information in the lack of English equivalents and hence meaning. So therefore some translations of certain passages have been found to be incorrect.
    Polycarp you still haven’t told me who King James is and what original language the bible was written in. Stop saying what you’ve heard someone tell you.

    All gays are not going to hell. There are some that believe the bible, for if thy shalt confess with thy mouth and believe in thy heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. It doesn’t say if you are gay and confess then you aren’t saved. Combine that with good works and you are fine. FAITH and living a good life equals heaven.

  39. Eric,

    You are correct in that Polycarp was the first to mention polygamy. my mistake. However, after that, your post is full of error.

    You have no idea what you are saying about me simply repeating what my pastor has said, rather than having done my own research. This is a common ploy from the homosexual community that attempts to infuse doubt in the credentials and accuracy of the people of whom the accusation is made. Please, be original. But if you are going to make such accusations, be sure you have done your research of the ones whom you are accusing. In fact, I have been to Bible college. I have been to seminary. I have been a missionary. I have been a pastor. I have read and translated from the original, though I use lexicons from people who have a much better grasp of the languages than I.

    Third, you speak in ignorance of the difference between how a person is born and what a person does. Whether one is born with homosexual desires, or not, is irrelevant. What matters is whether one has faith and what one does. Do you have faith that Christ suffered and died for your sins, as we need to have to be saved (John 3:16)? Do you choose to not indulge the sinful nature, as we are told to do in Galatians 5:13? Do you choose to take every thought captive to make it obedient to Christ, as we are told to do in 2 Corinthians 10:5? The last two things are simply the obedience to God we are told to have (John 14:15-24), which give evidence of the repentance from sin to God which we are told to have (Acts 26:20). These are things that matter – not how one was born.

    Eric, you said, “You also can’t say a group is going to hell because of their customs and practices.” God said it. God said the whole world is accountable to Him (Romans 3:19). God said all have sinned (Romans 3:23). Everyone who rejects Christ and does not accept His words will be judged (John 12:48). God will judge the sexually immoral (Hebrews 13:4). The Lord will come to judge the ungodly and those who have spoken against him (Jude 1:14-15). God will judge us according to what we have done (Revelation 20:11-15). We are told, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Those who are cowardly, unbelieving, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, and those who practice magic arts, idolaters and liars will suffer the second death (Revelation 21:8).

    So, God said people who do certain things will be judged and will not inherit the kingdom of God and will suffer the second death. You are free to believe Him or not. So yes, there are plenty of people who are “going to hell because of their customs and practices.”

    You wrote, “Some homosexuals live a more honest and righteous life then “straight” people and and when it all comes down to it its based on their personal relationship with God.” There are plenty of people who are nice, honest, and righteous as we identify these thing – but they do not love God, they do not trust in Christ, nor do they obey Him. If they do not have the obedience that gives evidence to the faith they are suppose to have, they do not have faith. WIthout that, they are condemned to the lake of fire. There are plenty of people who claim to have a relationship with God, but who do not love Him or trust Him or obey Him. These people fool themselves. There are huge numbers of people who go to church and claim Christ who are not saved and will go to hell – this fits what Christ has said about there will come a time when Christ will say He never knew people who claimed they worked on His behalf (Matthew 7:22-23).

    Then you said, ” Jesus doesn’t like those that are judgmental”. Again, you show your ignorance. Jesus said, “If your brother sins, rebuke him” (Luke 17:3). We are told to recognize sin, expose sin, and have nothing to do with those who call themselves brothers and yet do these sins (Ephesians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 5:11; Jude 1:3-4).

    Many sinners want to do what they wish and refuse to see the truth because they do not fear God:
    Psalm 36:1-3
    1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin. 3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.

    Unrepentant sinners value ‘rights’ and the ability to change society to condone their sin. But listen to Christ:
    Luke 16:15
    He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God’s sight.”

    So often we want to embrace our sin and justify ourselves instead of embrace truth and recognize and reject our sin. Bur God is clear that we must reject sin and embrace God. If we deny the word of God, who said He detests it when a man lies with men as with a woman (Lev 18:22). If you claim to love God, you will obey Him. He made it clear homosexual sex is sin and to not do it. If you are gay and claim to believe but do not turn away from homosexual sex, you are not saved.

  40. Oh Dear Polycarp tsk tsk tsk! The fact that you are calling my ideas garbage and calling them stupid shows that I am getting under your skin.It also makes me laugh. I have not once called your ideas stupid, although they are ignorant. You also go on to tell me where my ideas come from, claiming that I got it from those who are rebellious. Well actually you would be incorrect about that buddy. My ideas come from research done on my own, I’ve studied at seminary. Unlike you I don’t believe ANYTHING people tell me without looking it up and researching on my own.

    Yours comes from saying what you’ve heard. Also you go on to tell me that I think I know everything, which I also never stated.On the other hand it is apparent that you are the one who thinks you know everything because you never respond to the arguments that people give you, you only repeat the exact same thing that you have been saying which is the bible says it was wrong.I’ve presented you real material, which most of it, your PASTOR will AGREE. As I said before the bible says several things in the old testament that were wiped out in the new testament buddy.Example being, The bible says you should kill people who work on Saturdays. “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.” Ex 35:2. You’ll probably make up an excuse as to why this doesn’t count anymore but a lot of the new testament changed some of the beliefs in the old testament. Also for the record, Jesus was never quoted in the gospels as saying anything that directly condemns homosexuals. Repeat that over and over again until you understand it. Better yet, ask your pastor he will AGREE!

    As far as the translations and different meanings. You saying who cares who King James is shows me your ignorance.For the record King James, the person who authorized the translation lived an ungodly life of sexual immorality. In fact, Many preachers and teachers prefer the KJV and use it, because that’s what their congregations prefer and use, but they do not BELIEVE it to be the INFALLIBLE words of God. They are taught in college to USE, PREFER, and RECOMMEND the KJV, but they are NOT taught to BELIEVE it. Most “Christian colleges” teach that the King James Bible IS ONLY A TRANSLATION, and that NO TRANSLATION IS INFALLIBLE. Since your pastor probably went to bible college, ask him about that one also! TRANSLATIONS are NOT the infallible word of God!!!!

    As far as your argument about a child being born with a severe pre-disposition to violence, that doesn’t apply to what we’re speaking about. NO ONE is BORN with a pre-disposition to violence. Everyone knows that this is a learned behavior, whether it be from the child watching television or getting it from people he has been influenced by. Being BORN with a disorder is the same as being BORN GAY.Its the way they were BORN and can’t be changed. A child who is born with down syndrome can’t change how they are,the same is for a child that is born GAY. Something inside of them makes them this way. Take twins for example. One can be gay and one can be straight. They can be raised the exact same way with the exact same influences and turn out different. It’s because homosexuality isn’t a learned thing or brought out through the person’s environment.It is how a person is born! You still haven’t explained how a 5 year old girl starts saying she likes women when she doesn’t even know what “gay” is. She doesn’t even know the word to describe her feelings and hasn’t had any outside influences.

    Also, The American Psychological Association agrees that human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to ACT on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed. The reality is that homosexuality is not able to be changed, not even by therapy. It is how a person was born, and although people claim that they have changed by going to certain counseling groups, those same people have been reported coming back and telling people that they still have the same feelings. Thats because even if a gay person chooses to stop having sex with people of the same sex this doesn’t mean that they’re not gay.Just the same for straight people. If they choose to abstain from sex then this doesn’t mean they are not straight. Being gay is how a person was born and has nothing to do with the physical act of sex so just because a person stops having relations doesn’t mean that this stops them from being a certain sexual orientation. You CAN NOT TREAT HOMOSEXUALITY. It’s not an illness, just how a person was born.

    To put it in SIMPLE TERMS, my scientist friend said it great! Sexuality is about as much a “choice” as handedness is.As recently as the last century, teachers would tie a child’s left hand in a vain attempt to make them right-handed. While a left-handed person can force himself to write right-handed, just as a gay person can force himself to live a heterosexual lifestyle, that doesn’t make the leftie a rightie or the gay man straight. Some people (the ambidextrous or the bisexual) would find it relatively easy to move from one behavior to the other, but for most of us, changing our sexuality would be as impossible as learning to write as precisely or throw a ball as accurately with our non-dominant hand as with our dominant hand.Science doesn’t have “proof” as to what causes left-handedness, either. Like sexuality, it is probably a combination of genetics and in utero environmental factors, reinforced in early childhood by societal norms. But it’s clear that both are most likely fixed at birth.Sexuality is not strictly a genetic trait, like skin color or eye color, but it is certainly not a conscious choice people make.

    In closing, you told me to “GROW UP”. As I said before, it is apparent that I got under your skin.You know nothing about me. I’m actually a well rounded adult with who has studied everything from religion and psychology to science. Your problem is that you can’t debate the FACTS and you haven’t argued any of my POINTS. You just keep repeating what you learned. You keep saying you’ve done research but from your reply’s I can tell that you are saying what you heard your pastor say or what you’ve read on whyhomosexualityiswrong.com. I too believe in the word of God. Only difference is I believe in the correct word of God, not these current translations. I also believe in Romans 10:9-10.If you believe in God and Christianity and the New Testament then you have to take it for what it is. The writings of the New Testament do not deal explicitly with the subject of homosexuality. Just like the new testament changed a lot of things. A person is saved once they confess with their mouth, whether they be straight or gay. Also salvation and eternal life is a gift from God and God doesn’t take back his gifts. So all in all polycarp you need to GROW UP and research a little more. I have REAL debates with theologians often and they would tear you up one. One thing I do know about you modern day christains is that you say the bible this and that but don’t know the real history behind the word of God. Although I don’t believe in the Islamic faith, I know some Muslims that would tear you beliefs to shreds because they study what they believe and know the ends and outs of it. Polycarp, people like you REGURGITATE a passage of the bible without knowing the truth at all. Example being, “who cares who King James is? That is a big part of the history of the Bible. Also, you were wrong about the translation of the Word of God.Oh Dear Polycarp tsk tsk tsk! The fact that you are calling my ideas garbage and calling them stupid shows that I am getting under your skin.It also makes me laugh. I have not once called your ideas stupid, although they are ignorant. You also go on to tell me where my ideas come from, claiming that I got it from those who are rebellious. Well actually you would be incorrect about that buddy. My ideas come from research done on my own, I’ve studied at seminary. Unlike you I don’t believe ANYTHING people tell me without looking it up and researching on my own.

    Yours comes from saying what you’ve heard. Also you go on to tell me that I think I know everything, which I also never stated.On the other hand it is apparent that you are the one who thinks you know everything because you never respond to the arguments that people give you, you only repeat the exact same thing that you have been saying which is the bible says it was wrong.I’ve presented you real material, which most of it, your PASTOR will AGREE. As I said before the bible says several things in the old testament that were wiped out in the new testament buddy.Example being, The bible says you should kill people who work on Saturdays. “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.” Ex 35:2. You’ll probably make up an excuse as to why this doesn’t count anymore but a lot of the new testament changed some of the beliefs in the old testament. Also for the record, Jesus was never quoted in the gospels as saying anything that directly condemns homosexuals. Repeat that over and over again until you understand it. Better yet, ask your pastor he will AGREE!

    WBMOORE this was in response to you also. Only thing I have to say to you is in reference to me saying a group is going to hell. You proved my point by saying that the entire world has to answer to God. My point was that you can’t single a group out. Since you quoted Romans then go to Rom 10:9-10. If you confess that God raised Jesus from the dead you are saved and this is the new Testament.Those who are gay can be saved!

  41. My comment posted at 5:33 is the correct one. The first one was doubled or tripled. I don’t know how that happened.

  42. Eric,

    Let us see what in my post you chose to ignore:
    1) whether I had been to seminary and/or done my own research or was just regurgitating what some pastor has said.
    2) the Bible where God says God will judge the sexually immoral (Hebrews 13:4)
    3) the Bible where God said to not indulge the sinful nature, (Galatians 5:13).
    3) the fact that we are to take every thought captive to make it obedient to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5).
    4) whether you obey God or not ((John 14:15-24)
    5) whether you give evidence of the repentance from sin to God (Acts 26:20).
    6) the fact that I said how you are born is irrelevant.
    7) the fact that entire groups of people who are “going to hell because of their customs and practices.”: “Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Those who are cowardly, unbelieving, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, and those who practice magic arts, idolaters and liars will suffer the second death (Revelation 21:8).
    8) the fact that we are to point out sin and have nothing to do with someone who calls themselves a brother yet is sexually immoral (or commits other deeds of darkness) Ephesians 5:5-11; 1 Corinthians 5:11; Jude 1:3-4.

    The one thing you did comment on was that all of us are accountable to God. But you ignore the fact that God has said there are certain groups which will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    You mention Roman 10:9-10. Yes, we need to have faith and we need to confess what God has done. But realize this: there is a great difference between having a saying faith and a saving faith. A saying faith is simply a belief, which without evidence is worthless, as James was so kind to point out in James 2:14-26. A saving faith is one which has evidence to demonstrate turning away from sin and towards God (Acts 26:20). Otherwise, you are simply a broken off branch and do not belong to the family of God (Romans 6). You ignore the context of Romans 10:9-10, when you ignore the rest of Romans. Romans 6:12-14 tells us to not let sin reign in us. Romans 8:5-8 tells us that those who live by the sinful nature can not please God. Romans 10:21 tells us why God why God cut off the Jews who did not believe: obstinence and disobedience: Romans 12:1-2 tells us to not be conformed to the pattern of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

    We must obey God in all things, but most especially when He said to not be sexually immoral – which includes homosexual sex (Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:18-32). If you choose to disobey God willfully to the end, then you will most likely be among those whom Christ will tell, ” ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” (Matthew 7:23).

    If you don’t agree that homosexual sex is a sin, check out any of my posts regarding it by going to my blog (http//wbmoore.wordpress.com) and search for ‘homosexual’, or just use the category ‘homosexual’ on my blog. I even have a post showing where Christ spoke out against all sexual sin, including homosexuality. Out of politeness to Polycarp, we can discuss my post more there.

    The difference between you and me is that I recognize my sin and confess it and turn away from it. Sometimes I have to do it repeatedly, but I do so none the less. I suggest you do the same.

  43. The subject of homosexuality brings up so much hate on both sides. I am not a member of the relgious right nor a homosexual. I am however married and believe marriage was meant to be a union between a women and a man. I also believe that homosexuality is wrong. As with others who feel it is not wrong, these beliefs are simply opinions and only that. I don’t profess to know what God thinks or feels. I find the problem comes in when my opinion makes me a homophobic person and/or my opinion is taken away from me. Thus infringing on my rights. When I am made to accept something I disagree in. Just like the homosexual, I as a heterosexual person am entitled to my opinion. As with the homosexual who stands up their beliefs. I too have a right to stand up for mine. I don’t think that makes me a homophobic nor someone who is pushing my views on others any more than the homosexual is pushing theirs on me. My opinon is no more stated in hate for the homosexual than theirs is or should be in hate for the heterosexual.

    Just some points to ponder!

  44. I have reviewed the conversation on this blog and I must conclude that we as human beings, overall, will believe in something. Some of us live by the Bible; others live by the law of the land and others on humanistic ideologies. It is all about Faith.

    The bottom line is we will either choose to believe the word of God (The Bible) or choose to believe our own philosophies/ideologies and make that the final authority in our lives. Something will be the final authority, whether you are an atheist or Christian, you cannot not believe or live by something.

    The Bible declares that if we believe not, God still abides faithful. 2 Tim 2: 12-13 God is still God and that does not change. If we believe not on the Lord Jesus Christ, we are condemned already; there is an automatic consequence built right in. John 3:16-21

    On the issue of homosexuality, if you choose to or not believe what God declared as sin is your choice and as a result of that choice there will be consequences. However, you cannot be a Christian and accept homosexuality. It is clear that God has condemned that behavior, in both Old & New Testaments. There is no interpretation needed.

    However, you could choose to believe you were born that way based on your reasoning or some philosophy. But it cannot be based on The Bible there is an inherent contradiction.

    God is Supreme and knows exactly what He wants to say. There is no contradiction in with God. He is explicit in his commands. The bottom line is whether we will choose to believe the Bible as the word of God. If you choose to believe this, you should conclude that homosexuality is not God’s will for mankind.

    If the Bible is NOT your foundation, you may very well believe that homosexuality is a result of chemical changes in the brain or alright because human beings have needs or it is your right has a human. If your belief is not bible base you will not accept the consequences outlined in it. Therefore every reference to the Bible will seem illogical to you. However, that does not negate the consequences of lack of faith and obedience. In addition there is still no conclusive scientific evidence on whether or not there is a homosexual gene or that people are born gay.

    Whether choose not to believe it or not, GOD LOVES US ALL. He does not want us to walk in confusion but in light and information. When God says, “do not” He means what He says. The command “do not” is because He loves us.

    To believers, the instructions of the word of God are clear. As believers we must not muddy the waters of God’s explicit instructions with personal interpretations. We question God’s commands when we don’t want to walk in obedience to his instructions or we seek to compromise His standard. We hide behind or showcase our intellectual prowess or claim of higher learning (thought) and consciousness. That is pride. Jer. 9: 23 Thus says the LORD, “Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; 24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.

    God told Adam do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil for in the day that you eat you shall “surely die.” The grey area came in when the serpent questioned what “surely die” meant. As a result of their decision (disobedience), there were consequences. The physical death of Adam was not immediate but death came nonetheless. Death was separation for God’s presence. Gen 2:17

    God does not give blind commands; He lets us know about the consequences when we fail to follow his commands. Christians follow the word of God out of obedience and knowledge of the consequences. So the argument, not related to this blog, that Christians follow the Bible blindly is untrue.

    The Bible clearly declares what is wrong and right. When we question an explicit command, then we must question our motives. It is through ulterior motives that we seek to circumvent the commands of God to fulfill our own lusts and desires. Like good parents who give their children instructions and guidelines, the motivation is not bondage but love and protection. God is no different.

    God will not tell us not to do something, if He has not provided the resources for us not to do it. He is not an evil God looking to frustrate us. He is a kind and gently God and desires to give us good gifts. He can help us no matter what situation we are in, but we must choose to believe. If we can believe ALL things are possible, Mark 9:23.

    All of us know or have a sense of right and wrong because we hear the voice of God instructing us- ALL OF US, which is why we will be without excuse when we stand before Him on the day or judgment. God will send people, use a small voice anything to get our attention to get His message across to us. God does not want us to perish (in hell) and He speaks to all of us in some form or another because He loves us and wants us to be with Him (in eternity). That’s a loving God.

    The stand of Christians against homosexuality is not one of hate, to be a Christian and to hate is a contradiction in terms. It is out of love God has for us that we express concern and we plead. The decision is yours ultimately.

    Therefore, I plead with those reading the blog to listen to the still small voice that speaks to all of us and step out in faith to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believe the Bible, His word and trust Him. All the answers we need are in the Bible. It is not outdated. It is relevant and current to our lives as human beings.

    Like Adam in the garden, you will choose to believe (obey) or not. Either way, there are consequences for your decision. Choose the Lord Jesus Christ!

    God Loves Us!

  45. What do you say about non gender people. There are certain people for whom gender and sex is not a binary black white decision. Some hermaphrodites are able to form as males or females biologically. This is a sort of choice, so what do you say about their sexual lives. Can a hermaphrodite be a homosexual, or was it rather the doctors and parents made the wrong decision when deciding its his/her gender?

  46. I would agree, Polycarp. I would actually go so far as to say the parents did not have the right to make such a choice, even though it is a common thing to do in such cases.

  47. I am not sure how I would handle the situation if my child was born in such a way. Emf, do you have any more questions or concerns? Do you have experience in this area?

  48. Just to clarify. What I meant by choice was to raise them “normally”, either as a boy or girl, so that they would have a less agonizing childhood. When they go to school, it seems to me that it would be in the interest of the child to love and pay attention to the child like any other while deciding how to treat the child. Like every child these are absolutely unique and require a special upbringing that cannot be a provided by cookie cut instructions from psychologists, theologians or other parents. I didn’t mean to say that the parents suggested medical procedures. I just wasn’t sure how you had interpreted what I said earlier.

    I don’t really have any clear opinion on this topic and further think it’s beyond anyone(particularly me) but the child/adult that is or was a hermaphrodite and God to understand this particular situation. That being said the parents do have an obligation to act in the interest of the child before the child is completely autonomous. Some action will be taken and will affect the child. I don’t have any directed questions. Also I’m sorry to have veered the convo off course. I do appreciate the insight wb and poly.

  49. emf, I had thought you meant gender assignment as a surgical procedure.

    I thought you were clear the second time. I really dont know how a parent would treat the child in such a way as to avoid gender. But I think its important to try to do so.

  50. I have reason to believe that homosexuality is a choice. One isn’t born gay and there is no gay gene. It is possible that homosexuality is influenced by one’s environment. I also think that homosexuality is brought about by sexual abuse and other kinds of abuse – most likely from the same gender. It could be that because one never felt accept by members of the same gender that he reaches out and views them in a sexual way.

    So, being homosexual is ultimately a choice because one has control over how he will act.

    I don’t believe gays should be allowed to marry because it isn’t what’s best of society. Furthermore, most gays don’t really want to marry, but merely rub homosexuality in the faces of most Christians.

    And as to whether Jesus is G-d or not? I don’t believe he was G-d, but he seems to be a worthy role model and probably one of the best.

    • of course homosexuality isnt a gene you one minded f., it’s a sexual orientation.

  51. I read a few posts, after that I decided just to post what I know.
    I think it is ludicrious for anyone to judge anyone. I know in the good book it says something about God being the only one to judge. With that being the case aren’t all of you who are putting your 2 cents in judging others actually going against everything you believe in?
    I am not homosexual, by the way, I just believe in the true word of God.

  52. I totally should have known better than to say anything to you radicals. I guess it’s holy and righteous to be condescending and a basic jerk. If you don’t want anyone to disagree you shouldn’t put it as an open forum. I did not disagree nor did I agree. It is morally wrong to judge, and I was calling you and your friends out on that. I am a better christian than to keep this ridiculous argument going on anymore, this is my last post. God bless, I do believe you shall need that.

  53. Matthew 7:1-5
    “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

  54. Polycarp, have you ever heard of a straw man argument? And the fact that this is the tactic you have repeatedly been using to argue with people here? Firstly, please learn to spell correctly, there are numerous errors with your spelling so please do not comment on someone’s “reading comprehension” unless it is your own.

    There are so many things wrong with the things you say. After you realized that one of the readers knew that there HAVE been documented cases of homosexuality in the animal kingdom, you replied with, “True, but so has eating the young.” So? Please, cannibalism in the human world has been around forever. You have not refuted the claim at all, merely knocked down the straw you set up for yourself, if even that.

    I further see that in various places you have called people stupid, arrogant, moronic, and used a lot of other insults. Shame on you! Jesus tells us to be kind to everyone, would you dare to believe that he taught people to come to the father using words such as these, while also being completely condescending? Jesus used patience and kindness and you are not representing Jesus well at all I’m afraid. I think you may need to come back to the father and reevaluate the way you are dealing with this–name calling is juvenile and not even relevant to your argument, and you are only alienating people. And no, I will not allow you to define this name calling as “courage” because you “are only alienating people out of your desire to condemn sin”–no sir, you do so because it makes you feel better when you can not support your frivolous claims with anything other than opinion. Come back to the father polycarp, he is the only one who can help you. I will pray for you, that the lord may find you and in his infinite kindness help you at least change your method of dealing with people, and perhaps remove such insults from your vocabulary.

  55. This is ridiculous. BEYOND ridiculous.

    Homosexuality is NOT a sin. I am a supporter of LGBTQ rights. I believe that gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgenders, heterosexuals, or any sexuality should be allowed to have a loving realtionship, get married, and adopt or surrogate children.

    I have no idea if any of you are married, but when you first meet he/she, were you attracted because of their personality, looks, or because they had a vagina/penis?

    Love is love. It’s fluid and changes. It’s the one of many things in life that constantly changes, and should be allowed to change. One day, you meet the person you love, and that’s that. No rules, fights, or arguments should be made.

    Now, a lot of people say I’m “too young” to be saying these things. I won’t give away my age but I will say I don’t really know my sexuality yet, because I’m young. But I do know what love is. Love beautiful, amazing, and everyone should be able to experience it, no strings attached.

    It’s about what’s between the ears, not what’s between the legs.

  56. Also why does anyone post articles like this? It’s an opinion. I wouldn’t get into it if I wasn’t so upset about this article.

    I also dislike the fact so many states have a ban on same-sex marriage. My own state has a ban, and I don’t think it’s fair. What’s the states problem if to guys wanna get married? Sure, they have to get a license and stuff, but if a drunk man and woman can get married by an Elvis in Las Vegas, that should as much of a disgrace to marriage as two men or two woman getting married.

  57. Thank GOD

    Wait, that’s offensive. Thank Goodness.

    Would you mind telling me how so? I’m curious as to how your views have evolved.

  58. So now if the Bible is 105% correct in every way then you better not have ever eaten ham or bacon and if you have a beard you better pay a tax and if you marry a girl, she must prove her virginity and if she can’t (broken hymen due to horse riding or gymnastics early in life) she shall be stoned by the males in your town on her father’s doorstep. If kids taunt you for being bald they will be killed by the dozens by bears and better hope God doesn’t decide to test your faith by destroying your house and mutilating you, and if you sin you should sacrifice a ram to God. So go away if you aren’t going to follow everything. Faggot.

  59. Hello,

    I have not come here to rant nor spout bad language like others. I am here to propose something. I am here to propose the possibility of you being wrong.

    Through mere words, lines from a book, scriptures as you call them, you can truly and definitively say that your views on homosexuality are honest? You honestly believe that being gay is a choice and that is proven because God says it is so?

    I will assume you said yes. To which I reply simply with; how? I understand that you have faith in your God. We all have our own faiths with different beliefs, who is to say that their beliefs are any less honest than your own? I believe homosexuality is natural. Is that true because science says that is so? No, of course not. There is endless possibilities as to why or whether an individual is gay, straight, black, white, brown-eyed or blue-eyed. Why does there need to be a definitive answer to everything?

    You look to your religion for answers. You look to a book. A book with no solid proof behind the existence of your Jesus or God. I will tell you what is a choice – religion. How you interpret your religion is also a choice. What you choose to believe in, is a choice. Believing that being homosexual is decided upon, is a choice. Let me ask you this. Do your choices affect those around you? Yes. Your choice to believe homosexuality is a sin leaves many children, teenagers and adults on the brink on ending their own lives. A much larger impact than homosexuality has on society.

    Lets look at some of your hypothesis in the above. Notice how I didn’t say facts? That’s because they are categorically not facts.

    Homosexuals cannot directly procreate. No, no they cannot. Is that necessarily a bad thing? No. Children are often unwillingly brought into this world through the means of rape or accidental pregnancies. How is that better than not procreating at all?

    Homosexuality is not genetic. That has not been determined yet, so how can you possibly use that as a reasons as to why it is wrong? Where did you find the evidence behind this? That’s right, there isn’t any. No bible could possibly determine that.

    Finally, I will touch on the shorter lifespan hypothesis by saying that is absolutely ludicrous and untrue. There is a living 98 year old gay man. He fought wars for your freedom in two world wars. Yet another statement with no substance behind it that is highly disrespectful. Your whole blog lacks substance and honesty.

    The point of my response was to make you ask yourselves this one question. Am I right? There may be 15 reasons as to why you believe being homosexual is wrong and hurts society, but I can tell you now that the list for reasons as to why religion is wrong and hurts society would be endless. Look at yourself in the mirror (this is a request), give yourself a long hard look and you may see something that you do not like, something that your bible condemns as much as homosexuality. Hatred.

    Kind regards,
    Human

  60. Wow the author is a massive cunt.

    Presuming you’re from America then all religious arguments you’ve just put forward are bullshit as the USA was founded on the principle of no state religion.

    Furthermore you believe in a giant invisible man in the sky who loves you but will condemn you to hell unless you follow his ten little rules. Compare this to the LGBT community who believe that love isn’t bound by gender. Let’s see which is the more plausible and caring of those two hmmm?

    • As a side note, I generally do not allow profanity on my site; however, with this post and considering the amount of vitriol spewed forth by the so-called Right, I’m going to allow it.

    • I’ve read some of your forum where this was posted. Please let “Beware of you” know he completely got my language comment wrong and has come closing to lying.

      Further, as noted earlier in the comment section, I no longer hold to these “values.” Quite the opposite as a matter of fact, but I leave this up, along with the other hate I once vomited out, in order to hold a discussion.

  61. Well that’s a good thing that there is no God. (or at least there is no proof that there is one)

    You all say that homosexuality goes against Christianity, but didn’t you think about the fact that not everybody is a Christian? You think that you, Christians, are the center of the world, of the universe?

    God was ”invented” in a time when people believed the planet Earth was flat. And you trust those people? Because of those ”geniuses” , a lot of people commit suicide. You say that homosexuals are most likely to commit suicide, and that this is a reason why homosexuality is wrong. But those homosexuals who commit suicide, have a good reason. They do it because of people like YOU. So, YOU, homophobic people, push them to commit suicide. If suicide is wrong, and you are the reason to it.. Then YOU, are wrong. YOU hurt society. YOU should be ashamed.

  62. Very old article/blog post, but I can see people still coming along to this.

    Okay, you can bash homosexuality all you like because of Jesus and whatever, but where does it say ANYTHING about lesbians? I know that Leviticus one or something, about being stoned to death if a man lies with a man as he does woman. I have seen nothing against two women living together that Jesus said himself.

    Even then, if you “stone homosexuals”, isn’t that against one of the biggest teachings, “Love thy neighbour”? Also, Luke 6:31: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” So if you bash them, make horrible articles about them and want to kill them, would you be surprised if they wanted to make horrible articles about heterosexuals and go out to kill them, stamping out heterophobia as their main priority?

    Just think about it. Obviously, I do not agree with this and it is your beliefs, but I am lesbian myself and I can not STAND when Christians say “same sex marriages/relationships are wrong” when there is nothing in the bible about lesbians.

    • Just noticed people still argue. Oops. >.> I know you don’t like what you posted before, Author, but there are still a lot of people that would agree, and obviously I want to help them see a teensy weensy bit of sense!

      • Thanks, Korie. That’s one of the reasons I’ve kept this up and generally stayed out of the conversation….

    • Korie,
      We are aware that Jesus did not directly comment on homosexuality. But homosexuality was condemned by the Old Testament law and regarded it as the Word of God.

      The reason we do not stone homosexuals today is that the law was part of a theocractic government given to Israel. Certain parts of it do not apply to New Testament Christians, including our our obligation to execute criminals. We leave such final judgment to God.

      Love does not mean that God approves of sin. I, for one, do not treat homosexuals or adulterers with cruelty. But I would be remiss if I did not warn others that unrepentant sin will be judged by God.

      You say that there is nothing in the Bible about lesbianism. You are mistaken.

      Please read Romans 1:26. “…women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural.” Verse 27: “and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire towards one another….”

  63. “Can you recognize the level of pride and rebellion in this sentence? “If that makes me bound for eternal hellfire so be it.””

    If God hates us for being who we are, then God is evil. Plain and simple. A good, loving God would not have an arbitrary rule that causes so much harm. Have you ever considered that you may have been tricked into following Satan instead of God? It would explain why you’re so full of hatred.

  64. who ever wrote this articule get a life and get over your sociopathic God complex..you loser. Live and let live and do not judge. Jesus did not come to condemn people but here is another sick sociopath christian who misses the point. Homosexuals , cats , trees are a creation of God and who is to Judge but him? So you think you are God and you have no life of your own, opiniated and …guess who also does think that. Satan…even satanists think Homosexuality is wrong. You are evil. And you take the words of God as if they are yours and the Bible says to beware of false prophets who speaks for God but he did not say to them to speak for him ISAIAH. you hypocrite.

    Oh homosexuality is wrong because I am a christin..ut oh wait Satanists think homosexuality is wrong…guess who did not speak against Homosexuals : Jesus why because God is Love.
    You are an idiot…with a God complex…so stop playing God. Even Satan will pretend to be God…so check yourself..not all Christian are blind to God satan…I love Homosexuals and anyone of God’s creations. Who are you to speak against another person and to judge as if you know God’s thoughts…you pagan donkey. God is love not anti homosexual agenda.

  65. An idle mind is the devil’s workshop…good example of that is the pagan God complex person who writes hateful warmongering antilove agendas against strangers to play God over their lives.

    I swear I will pray to God to prove to you you are not God …dare to reply to me with your scripture quotes insulting the True Living God and everything Jesus came to change .Evil. Your are religious but you are not Christian. I hope God public outs your hypocrisy.

    • Mol, I don’t think you’ve read the other comments, nor the warning issues at the beginning of the post. I do hope you take the time to do so.

      • I actually took time to do so and ..should I call you god or Joel..? well who ever you are in your sick mind..I was actually ashamed that you wrote this saying you are a christian ..please be far from us Satan we do not hate and we are wise because we (christians pray for wisdom) are not blinded by ego stroking antics the devil plays. Oh I am better than a homosexual..nah Satan too cool for you…Me and the homosexual e are made by The Most High in his image and know our Father and you are not Him ..ok Joel ? Nice try though.

        • In other words, you haven’t read the comments, nor the warning at the top of the post where I have said I’ve changed my views since the posting of this, nor the link I posted to a recent blog post on HuffPo essentially denying everything stated herein.

          So, nothing you’ve said here is true.

      • and please drop I am so righteous aggravating tone ith people that you use to intentionally patronise others, that is a sin.

  66. please people God Loves you all….this pagan hypocrite who only measures the love of God by his social status is a classic sociopathy ..hence his superiority complex towards others different from him and his reply to a user that went something like ” oh is that so look where I am in life” the real place he is in life is a shameful one where he has no life and exist by bring and pulling homosexual people down..an arrogant ignorant in denial. God has nothing to do with what he is saying. God brought me here to out his hypocrisy and to tell you that He Loves You and the Hypocrite that owns this web page is of Satan. The Bible says you will see false prophets by their works ..and this Joel individual with his Superman avatar is a false prophet egomaniac with a God and superhero complex….and God is not at all in this person his actions are not of God but the evil one.

  67. Just a few points to ponder …
    1.) Just because something “exists in nature,” doesn’t mean it’s right. Murder and stealing exist in nature and I’m sure we all can agree these things are wrong. We all have a sinful nature, different weaknesses that we struggle with. But sin should be called what it is …
    2.) The Bible says homosexuality is sinful. It is astonishing that people argue against this point. It is in the OT and NT. Just read Romans! Whether you believe the Bible or not is up to you, of course, but it is insane for any Christian to say he believes the Bible but then say the Bible favors homosexuality. If you’re a Christian have a backbone on this issue! If you don’t believe the Bible, don’t call yourself a Believer!
    3.) Just because our culture wants to redefine what is right and what is wrong doesn’t mean Christians should go along with It. Right is right even if no one is doing it. And wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it. In the days of Noah, God sent a worldwide flood because the world had become thoroughly corrupt. Everyone was doing wrong … and that didn’t make it right.
    4.) This one is for non-Christians … Is it really a stretch to believe that God wouldn’t have a favorable view of homosexuality? After all, he designed us men and women. Men were designed to be with women! Even our anatomy proves it.
    5.) Perversion creates more perversion … The sexual revolution, a generation raised without fathers, and a porno-saturated nation … Hmmmm, let’s see… Should we really be surprised that more and more people are having sexual identity issues?

    • Bobby,

      1.) You’re right, mostly. Nature isn’t always a good guide.
      2.) You’re wrong. That’s not what Romans, or the other passages you’ll cite, actually says
      3.) If you could get #2 correct, then you’d see how badly #3 is reasoned
      4.) (Catholic) Natural laws believes sex to be only for the tool of procreation. Because that is what our anatomy is designed for. That is the same reasoning you have here. Do you have sex only with your wife for procreation?
      5.) This is a rather ahistorical.

  68. If you tell me gay marriage is not what god wants then your god doesn’t know what love is.

  69. Regarding Anon and anyone else,
    It is unfortunate that some people treat others cruelly in the name of Christ. Personal attacks should not be condoned. But if we learn of the forgiveness of God through Christ, we will have the power to forgive others (Ephesians 4:32) and that hatred and inner abuse can be turned into praise and adoration toward God, the Author of true peace.

    Often, we Christians miss the opportunity to explain that we have struggled against sins of various kinds. And we believe it was the power of God through faith in Christ that enabled us to overcome them. We are not sinless (at least I do not claim to be) but we offer the Word of God and the power of the Holy Spirit to anyone who wants to turn from their sins. If anyone refuses, then I am not aware of any other means to come to God (Hebrews 10:26).

  70. Joel,
    Sorry. I do not intend to read a bunch your articles. Please react to the passage itself and explain to me what you think it means and why the context is not about the subject of homosexuality. It reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with a person who sent me a bunch of You-Tube video links and expected me to address them.

    I will take one of your statements. You say, as I understand it, that the homosexual as the identity of a person is a new concept. Are you serious? Paul identifies homosexuals, fornicators, adulterers… ( 1 Corinthians 6:9). There was not a single sentence homosexuality was acceptable in the early church.

    I will take another one of your objections. The audience of Romans was Jews, Gentiles and Christians. His intended audience was broad, not narrow. He did not confine his audience merely to those of Europe and Asia. Even if he had, certain application of his subject material WAS broad.

    Apparently, he must have expected to find homosexuality in Rome. He was certainly aware of it in Corinth. Some Christians had apparently identified with the life-style before becoming Christians.

    While a direct address as an epistle is certainly true, Paul intended his writings to be taught, in turn, to others. (1 Timothy 4:13-16).

    It is funny that homosexuality defenders broadly interpret the “love thy neighbor” passages as congruous with homosexuality, they narrowly interpret other passages like Romans 1:26-27 with such narrowness of hermeneutics that it allows them to make room for it such that it amounts to a twisting and perverting of the scripture.

    • If you do not intend to read the evidence as presented, then what is the point of discussing it with you? You, then, are your own interpretive measure.

      Paul didn’t use the words either in 1 Cor. or in 1 Tim (although I don’t think Paul wrote that).

      What does actually says is: Ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι ⸂θεοῦ βασιλείαν⸃ οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται

      If you are unable to show these words mean what you think they mean (and they don’t) then your arguments aren’t worth answering. What you will do is to deny evidence, scholarship, and Reason in favor of what Scripture says to you, therefore debasing Scripture and the Christian Tradition.

      I don’t think you understand what “narrowness of hermeneutics” means. Your herMEneutics revolve around yourself, it seems.

    • Regarding the audience in question, it is doubtful you understand the nature of the letter. Paul is writing to the Church in Rome which was still heavily Jewish. No doubt, some Gentiles were there as evidenced by Paul’s latter chapters of the letter as well as the introduction. However, the Jews of Rome were like their counterparts – Hellenized.

      • Joel, Appeal to authority (i.e. Michael Foucalt) is not exactly a substantive response. Is this a discussion or a put-down ego trip?

        • I gave you responses, but you only appealed to how you read them. That’s an authority. I asked and suggested you read Mike for an overview of the history of sexuality.

          It is not a discussion because you have presented facts. You are only saying “I’m right, I know I’m right, and I don’t have to defend my position because God will send you to hell.”

          • Go read “XYZ book” is not a well reasoned argument. It only suggests that you cannot present a coherent logical argument.

            Certainly, we can read a sample scripture like Romans 1:26-27 and, dealing only with the internal content, explain to me what you think it means. Please don’t suggest that I go read “xyz book.”

            1) Can you present a logical argument?
            2) Can you refrained from lashing out at me, calling me “hater” (whatever that means)?
            3) Can you take a certain passage and take the thread of Paul’s discussion without imposing someone’s else’s eisegesis upon it? Most of those passages actually say something. You don’t have make such broad statements as “it doesn’t mean what you think it means.”

            Here, I will give you my email address. Remove the # signs, numbers and asterisks. I don’t want some robot scanning web sites for addresses and sending me spam. ***p###23r****a##x***eon***###@###sbcglobal.net. There are no numbers in my address. The only symbol is the “@” symbol. Larry

          • In other words, Larry, you refuse to gather the facts needed to make an argument.

            Romans 1.26-27 doesn’t mean what you think it means. Why? Because there are facts suggesting otherwise rather than subjective belief. Ironically, sexuality is a subjective concept as well.

            I have shown what it means, but you refuse to read what I’ve already written. Again, this goes back to your unbiblical view of needing only your interpretation of the bible and nothing else. I dare say, with your interpretation held so high, you don’t even need Scripture.

            If you refuse to allow objective material, then there is no hope in helping you understand how badly you are treating Scripture, twisting it in order to propose a hateful God.

  71. The bible does not have a carte blanche taboo on judging. The word “judge” depends upon the context and the meaning. Let’s take a passage like 1 Corinthians 5:11 where the Apostle Paul instructed the Corinthian believers to judge and to take action with regard to immoral believers.

    The instruction about a judgmentalism is indeed biblical. God does not want us to take a knee jerk attitude whereby we are encouraged to heap condemnation upon someone who is in sin. We are encouraged to aid them in the path of repentance and that includes the care that we might fall into temptation. (Galatians 6:1)

    Of course, we might also cite James 4:11.

    I recognize that there are people who are quick and eager to heap condemnation. But let us not take the easy excuse that there are certain sins that God considers particularly bad. It is not true that “no one knows.” We are dealing with the human psyche and the human will. You cannot make people obey God. That is not within our power.

    I do not attribute this practice to demon possession or to bad genes. The matter is complex and I am not sure that the causes are attributable to a single cause, and male and female homosexuality probably stem from different factors. The factors are certainly unclear and not within the personal experience of many of us. But they are not so obscure that they are beyond the power of God. And the answers are not quickly answered as if a person can get on and off of a horse, go through some rehabilitation process or anything like that.

    I do not believe a homosexual is automatically destined to hell. I do believe that it is displeasing to God, clearly so. It is not the worst of sins, I attribute it equal to the depth of adultery, fornication, habitual drunkenness, idolatry, cheating, habitual lying, drug addiction and other things. I believe that Paul was condemning the practice in a general sense (1 Corinthians 6:9). Something like: “The people of the world practice these things, therefore you should not do these. God has bought you, cleansed you and can enable you to overcome them.”

    There is one difference in our modern world that brings it into modern conversation. That is that some people want to justify it and make it pleasing to God. There is very little to compare the political clout with the homosexual advocates. I don’t even know if adulterers, those who advocate pedophilia, alcoholics and others, if they have the comparable political power. Can you imagine if violent people or child molesters, gossips advocated opportunity to practice those things within the church? Larry

    • Larry, that’s a lot of “you” in that thing you typed, but not a lot of God or Scripture. I bet you hate it that people who care for the rights of others have “clout.” Personally, I chalk it up to the fact we are finding out what the Spirit of God has to say to us and we are finally listening.

      You can believe what you want, but as already demonstrated, when asked for real facts, you cannot present anything but “I believe the bible says to me…”

      This is not the way of Christ.

      You can do better.

      • Joel,
        If you want to disregard the Word of God, you will have to answer to Him in the judgment. Not I. How many scriptures do I have to post to demonstrate that scripture is very clear on the matter?

        There are indeed a great many facts, outside of scripture, to show that homosexuality is not good for man. But I don’t have the time nor energy to engage in such a discussion. (Proverbs 26:4)

        Certainly, there are those who are more knowledgable than I am. You can rail and fight and argue and walk away in a self-satisfied manner to gratify your ego. But, in the end you will have to answer to God.

        • Looks like you are proof-texting, Larry.

          I cannot believe you would twist Scripture to your own destruction and worse, to sow hate in the name of God.

          You will have to answer to God for your blaspheming of His name.

          • Joel, I know a great deal about proof-texting. I have books on biblical exegesis and exegetical fallacies. Scripture is clear on the subject of homosexuality. I know that Jesus testified that marriage was for one man, one woman from the beginning of time. That is all I have ever practiced my entire life. I cannot see how that can be destructive to me.

            I have never advocated cruelty or hate to homosexuals. (There is a psychological matter of “projection.” Whatever people experience in themselves, they project such feeling onto people they have often never met. Is that the hate you attribute to me?) So I am not sure how destructive that is. God is the ultimate judge. Let Him decide between me and you.

          • Your “hate” is not allowing someone to be as God created them.

            You are proof-texting by throwing out verses (a later invention). Further, you are proof-texting by not looking at the context of the passage, nor the words in the original language. You are committing serious fallacies here.

            Scripture never once speaks of homosexuality. Further, Jesus never testifies to what you think he does, but instead you must use an argument from silence to promulgate your approach. I’ve asked for facts. Instead, you throw out more ill-founded beliefs based only what you can regurgitate.

            You can say you rely on God, and that’s fine, but I doubt this seriously.

            Yes, let God judge. He will, because God is Creator. However, we are told to seek the truth and the truth of the matter is that you abuse Scripture to fit your own needs.

          • I assure you that I am aware of the context and original languages. I have among my acquaintance some Hebrew and Greek scholars. I know some Greek but I am not fluent. I have a lifetime of study of the bible and some 15 years of it involves various studies of Greek. You speak as if I am a novice. I generally don’t get involved in lengthy discussion like this anymore because people often make up their own minds, and they are not open to anything other than something that supports their earlier opinion.

            I am amazed that you think God’s opposition to homosexuality is a new development in the New Testament or the Old Testament. Widespread acceptance of homosexuality in our society is the new thing, not old wisdom. Generally, societies where it was practiced greatly degenerated into disorder and decay.

          • You have now spent more time defending yourself rather than your position.

            Have you read Michael Foucault? Have you read much of history? The concept of sexuality is new. With a new concept comes a way to deny others something. For instance, race. Race is a social construct. Before this, we had political constructs. Sexuality is a social construct. Before that, marriage and sex was a political construct.

            Keep talking the right-wing talking points, but as of yet you have presented no facts to support your conclusions.

  72. wow I cant believe how insensitive the bible humpers of this world can be… I mean all the slander people put out against homosexualss. They are regular people who just so happen to prefer same sex partners. They arent monsters who are out to molest children, unlike the church has been known for doing just that. In fact I was molested by my hetersexual father, who only concieved me di to raping my mom. So next time u judge homosexuals think about your own morals and saving ur own asses from burning in hell

    • I think you are inventing something that is not out there. I don’t hear people slandering homosexuals. They are not “regular people.” Regular people do not have sexual acts with people of the same gender.

      People who rape others, whether they are homosexuals or heterosexuals are doing wrong. People who have sex outside of marriage are likewise disobeying God. People who have sex with the spouses of other people are disobeying God.

        • No. I am a straight American male. I have all straight American friends. I do not hear people in my circle of friends slandering, making fun of, or trashing homosexual people. It seldom comes up in conversation. There are various views that people have but generally they do not say hateful things.

          • should I list the names of those groups who do?

            Further, I would contend since you are abusing SCripture to denigrate others as “sinful” you are indeed slandering them. Oh, that’s right, you don’t think you are and since you don’t have to present evidence…

        • Joel, I have asked you to explain scriptures like Romans 1:26-27, which calls certain actions as “unnatural acts.” You have declined to do so. “Men with men committing indecent acts.” (NASB) I can read the words in context. What else am I to conclude? You have not provided any logical explanation of the text. “Go read XYZ, etc” is not an answer. “You are a hater” is not an answer. It is obfuscation.

          • Larry, are you now lying? I already posted a link to where I covered it: http://unsettledchristianity.com/2010/01/pauls-use-of-prosopopoeia-in-his-epistle-to-the-romans/

            Romans doesn’t call anything anything by the way. You do.

            You can read English, which is all that you’ve proved. You read it in your English as who you are, taught to read it that way. You do not read it as Paul. You do not even attempt to read it in the Greco-Roman and Hellenistic context in which it was written. Further, as usual, you proof-text. You don’t read the rest of Paul’s thought here. Shame on you.

  73. The point being is that if you actually follow the bible you would lnow there are many flaws with it. You lnow im right and that the bible isnt the anwser to happiness and salbation its the basic guidelines people can choose to use, its also not a socument that gives the hateful people of this world a right to discriminate against other people who choose to follo another example to become a good person. So to recap the bible humpers should all die and burn in hell forever and idc what you call me back im sick of all the hate in the world

    • David,
      Sorry. I [u] do not [/u] “KNOW” you are right. Anyone can make knee-jerk presumptive statements like you have. Your comment was made in the heat of the moment and it is clear that you have not examined the manuscript evidence behind the bible. Larry

        • Joel,
          Manuscript evidence has a great deal to do with it. Unfortunately, David’s objection that the Bible “has many flaws with it” was a very general objection, so it is difficult to know what he meant. However, it is typical that many people who find fault with the inspiration of the bible by the Holy Spirit, do so on the basis of a number of objections. Like I said, it is difficult to know what he meant. They generally object to its age, they find fault with the claims of the bible’s age, translation issues, etc.

          I have had conversations with some people, but sometimes their problems with its inspiration boils down to “everyone know that,” without pointing to any specifics. I merely attempted to ascertain what he meant by reading between the lines. It is possible that I completely missed what he was trying to say.

          • Manuscript evidence is a faulty premise. Simply because are able to generally reconstruct the original text does not mean it is inspired. Further, there is a wide range of views on the nature of Scripture. Is it inspired? What does that mean?

            Further, the word “flaws” here could have its own linguistic challenges. Does he mean contradictions or perhaps history, or even does he might he finds fault with certain elements he believes Scripture teaches.

          • As I said, it is difficult to know what he meant. Many of those who I have spoken to objected the bible’s “many flaws” attacked it from the stand point of its historicity. IOW, their objection to us “bible thumpers” is that they do not believe that Jesus’ apostles, for example, actually wrote what read today.

            I did not claim that manuscript evidence “proves inspiration.” As I said, David’s comment was too general to know exactly what he meant. I took a shot at it.

          • I cannot see how you have proved that God does not condemn the practice of homosexuality. He names it as one of many sins which God condemns along with idolatry.

            He DOES NOT say that homosexuality is not condemned but it is one of many sinful behaviors that God “gives over” to those who reject God. It is true that he likewise condemns Jews who are self-righteous, but he includes all under sin, (Roms 3:19-20)

          • Um… no.

            I don’t think you are getting much of anything, Larry.

            This passage is not about the truth. It is like Job’s friends. They do not speak the truth. Job does, sort of. Here, Paul’s dialogue partner does not speak the truth. Paul does.

            You are upholding error (which Paul is disproving) as truth.

            At no point is homosexuality condemned in Scripture.

            Sin is, but homosexuality is not listed as sin.

          • I cannot imagine where you get that idea.
            1:16-17, The gospel and the righteousness of God
            1:18, The wrath of God against those who restrain righteousness
            1:19, They should know the truth because it is evident within them
            1:20, They have no excuse
            1:21, These dishonored God
            1:23, They distorted God’s image so that their view of God was animalistic
            1:24, God gave them over, let them go their own way
            1:25, They invented a lie about God
            1:26, Like verse 24, God let them go their own way, to their own degrading passions, women with women, etc
            1:27, Men did the same thing, men with men, committing indecency.
            1:28, Since they did not acknowledge God…depraved mind.

            While God judges them, He judges everyone. He is not letting anyone off the hook. All of those things are still wrong. Anyone who does these things can be forgiven. He does not say those things are okay. He condemns all of those things.

          • I explained where I got the idea. I used the original language. The passage in question begins with “gar,” a rhetorical cue to notify the reader that there is another dialogue partner.

            At no point are you answering that. You, instead, are answering only in English and only the question you want to be asked.

          • Joel, Really now? You’re telling me that there is something in the Greek that is not in the English? Is it something that completely reverses what it says in English? I know what it says in English. If you’re telling me that there’s something in Greek that makes homosexuality okay, try it. If you try some fallacious linguistic argument, I know two Greek scholars in my Sunday school class that I can check your answers with. Either of them are competent translators. One of them translated into a South Pacific language. I also have an Greek interlinear.

            But, frankly, I doubt very seriously if there is anything in Greek that completely reverses the meaning in English.

          • Wow… you really don’t get it do you?

            Yet, there is something in the Greek that reverses the normal interpretation of the passage.

            You realize Greek does not translate word for word, right? That there is context, inflection, rhetoric, choice, and a host of purposed grammar situations that are often untranslatable? Great. Someone in your Sunday School class knows how to translate Greek, but do they know the mind of the author? Do they know the role the vocative takes in rhetoric?

            I bet you use Strong’s don’t you?

            You can doubt all you want, but your argument revolves a rather anti-semitic reading of Scripture.

      • Oh, please. No, I do not use Strong’s. I generally use a combination of Wigam’s, the NET Bible, and or my interlinear–IF I have to get into the Greek.

        My Sunday school teacher has translated both the Old Testament (from Hebrew) and the New Testament (via Greek) into a South Pacific language of Papua New Guinea. Yes, I would say he is qualified. The other person used to teach Classic Greek at a small secular college of upstate New York. He came to Dallas some 20 years ago and learned Koine Greek. He is familiar with numerous changes in Greek when the various kinds of ancient Greek were still being used.

        Of the dozens of discussions I have had online with people, EVERYBODY thinks they know the mind of the author. Normally, it is the subtleties and nuances that the Greek answers. Often, for the average reader, the Greek gives little more than a good English translation does. The problems come in when there are more than one meaning in Greek and more than one meaning in English, and a translator or the English reader chooses the wrong meaning.

        A good example is the word “justification.” People think they know what it means but don’t. Insofar as rhetoric devices is concerned, two good examples are found in 1 Cor 15:35 and James 2:18.

        When I took Greek (a lay institute evening course), I didn’t concentrate on the vocative. We barely got through a discussion on the genitive. It normally takes 3-4 good years of concentrated study, just to become somewhat competent. Translating is not enough. People get a year or two and learn enough to be dangerous. I hear of people often using Greek on the TV and radio ( I don’t watch them or listen to them) and they make great popular impressions but don’t know what they are talking about.

        I intentionally avoided discussing Greek with you lest I give the wrong impression. I know there are serious traps for the incautious.

        • Again, you are relying on the English and avoiding any real discussion that the Greek is not a word for word equivalent. Yes, actually, the Greek does give more than the English.

          Look at you, Larry. You are discussing word meaning. I am discussing rhetorical use. I am discussing choice of the original author and what it means and meant to the earliest reader, who would read it in Greek. You are still talking about translation, as if a translation can accurately depict the beauty of the original language.

          Stop blaming everyone for you not understanding the Greek.

          Stop relying on an purely American mind-set that translation is one-to-one and seek to understand Scripture as it was first written and understood.

          You have yet to deal with anything I’ve put forward. Try that.

          • Huh?

            I am avoiding no such thing! That is not an accurate accusation.

            As far as word usage, I was merely pointing out the traps that people get into.

            “You are still talking about translation, as if a translation can accurately depict the beauty of the original language.” Nonsense. I am aware of the differences. But if I am not conversant in Greek, it would be a pretense to claim that I can. But the issue is not the “beauty” of the original but the accuracy of it. What is the point of being beautiful if one is inaccurate. The NASB is sometimes stilted but strives for accuracy. Sometimes, there is no on-to-one word which captures the meaning of the original. The original and the target language have their own separate historical semantic baggage.

            “Stop blaming everyone for you not understanding the Greek.” Huh? Should I claim something I don’t have?

            “Stop relying on an purely American mind-set that translation is one-to-one and seek to understand Scripture as it was first written and understood.
            You have yet to deal with anything I’ve put forward. Try that.”

            Stop making up stuff. Try that! You are making false accusations.

          • Larry,

            I don’t really know how to make you understand this.

            Translation is often not a word for word process. Even if it is, the context is missing as well as other pointers, especially rhetorical uses.

            I use the NASB, but no English translation can convey the rhetoric, if rhetoric is used, of the original author. THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE NOT GETTING. This is not about what the words “say” but what the words mean when they say.

            The simplest analogy I can give you is this:

            “You are blue, today.

            If you translate this, word for word, into any language, you will have to use the word blue (in the new language). What doesn’t transfer is the idiom, or rhetoric.

            Anyone who continues to pretend to read Scripture as if the words on the paper are black and white are ignorant of what the words actually “say.”

          • “I don’t really know how to make you understand this.

            Translation is often not a word for word process. Even if it is, the context is missing as well as other pointers, especially rhetorical uses.”

            That shows what kind of eisegesis you are doing with my posts. Nothing I said indicated that I didn’t know that.

          • Think about it. Anyone who has read a single page from an English-Greek interlinear would know that you normally do not translate anything word for word.

          • Okay… so, again, you refer to an interlinear… You refer to translation. I am talking about the author’s intent and you are talking about words on a page.

          • Everything I have said indicates that you are mistaken about me. You see what you want to see. THAT is your bias.

            Well, that explains your eisegesis. I have studied a great deal of Spanish. I talk with native Spanish speakers all of the time, regularly. But I am not fluent. I know the problems that people encounter: idioms, word meanings, word order, etc.

            If you will not believe me, then you must think I am lying. And there is no point in continuing this discussion.

          • I rely upon reliable translations and an interlinear when necessary. I cannot afford to invest 2-4 years in intensive language study.

            “I don’t think you are lying; I think you are ignorant of the issues.”

            I have had literally hundreds of Bible discussions like that. Three quarters of the time, the first 20 interchanges are wasted because one party treats the other party as if they are stupid. That’s what you are doing to me. I could pretend to know more Greek than I do. But that does not mean I haven’t covered a lot of territory in study.

            If you are going to continue to treat me like you have been, I will assume that you are are an arrogant a*s*s. Because that is how you are behaving.

          • I didn’t say you were stupid. I said you were ignorant of the issues.

            You still don’t get it. It is not just about the Greek. It is how it is used in discourse. You can translate, you can know Greek, you can use interlinears. You can study Greek for 20 years, but if you don’t get the fact it is based on how the author used, it matters not.

          • Well, you are treating me like I am both stupid and ignorant. Your loss. You are not the kind of person who can be reasoned with. I tried. If your next post doesn’t contain an apology of some sort, I am done here.

          • Oh, Larry… I can’t help it you can’t understand basic words… Good luck with Greek… and hating in the name of God

  74. I note you said that this is no-longer your view, so I will not proceed to argue as to how all of these points are bulls*.
    But I thought I should let you know that I found this blog immensely amusing. I’m a writer who was seeking more-or-less a summary of the arguments religious homophobes use to “bash” homosexuals, and this blog was very useful in that regard.

  75. you are spreading hate in this world. you are the one destroying families and would-be families and hurting children, not gay people. and you are doing all this in the name of a book that was written 2000 years ago. grow up and learn to adapt

  76. also, saying that homosexuality is a “learned” behaviour is ridiculous i come from a very conservative country. i did not even know what homosexuality was or that such a thing even had a name until i was 15, 6 years after i knew i was different from all the other boys. please stop spreading our hate and lies

  77. I really don’t get what the big deal is, I mean are you the one sleeping with the same sex … I don’t think so, are you the one that is apparently going to “Hell” I don’t think so. So seriously we all need to stop with the hatred toward homosexuals and just try to be good people all around. If all you do is sit there and judge people your entire life, than you yourself are in fact a sinner. I really wish our world would just learn to get along. So for the love of god can all the hatred stop.

  78. I Love these reasons why gay marriage is wrong. I was talking with my friend (who is a straight female) the other day about why it’s wrong and how it goes against Gods design for marriage and she would not agree with me and kept saying thier “born that way”. I do not agree, it all has to do with how they are raised. I really liked reading this, with Bible scripture to back it up

  79. Homosexuals have a shorter lifespan? Where the hell did you get that? That has to be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. I mean this whole list is indescribably stupid, but that’s a completely different level. There are many things that can affect your lifespan, but sexual orientation definitely isn’t one of them.

  80. And saying that whether or not you’re gay/lesbian is a choice is also ridiculous. Tell me, when did you choose to be straight? Exactly, you didn’t. So what makes you think homosexuals do choose? Try to answer that without including the bible, I highly doubt you’ll be able to come up with anything valid since apparently you have nothing to do but force your beliefs on others, which is exactly what God said not to do.

  81. HAHAHAHAHA you’re such an ignorant redneck chode. Go die, please.

  82. Who wrote these 15 reasons can they really that ignorant. So begin gay is wrong but yet everyone was created in God’s image. That doesn’t make since gay people are still people duh? so that means gay people were created by God. I have a friend (he is strait) and he has two dads and ive know him since the 3rd grade and am only 15 in high school (a high school is were people become smarter unlike these people who wrote this) i didn’t know he had 2 dads till this year and he is normal he is a star baseball player so that just disproved one of your dum reason this isn’t the grace of God because God loves everyone and doesn’t want no one to change because he made them the way they are.

    • Wow. So we pick and choose what we want to recognize as GOD being right? God created all correct, Including gay people? So with that same train of thought…. God made it possible for there to be angels as well including Satan himself. Is Satan not wrong either because if it wasn’t for God there wouldn’t be a Satan? so how does your theory hold up in that argument because God doesn’t make mistakes? God also created people which turn into murderers, rapist, criminals, homosexuals, polygamists, adulterers, liars, and etc. Yes wrong is wrong and free will led to people living sinful lives. I do not judge a person that is gay but his or her free will(that god gave us) is their choice. It’s not my lifestyle and I used to care less about what their lifestyle was because it didnt impact myself. Now homosexuality has gone “mainstream”? Does that make any sense? No more than a country of very intelligent people entertaining whether or not homosexuality is right or wrong. It is funny to see what length people go through to justify in my opinion the dumbest argument of all time! Was a women created to be with a man? Yes! There is NO ARGUING THAT! Period! If you aren’t the Religous type it still is easy to see that men and women are opposites in every way more times than not, with the exception of hemaphrodites. Women are the yin to the men’s yang. They fit together like a puzzle. When you match the two together the wonderful miracle of procreation takes place. They usually balance on another out which makes us complete. Same sex couples make a mockery of what a household is comprised of. two dads o two moms is crazy, especially when one of the partners portrays themselfs as the opposite sex. Just because its not your point of view doesn’t make everyone ignorant. The truth is our country’s history was built on the corner stone of Christianity. Church and politics seem to run in hand in hand throughout history. I do believe in God but I have a hard time believing everything in the bible. Mostly just because it was written by mankind. If the bible was written by someone today claiming to be a translation from Hebrew, it would have in it whatever that person wanted to put in it to tailor his or her beliefs and faiths. Then we might not be talking about is it wrong for same sex individuals… Food for thought.

      • You killed your own argument. You write, “which turn into” regarding those people born and then at some point decide to murder, etc…

        The rest of your argument is based only on sex. Is that the sum of the relationship for you? Procreational sex only?

  83. Dont forget that this website is coming from people who think the world was created a couple of thousand years ago rather then 4.5 billion years by some old dude cloud surfiing high as a kite.

  84. What dolt wrote this? I could spend an hour tearing this ****pile of B.S. to shreds, but I’ll focus on two parts that particularly made me smile. “The anal canal was not intended for that kind of use.” Guess we’re going to have to get rid of everything that’s unnatural then, huh? There goes air conditioning, oral sex, piercings, makeup, etc.

    Second, “Homosexuality is anti procreation.” You spent a paragraph defending this idiotic statement when I’ll use 4 words to settle the matter. Not everyone is gay.

    Simple stuff, people! Good day!

    • Comment edited due to language. Also please not that this post does not reflect the author’s current views as indicated by the note at the beginning of the post.

  85. Top Ten Reasons to Make Gay Marriage Illegal

    01) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

    02) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

    03) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

    04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all like many of the principles on which this great country was founded; women are still property, blacks still can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

    05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of marriages like Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

    06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.

    07) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

    08) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.

    09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.

    10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

  86. I’m sorry but even if you have changed your mind about this what were you thinking??? I mean really, you just repeated half that stuff at least three times. Interesting though I guess.

  87. After reading this, I must say being a heterosexual woman, I am very offended at the way homosexuality is portrayed.

    Anti procreation?! Seriously, gay people adopt plenty of times. Is there a law against being athiest?

    Do not bring the bible into laws and statistics because the bible states PLENTY of things society should NOT be doing, but we do not cause big debates about that. And some of these things are legal, adultry for example.

    I cannot finish reading this article due to the irrelevant points stated, domestic violence, changing the meaning of marriage, I think we can look at the divorce rate in this country and conclude that homosexuals are not the reason for that. Promiscouity and adultry and other SINS are not just faults in the gay community but in society in general. Almost all my friends come from broken families, plenty in which domestic violence played a role, were any of their parents gay? No, no they were not.

    If this is a blog about morals, lets discuss both sides of the community, not just homosexuals. This
    is very fallacious.

  88. Well, I don’t know what the inhabitants of Sodom were doing if they weren’t attempting homosexual gang rape unless they also intended murder.

    • Larry – you do realize gays have sex without raping one another right?

      Your logic seems to be this: Some of the men of Sodom tried to rape visitors. Therefore, homosexuality is a sin.

      You realize that most rapes in Scripture and the modern world are hetereosexual. By your logic, we must condemn heterosexual rape.

      You realize that rape of a male in the ancient world was a way to demean him, to remove his manhood away from him? This would mean the person was conquered. This is why one of the Judges (book of the same name) raped the foreign king – and was blessed by God in doing so.

      • Actually I was not indicting homosexuality on account of gang rape. However, think about it. Lot must have been doing that. He offered his daughters in lieu the angelic visitors. Therefore, he must have believed raping women was less wicked than raping men. Ergo, Lot was homophobic. He said, “Do not do act wickedly…”

        But frankly, I do not believe homosexual rape is appropriate either.

        And it doesn’t matter whether a person was “removing someone’s manhood or not.” Rape is rape.

        • Um, in the ancient world, you couldn’t ‘rape’ a woman with the same effects as a raping a man.

          And now, you are moving the goal posts.

          • Would it matter? Any conquest of a man would be viewed as a victory. There are ancient carvings depicting kings having hooks in their jaws like fish when they were conquered by other kings. The bible tells of kings who cut off the thumbs of their conquests in order that they would not be able to wield a sword as weapon again.

            Do you deny that Lot viewed homosexual rape as worse than heterosexual rape?

          • Larry – it actually did matter in the ancient world. You realize that norms, mores, and other culturally induced constructs aren’t permanent, right?

            Lot didn’t know what homosexual rape was. That wasn’t even a concept during that time.

            What Lot did see as worse than taking property (raping a woman), was declaring war by raping a man. That is the cultural context.

          • There are such things as temporary culturally induced constructs, but male rape isn’t one of them. In that case, wouldn’t the rape of females be equally sinful?

            It is a lot more than a violation of a culturally induced construct. Writing in hindsight some thousand or so years later the Apostle Peter wrote, “…and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction…Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men…felt his soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds.” (2 Peter 2:7-8.

            Peter called it “sensual conduct.” Writing so much later, one might think that the cultural context violation would have either be no longer culturally wrong, or else it was permanently wrong. If it was only a temporary cultural construct violation, I don’t know why Peter it considered wrong. But if it was an absolute example of wicked in Peter’s time, it continued to be so centuries later. And if Peter was calling something bad that was only a cultural construct, one would have to conclude that it was only Peter’s view but nothing more.

            1) What they did happened regularly (“day after day”).
            2) Seeing their evil conduct was oppressive to, being surrounded by it day after day.
            3) It is hard to imagine God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah for a temporary culturally induced construct.
            4) If mere rape was sufficiently wicked, then Lot was no better than the men of Sodom, but the Apostle Peter called him “righteous” (2 Peter 2:7).

            Whatever God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah either happened before the angelic visitation or was sufficiently ongoing enough for God to pronounce judgment. The judgment was pronounced BEFORE the angelic visitation (Gen 18), and was exceedingly grave.

          • Umm… what? Wait… do you really believe all culture hold the same values? I don’t even know where to begin.

            Yeah… 2 Peter also drew on the part in Ezekiel 16.44-52, something you haven’t done.

            You really don’t get this, do you? I didn’t say rape was right. What I said was that you have to understand male rape in the social context. It was clearly considered wrong by God.

  89. This is fucking bull* you say that all marriages should be a man and woman and they’ll al be happy and gay people won’t. But most marriages end up in one of them cheating and half of marriages end in divorce. Also, I’m an atheist so try making a point that doesn’t involve Christianity. Homosexuality is not harmful to a family considering an actual study that you didn’t make up concluded that gay people made better parents. I’d say more about your crappy article but I couldn’t read it all it was so f*ing sh*y and narrow minded.

    • makes total sense – I mean, if you had read the articles I linked to at first, and the comments, you would see a big difference – and one made without resorting to vulgarity.

  90. I’m back I read the comments and got even more angry. YOU PEOPLE ARE DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You said that. A person is not a Christian because they aren’t a sick homophobe! That is gross!!!! This article is disgusting. Gay people will never die out. But old middle aged Texan white men who drink and hate the Chinese and Muslims will! They will die in an sandy hole wanking cause they’re wife ditches them and they’re too fat to pull a door open and you’ll just sit there praising your made up Jesus and wondering why the Republicans aren’t in power.

  91. I agree with this article completely. Homosexuality is immoral, unnatural, and a sin. Say what you want, public opinion can never change that.

      • Joel,
        Women voting and the racial make up of the presidency is not a moral issue. I am surprised that you would think that is any kind of substantive response.

          • I’m sorry. I have noticed that you post in ad hominem responses. Like “hater,” and “historically blind,” as if that suggests anything of substance. Would you like to try again? My “blindness,” which is merely your opinion fails to address the main issue.

            Race and gender are inherent characterisitics, completely unrelated to moral behavior. Race and gender or not parallels to homosexuality.

          • Larry, it is not ad hom to ask you a question about your POV.

            Race and gender were not always thought of as inherent characteristics, but as a sign of morality. And yes, historical treatment of race and gender mirror the current treatment of homosexuality.

            Do you know why black people are black? Because of Ham. Therefore, they deserve slavery <—- this is called the curse of ham. It is a theology still taught in fundie circles.

          • I is an ad hominem attack to call someone a “hater” merely because a person disagrees. And it is ad hominem to call someone “historically blind” because they do not see any parallel between race/gender and moral behavior.

            If people held/hold such views (vary rare to hear that nowadays), how does that answer the issue of whether or not homosexuality is sin? I am not aware that anyone has ever taught that being black or being a woman was inherently sinful–except Mormons up until the 1970s.

            While I disagree with what some fundamentalists have taught, I have never heard anyone teach that. Overgeneralizing some minority viewpoint is an invalid argument. And for someone who believes themselves to be logical, you tend say very little about the high ignorance of those who agree with you, including atheists. But you are eager to judge other Christians as “haters” merely because they have a strongly held view based upon the Bible.

          • It is a statement of fact you are peddling a theology of hate. It is a statement of fact you are blind to the parallels between homosexuals and the way others were treated in the name of God.

            Yes, you are unaware. You are unaware of history and of Scripture. Glad you admit that.

            The Curse of Ham is based on Scripture too. So is denying women service in the ministry. So is quiverfull. So is a host of various odds and ends in doctrine. Some of them are harmless, but some of them are downright destructive – such as the views on homosexuals.

          • You apparently cannot tell the difference between opinions and facts. It is merely your “opinion” that I am a “hater.” You are judging the contents of my heart by suggesting that I am motivated by hate.

            I attended a fundamental church for more than ten years. So don’t suggest that I don’t know what you are talking about. How you can overgeneralize to the extent you do surprises me immensely.

            It doesn’t matter what misunderstandings of scripture people had 50 or a hundred years ago. Race and gender have never been matters of morality. The Apostle Paul never considered them moral issues.

            Your labeling me as a “hater” shall fall on deaf ears because I recognize your tendency toward personal attacks. You never once attempted to consider what I was saying. You only attacked me personally.

          • Paul never considered homosexuality as a moral issue either.

            Now, you can say he doesn’t speak to those moral issues, but 100 years ago they believed he did. There are Calvinists today who believes he does. There are those who today believe Paul denied women equality in the home and the church.

            I don’t think you understand what your social context is, as is evident about your low information of actual historical issues.

            As far as understanding what you are saying, I gave you a chance. But you never presented a case beyond the ‘the bible says (to me)’ approach found so often among those who do not understand actual scholarship.

          • It doesn’t matter what people were “historically blind” about 100 years ago.

            When you started with the “hater” business, I knew that you were not listening. I asked you to explain Romans 1:26-27 and you never did. You insisted on some special knowledge of Greek that scholars better than you would not agree with.

            That tells me that Greek provides no special insight that cannot be gained from 2-3 good English translations. There are some things that Greek cannot do, no matter how much you insist upon it. I know people personally who know more Greek than you do and they would not agree with you.

            If you cannot explain it in English, then, as far as I am concerned, you have not argument.

            As long as you claim special insight into my heart, I know you aren’t listening. That is why I stopped posting.

          • Yes, it does matter, actually. It shows our sense of morality is progressing.

            I presented several previous writings. I answered your questions. I tried to help you understand the difference between words and sentences. You still fail at that. Look at you. You don’t understand rhetoric, and still confuse translations with meanings.

            English is not the final arbiter of what is true. Your statement here tells more about you than you’d realize.

            If it wasn’t so sad, it would be funny. But it truly is said.

  92. It really hurts guys that you actually think these rumors are true. I’ve been getting comments in my mail from Christians that homosexuality- that I am wrong. Nothing is wrong with me, absolutely NOTHING.

  93. The bible was badly translated. It was also heavily edited by men with their own agendas. It is wrong to refer to it as the true and whole teachings of Jesus. It speaks of male rape which is today still unlawful. Not consensual sex between same sex individuals. Male rape was translated as any sexual act between men. Jesus also spoke of eunochs made so in their mother’s womb. The word eunoch back then meant men who do no sleep with women. Not men with no testicles/genitalia. Jesus was more modern than many brainwashed individuals today even know. Our societies are evolving, finally, as Jesus intended. We’re growing up and realising that his teaching were manipulated as well as mistranslated. His true messages are coming through stronger than ever and this is why your numbers are diminishing and your false war lost. When you are enlightened to this you can finally feel the warmth of Jesus’ pride as you recognise you’ve been lied to all these years. The devil’s ultimate plan to fool you all with mistranslation and manipulative interpretation is failing. That’s all you are witnessing. Light is defeating the dark. Come into the true light of Jesus.

  94. This is literally the most retarded thing you could say. What you are saying is that just because of someones sexual orientation they will live shorter lives and be abusive to their children that’s complete bullshit

  95. I love the god argument, even believers (I am not one a believer), have to choose to listen to the Bible, why do they do it? because their parents did, So if being gay were a choice, then why do gay individuals still arise from religious families? their parents obviously were not gay and therefore have no influence on the child’s preferences. saying being gay is a choice is the essence of contradiction. Believing in god is not genetic and is taught, being gay so clearly is genetic and you prove it by saying choices are equivalent to taught behaviors. Also to all of the arguments against gay parental structure, who else is guaranteed to never have an abortion? how many people would adopt a child before conceiving their own? how many religious people blinded by the bible even consider adoption? you know, it might be something christ would do.

    • Actually, the religious gene is genetic and evolutionary. And another thing… I wouldn’t say people are blinded by the bible so much as interpretation

  96. Well many opinions here. The fact (in my opinion of course) is that no one’s opinions matters. God has outlawed homosexual acts and that is the beginning and the end. God is letting humans make their own choices in life. God has already appointed the day and time when he will appear to judge all of us for our sins, whether it be homosexuality, murder, incest, paedophilia, stealing, coveting etc. If people wish to abuse their own minds and bodies than so be it. I struggled with feeling I was gay when I was younger, due to people teasing me because I was not a promiscuous girl and did not have a boyfriend. It got so bad that I started to think maybe they were right. However, when I really thought about it, I realised I was not gay as the thought of having sex with another woman was awful to me. However young people now are being told left right and centre that its ok, and I think it is so easy for them to engage in such acts before they have really thought about what such a lifetsyle entails. I strongly believe that homosexuality is a mental disorder. Most gay people (the ones I have known) are very unhappy with their lives and have higher rates of depression. Also they claim they would not want to be gay, due to the way they are treated so if it is natural why say that? We live in a world now where homosexuality is increasingly embraced and accepted so their whole ‘I am scared of what people will think of me’ is a but outdated. I believe they are scared to face themselves what they have become and that they have allowed themselves to give into depravity. Abuse as a definition is to use something for an improper use, or to misuse etc. Its is clear that the human body is designed to procreate. Therefore homosexual sex is abnormal as it is abuse of one’s own body and genitalia. I remember one gay guy I knew who said he had homosexual feelings would was terrified of the idea of anal sex and was worried it would hurt. Deep down everyone knows this is abuse of the body (in my opinion).

    Unfortunately, due to developments in science and the fact that intercourse is no longer necessary for a child to be conceived we have conveniently forgot the laws of nature. Gays are now getting married and having children just like heterosexuals. Even this is the biggest irony of all; that those who claim there life is ‘normal’ go to such lengths to mirror and have all the trimmings of a heterosexual life. I feel sorry for these poor children growing up in these irregular family set ups, as it will only lead to further depravity. In the news, there are increasingly more and more reports of children displaying sexually aggressive and deviant behaviour. Our future is a mentally disturbed and sexually perverted generation with high levels of sexual abuse and depravity. How can inserting a penis into a poo-filled anus be sexy? If you step in dog-poo in the street you get annoyed so how people can think that is normal is beyond me. How can two vaginas serve one another? Why do lesbians use dildos? I could go on and on.

    But there is no point. God has spoken His Word on the matter and his word shall never be diminished. People often ridicule the idea of there being a God and say “where is your God?” However, what people forget is that this is God’s world and we are his people. We live in a universe that we don’t even fully understand and never will. Whether a person agrees with someone being gay is their personal choice. I personally think it is depraved and based on a misunderstanding of one’s own purpose in life and with God, but people are entitled to disagree. In the end it matters not, as (in my opinion) God exists and his existence is outside of our belief in him. Whether or not you believe in God has no bearing on whether or not he actually exists. I believe that people can overcome homosexuality if they are honest with themselves, and what homosexuality really is and where it originates from (Satan – rebellion). However, we are all adults and God has given us free will, so people have the freedom to make up their own mind.

  97. I don’t see any point in trying to argue with homophobes. They’re the most ignorant creatures to walk this planet. If they hate homosexuals for no apparent reason, so be it. They wouldn’t listen if God himself came down to Earth just to tell them that they’re wrong.

  98. I salute you!!
    Basically I don’t have to state my opinion cz you expressed them above. I agree with everything!!!!!!!!!!!

  99. Sorry, but I can’t take anyone whose opinion can be changed at the drop of a hat seriously. If you’re too weak to stand by your opinions then keep them to yourself. Don’t light a match and expect not to get heat.

    • So Rex, you expect everyone to remain with the same opinion? Hahhahahaha

      Sorry, but that is the cause of many of the issues we face today.

      Thanks for trying.

  100. I agree that intercourse between two same gender people is wrong simply and only because they cannot reproduce and I believe reproduction was Gods reason for creating man and women. I would like to know why some people think sex for pleasure is okay between heterosexuals. I think we should ask ourselves would God condemn sex between two same genders if they could anatomically reproduce.?

    • James, you are close the Catholic position, but should heterosexual couples be allowed to have sex for pleasure? The standard RCC position is that sex for pleasure is not the natural use – thus, all (hetero and homo) who have sex for pleasure are against God’s will.

  101. This is the most horrible thing I have ever read.
    Judging people because they like something different?

  102. Good post. I like it. Although I am not Christian, I agree with many Christian morals and teachings, being a Muslim and all.

  103. Sorry to tell you the truth but god is a myth.

    Also, I am a homosexual and I am a virgin. Nor have I molested any children. WHY should I be discriminated against?

    If everyone was a preist, there would be no humanity.

    Just because not everyone is gay doesn’t mean it’s not “natural.” Most people aren’t actors.

    Homosexuality is NOT a choice. For example, there is no gene for being left handed. It’s actually true that left handed people live shorter lives. So why don’t we call them an abomination? Sure, you could still CHOOSE to write with your right hand, but you are still left handed.

  104. Really? You think that being gay is a choice? Why would I , or anyone else, choose to make life 100x harder? It’s because of people like you that I have been beaten and berated for no reason. Sure, the bible says that it’s a a “sin”, but I doubt that you can say that you haven’t done ANYTHING wrong in your sorry life. Yes, marriage is between a man and a woman WHO ARE IN LOVE, but what makes love between two people of the same gender so different?
    It’s LOVE NO MATTER WHAT.a pretty large chunk of my classmates claim that my feelings towards my girlfriend aren’t genuine, BUT THEYRE WRONG. LOVE BETWEEN A TWO MEN OR WOMEN IS NO DIFFERENT FROM A HETEROSEXUAL RELATIONSHIP.
    I don’t care if I’ve made any errors, it’s 10:30 and I spent all day at the cesspool they call a middle school.

    • Kristen,

      the errors are made by those who miss your message and attack you.

      The bible says nothing about homosexuality, btw, so don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. If they do, they read it either with ignorance or with hate.

      Go. Love.

  105. This whole thing is laughable. Stop living your life based on out dated views. How dare this author speak from a platform of Christianity. They are the worst offenders. Homosexuality is wrong but priest molesting small boys, let’s look the other way.

  106. just to say homosexuality is not wrong and there is no such thing as god ****!

  107. Who are you to judge? How does the affairs of others affect you? It’s not YOUR relationship so why would you care? Also, you never know. You yourself may be bisexual. You just haven’t felt feelings for another male. Yet.

    I find people that constantly put down people for affairs that have no effect on them or anyone else should not have a right to do so.

    Also, where you did get these sources? These cough cough surveys sounds scewed. How does one even gather this research?

    So, I shall complete my rant with one last statement. It isn’t your business, people can choose who they love”

    Good day to you sir.

  108. God doesn’t exsist,being gay isn’t wrong any one who thinks so is an uneducated wonderfully delightful soul*

  109. About number 5. (Homosexuals have a shortened life span), did you mean gay or lesbian relationships?
    Number 6. (Homosexuals have a much higher incedence of domestic violence.) doesn’t make any sense.
    Number 14. (Homosexuality is not genetic.) is true but homosexuality isn’t supposed to come from genetics, it comes from likes and dislikes. Personal interests weren’t meant to be genetic and can’t really be changed.
    I really don’t know what to say to the last one but either way you’ve got great back up information for why homosexuality is wrong.
    I get that you don’t believe homosexuality is wrong anymore, I don’t too, but you seriously hold up a good argument.
    When I was reading through the comments I spotted one saying that the Bible said the Earth was flat, when did the Bible actually say that? That statement has been confusing me a while…
    I wish people would stop cussing in their comments.
    God bless. :)

    • Ancient Near East cosmology assumed the earth was flat. We see this in the story of the sun stopping in Joshua, Genesis 1, as well as Job’s creation account.

  110. Altually, a man’s G-Spot is located in the anus, why would god put that there if it was never ment to be dealt with? And what about the clit on a woman. Traditional sex doesn’t even touch on that, lesbian sex does.
    Why would god put that there?
    Please do feel free to answer. Im all ears.

  111. I have a question that I hope some can weigh in on: if I know a person who insists that they can no longer fight their urge to have sex with underage children, should I accept this person’s view that they were born this way? If God created them with this desire is it something I should discourage? If they find a young person who will live with them in secret because they know society will frown on their relationship should I back them up and show unconditional love? Should I allow them to be around my children? Or if I tell them I don’t think its right am I being intolerant, bigoted, narrow-minded or “pedophile-phobic? This is a sincere question because I really want to know what you think.

    • Essentially, we have to understand that consensual sex between two people who can give consent is what we are talking about. Pedophilia, like rape of all sorts, does not involve consent.

      People are born, say alcoholic, but we also know alcoholism is destructive to the individual and others. Do we indulge their pleasures or get them help?

  112. Hello, I am a young adult that matriculates into the school of Harvard University. For starters, I will bestow upon you information here and about me first, in that I ranked #1 in my class for high school, received a 4.8 gpa(4.0 scale), and scored 2400 on the SATs(Also, I was admitted into 6/8 ivy league schools). I know an abundance of information on this type of plight, due to the fact that I have helped people throughout this arguement successfully come to an agreement. Being Gay…. Is purely wrong. And while God does have a say in this, if we exclude him out for a moment, you still are left with assumptions and facts that can be made. Same sexual orientation is beyond a tragic to the world’s conception. In any case, it is almost a guranteed fact that if you were gay, or bi, you are stubborn in the sense that you would settle for an “unnatural” selection than a required one to create offspring. Also, if you were “smart”, (I provided quotation marks to be able to altercate what you say if you go against me.) you would have the intelligence of knowing that just because something makes you happy. doesn’t make it the “right” thing to do. It’s not about who says something is right or wrong, it’s about morally being true to yourself in a positive aspect. May we all get along in a way that gives us the ability to further support eachother, assuming you know I am talking about it in a more conventional way, and not heretical. You young folks and elders need to make a decision soon, and that decision is to either; be true to one’s self for that he may influence those around him in a positive conventional “god-wanted” outlook, or to be “heretical” and or erroneous in addition to the fact that he/she knows what they are doing is not pleasing in response to their conclusive action(godly unwanted). “Everything” is about sex now in our generation. A girl with beauty will never beat a “grotesque”(ugly woman) with big buttocks in wanting a particular guy in today’s society, because people love women for their butts now. Dildos are being placed in stores commonly, and outdoor sex is becoming popular(From where I lived). Understand that the “wrong” things – Not being true to yourself, are being accepted because people are finding more ways to build excuses upon doing what’s “right.” People don’t do good in school now a days because they feel like rappers(using one example) make it without education, so why should they? (My response) “Because the richest man in the world is all about education.” We are all in a century where judging is necessary in order to maintain the balance of good and bad. For short, being gay is wrong due to the fact that it is “unnatural”, and destroys your purpose for truly being a male or female in a sexual countenance. If ever to argue with a gay, excuses will be produced such as misleading scientific facts, or being born like this. And last thing. People say “god made me this way.” Pardon me, but God made you from your initial facet(aspect), not nurture you from who you are today. You made yourself, the way you are, whether it be “good” or “bad.” Oh, say no to drugs kids. If we can only prevent them from making an excuse, that’ll be great! – Formulating my lecture into a joke (To further ease the agitated people who dissend this message)
    #Imnocomedian . Thank you for reading

    • First of all, using god as an excuse to hate homosexuality is not legitimate. First, there isn’t solid evidence that god exists. You may say that there is no evidence of a gay gene. You’re right. However, there is no evidence for a straight gene either. Additionally, science has been finding that epigenetics might be what chooses someone’s sexual orientation. Epigenetics dictate how genes are expressed. Secondly, did you know, the bible says haircuts, tattoos, and divorce are sins?

      Also take a look at this: “A man whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord.”-Deuteronomy 23:1

      We don’t listen to these things in the bible, so why not stop listening to the passages condemning homosexuality?

      There is nothing wrong with homosexuality because it doesn’t hurt yourself or others. Sure, I myself am gay and I had a relationship that ended badly. But many heterosexual couples can have bad relationships too. Currently, I’m dating this guy and he is amazing. We always tell each other that we love one another. I am happy, he’s happy, my family is happy, my friends are happy… so what’s wrong with it?

      And if you think that homosexuality is wrong because of STD’s then heterosexuality is wrong too because anyone can get an STD. As long as both partners are tested (whether you’re a gay or a straight couple) you’ll be fine. (This ideology isn’t right: “oh I’m going to have straight sex! I don’t have to worry about STD’s!”)

      You may think it’s gross. Well, of course you do! However, just because YOU don’t like it doesn’t mean everyone else should think the same way. How does my gay relationship affect YOU?

      In my opinion, being gay is a gift. Why you may ask? Everyone is different in their own special way and homosexuality promotes equality for all. Also, our planet is getting very overpopulated. We need less people having babies so that we can survive. Lastly, there are children that need to be adopted. Why not have gay couples adopt?

      All in all, if you open your heart and understand that there are different forms of love. You have to understand that gay people who are suppressed are more likely to kill themselves. How do we fix this? Don’t suppress them… let there be equality. This goes for not just the LGBT but for everyone of all minorities!

      Thank you for reading.

      • Jack, a gift is what’s given to you, such as life and or an object that you can further use to do x, y, and z. Being gay isn’t a gift, because it is a decision that you can make on a whim or yourself. Your interpretation and analogy on things are unaccurate as far as your explanation goes. And like I stated in which I can tell you did not comprehend what I said successfully. I claim, “Just because something makes you happy, doesn’t make it right…” You should learn to not speak out your mind unless you are able to write a paragraph in which cannot be argued in any case. It’s not that I think I’m right, but the way I worded my sentences give way on my arguement. And homosexuality DOES hurt others(You contradicted yourself completely when you stated that, because there were no specifications in that “broad” statement), in the sense that it hurts our population from increasing and etc. Your explanation further shows that you did not take the time to grasp all the information stated in this article. You are just any other person speaking their mind without a full validation towards this debate. Read first, then speak your mind.

        • Arguing with someone at Harvard University. I admit, you have guts kid(assuming you are a kid because of how much of my text you comprehended.) You won’t and will not argue against what I said because I specified every little key pointer that there is to be rather “pointed.” You just can’t argue with me, no matter how much you try. I even presented my text to the nation’s top reading analysis located in Boston. I can have you disordered and use words you have not yet seen in your entire life to further confuse your aspect even more. I’m giving you a little leeway for now, but if ever to argue, I will definitely respond in the sense that you have no business in even reading this text. Respond please, I want to hear what you have to say. I’m actually titillated to see what you will enunciate next. Do so, or stay in sync with this text of cognition. Thank you for “comprehending” (Assuming you can)

          • I may be young. (I’m 16 years old) I’m still trying to figure out how the world works. I’m not the smartest. I make many mistakes. But I have a heart along with a voice.

            Just because of you’re high gpa and your attendance at the university of Harvard doesn’t mean you’re right. You may have a lot knowledge, sure, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay for you to bash homosexuality.

            You talk about natural selection and god. Last time I checked, they contradict each other. All I needed to know this was to finish a High school biology class.

            It seems like you think homosexuality is a mistake in nature because it does not help propagate. But in my opinion, life is more than about pumping out more babies in the world. It’s about the quality of your life and everyone else’s.

        • I guess if being a Christian makes people happy, then that’s wrong too. Just because something makes you happy, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It just depends on the thing you’re talking about. Btw, a gift is something you were given. And being gay is something that was given to me when I was born by nature.

          Also, you didn’t even say WHY being gay hurts society except for one thing: the population cannot increase. You obviously know nothing about overpopulation. So what if about 2-5% of our population won’t reproduce. Nothing is going to change much. There are many straight couples who don’t have kids. So by your standards, straight couples whom can’t have/don’t want kids are considered immoral as well.

        • I’m sorry if this is my second post. My phone blacked out so I’m posting again just to be sure.

          I guess if being a Christian makes people happy, then that’s wrong too. Just because something makes you happy, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It just depends on the thing you’re talking about. Btw, a gift is something you were given. And being gay is something that was given to me when I was born by nature.

          Also, you didn’t even say WHY being gay hurts society except for one thing: the population cannot increase. You obviously know nothing about overpopulation. So what if about 2-5% of our population won’t reproduce. Nothing is going to change much. There are many straight couples who don’t have kids. So by your standards, straight couples whom can’t have/don’t want kids are considered immoral as well.

        • Jim,

          I would question the Harvard bit by simply examining your writing. Further, even going to Harvard doesn’t mean you are right. It just means you paid a lot of money to still be wrong.

      • All of you state assumptions, but no where do I see facts. Please continue though. Am I not right that I called the kid a “kid” and was proven a fact, based off scrutinizing his efforts of comprehending? Step back and read for god’s sake. I analyze and further examine everything everyone says in this chat, but please watch yourself. Joel L. Watts, you sound very trivial. You stated,”Further, even going to Harvard doesn’t mean you are right.”…. Which FURTHER displays that you DID NOT read my text. Because I stated clearly, ” It’s not that I think I’m right, but the way I worded my sentences give way on my arguement” Press the ctrl button and the key letter F at the same time and input my sentence in the text box. You clearly see I said that. Read people READ! i’m done talking for the simple fact that I’m talking to a bunch of people who don’t understand how imperative reading is. And stephen, you sound just as kiddish as the 16 year old boy. I never said that it make’s my opinions more important, and actually, to a certain degree, my achievements show that I put effort and time in to what I do. Like reading this whole page and summarizing it in one paragraph, while people like you sit here and state assumptions in which are irrelevant to this converstation. Such as, “I love how you state all of your academic achievements, as if that makes your opinion more important.” NOW that’s fact – The fact that your comment was irrelevant to this conversation was fact! And one last thing Joel, going to Harvard doesn’t mean that I’m rich. You define someone’s financial needs based on what college they go too? Alright kid, I’m done, click this link and read (Assuming you probably won’t). https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid – You guys are jokes. I don’t need my writing skills to teach you more, or how to get my point across. I would like to have this discussion with “people who know what they are talking about and can produce facts.” Not one kid in here has proven me wrong. – There’s another fact.

        • “Jim” – you have this connection to “Harvard” that you feel you need to state, repeatedly, in order to prove you are correct.

          You have no academic achievements, no tact, and nothing to contribute except for your need to feel important.

        • And Joel? I don’t go to Harvard? I don’t even want to prove that false accusation wrong because it further “betters” my argument on saying that all you have stated are “Assumptions.” See how I play with your foolish arguments to make mine better? It’s called writing argumentative essays. https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/685/05/ – This link will teach you how to write them, and in addition will give you an idea. But I believe you won’t read these because you think I’m joking around. I’m being completely honest, you need to read this article. And I love how you define my college based off how I’m writing in a forum! Joel use common sense this time. You understand this is a forum right? I’m 21 in college period. I don’t need to write to you “kids” in a way that makes me look smarter. I already do look smarter because no one has been able to prove me wrong on anything I said in this article. Anyone who shows effort can argue with me, but you guys aren’t even reading nor comprehending. I don;t even need to be in Harvard to do this. I’m in Harvard because I read every single thing on this page! EVERYTHING. And in addition to that, I comprehended it. None of you people arguing with me have read everything on this page. That just shows that you don’t appreciate EVERYONE in here’s feelings on this topic. But I, after reading this whole page have took in consideration to read everyone’s point of view, and demonstrated mine after comprehending there’s. That’s why I’m in Harvard. How about your college, or high school, or elementary school? Me and my dorm roommates are laughing hysterically because this is a joke now. I’m teaching you guys how to argue when you should be ready and prepared to do so when coming into this forum. Stephen, did I not state facts. Joel, I proved you wrong so much, I came in with links for you, and Jack, I do not want to further test your mind, for that you are 16, and (not that you aren’t smart) I just think you should really take in consideration that I am right for that I even based you being a kid off of your comprehension skills. Am I not fit for Harvard? I tell you not, I’ve given you all a reason to my success, and whether or not you believe me, I’ve shown you my abilities in a funny, serious, and enjoyable way. That’s what makes me a Harvard Undergrad.

          • To be honest, I think you should give up. I have stated many reasons why I think homosexuality is not wrong. However, because you don’t know how to counter them, you just keep talking on about all of this Harvard bullshit. You’re just upset that we’re winning. I have countered your argument about how homosexuality is “unnatural.” Why haven’t you tried countering my arguments? Hmm….

          • Everyone, Joel L. Watts states, “You have no academic achievements, no tact, and nothing to contribute except for your need to feel important.” This is an assumption because he says I have no academic success, but doesn’t even know me. No tact? I’ve read everyone’s essay carefully, thank you for that assumption. And to feel important? I think that statement contradicts itself because everyone wants to be important in some way, shape, or form. THAT’S how you prove someone wrong. And back to Jack’s response about population. He states, “Also, you didn’t even say WHY being gay hurts society except for one thing: the population cannot increase. You obviously know nothing about overpopulation. So what if about 2-5% of our population won’t reproduce. Nothing is going to change much. There are many straight couples who don’t have kids.” That was a point I made to synthesize what I was actually trying to say. HE ALSO STATES, BE MINDFUL PEOPLE, “And being gay is something that was given to me when I was born by nature.”… Being gay is a decision, that you make on your own. No one gave you the choice on being gay. FACT! You said I didn’t even say why being gay hurts society except… Bro.. you contradicted yourself tremendously. You said except being I did explain why being gay hurts society. Also, you claim “what if about 2-5% of our population won’t produce.” KEYWORDS: “What If”, thus, another assumption. FACT! Child’s play, That Idol logic. I’m done you guys, argue with yourselves.

          • Jack, you are very funny man. I love this kid. I hope you read back to this article and realize what I said to be truthful and scintillating. If you showed this to your friends or anyone else, I promise you , you do not sound any smarter than what you are writing now. My friends(Harvard Undergrads.) are sitting here laughing at you, and I find that uneasy to me, but I tell you, think first, then type. You’ll make a great writer one day. Keep it up though, and I hope I from Harvard have taught you the ways of arguing efficiently. I’m leaving now, I don’t want to prove you guys wrong anymore. It’s making me feel bad. Keep running Jack, but like I stated, “It’s not about who says something is right or wrong, it’s about morally being true to yourself in a positive aspect.”… Never did I say I was right Jack, in the sense of this arguement. I said I was right for proving you wrong on the things you came forth with me at, Keep Reading Bro. Just Keep Reading. I’m off now, may you come across another Harvard Undergraduate, who might not be so lineate with you the next time.

          • Homosexual people can choose not to have gay relations. But on the inside, they are still… gay. For me to try to date a woman is like a straight guy trying to date a man. Now that’s unnatural! People should be with whom they love, not what the majority thinks is love.

            People who suppress their sexual orientation are much more likely to kill themselves. Take a look at this statistic from the Dr. Phill show: “Gay children have a 9 times higher rate of suicide when alienated or rejected by family.” Now that’s a fact!

            You’re so worried about the population not being able to increase.
            Here’s an article about overpopulation: http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/09/25/overpopulation.overview/index.html?eref=rss_tech

          • Jack, Dr. Phil is accurate, ashamedly. We also know transgender children suffer more than even gay children.

    • Jim,

      I’ve read your response a few times before replying here. I’ve also read your further responses and I have formulated my thoughts on these which I want to share.

      The reason people are having a hard time in “digesting” your initial response is because you really make yourself sound like an arrogant and pompous individual in the way you have articulated yourself. You make an argument in your later responses that you have laid out facts and no one has actually debunked those.. well your arguments are really frugal to begin with. Here are my counter arguments to yours:

      Homosexuality is unnatural:

      I’d like to know where you get this “fact” from. Because really and truly, natural and unnatural is very subjective to each individual. In the animal kingdom (and yes we are all animals) there has been homosexual “behaviour”, relationships etc in what 420 species when I last read about this. It is completely natural to them, what IS Unnatural, is the homophobic opinions, fears, and lack of tolerance that we as humans have.

      To further this, I will add that just as natural as it is for YOU to be straight, is as natural for a homosexual to be gay. When did you CHOOSE to be straight? The specific time, day, moment etc please.

      Its our purpose as humans to procreate:

      Ahhh… sorry, this one made me laugh. You do realize that there are many, many men and women in this world who are not able to procreate or wish to have children? Also, if the sole purpose of relationships, and sex is to procreate, then why does it feel so darn good to the point that we do not limit ourselves to sexual encounters purely to procreate? Dolphins for example are the same, they don’t just have sex to procreate, they do it for pleasure.. just as humans do.

      Also, have you seen, read about, or heard how many orphaned, abandoned, abused children there are in the world? Have you read up on how the population as it stands is depleting the natural resources we have left due to our selfish, and irresponsible ways of being with mother nature? I would like to know your facts about the impact homosexual couples have on the population as a whole?

      The Unmoral World:

      Jim, there are have been atrocities that have been happening around the world for centuries, actually since the beginning of time. Rape, murder, hunger, corruption etc… What two people decide to do with their bodies together, is really their own business. In terms, of a woman beating another for the sake of attaining a man… well that’s been around for ages. And that has nothing to do with morals, rather than the lack of respect one has for themselves. The development of a woman’s confidence, security etc has throughout history been attached to the approval and acceptance of men. This argument that you have made is not related to the issue about homosexuality, so I won’t go into it further, but if you would like to continue this part of the conversation, I’m game.

      Untrue to God:

      First and foremost, God taught us all about love, acceptance, compassion, and tolerance. There have been a lot of things that have been misinterpreted in the Bible over the years. And when a homosexual person says that they were born this way, and God made them who they are, its not a “wrong” feeling as you put it. And I liken this to you saying your straight. You were born this way, and God made you this way. If you look within a box and keep going round in circles within that box, you limit yourself to the wonders of this world. God didn’t make a single dimensional world you know. If perhaps, you took even the smallest thing and marveled at how beautiful the creation itself is, the intrinsic design, the individual thought, and manner in which it was created and then expanded that into thinking about how humans were created and how different and beautiful we are all individually and collectively, I would most certainly guarantee that your perception of the world would change.

      Its really really sad, when people such as yourself, choose to take what was given to us and put judgments, anger, ignorance and contort it into something that makes you comfortable because you don’t understand. What is lacking in your arguments Jim, is a lack of self awareness that no amount of education, or degrees, or age can necessarily bring you. Its great that you have achieved a lot in your lifetime, and God bless you for your hard work, and focus to achieve all that you can. I do hope and pray though, that along your life’s journey you are able to avail the opportunities to grow your self awareness and compassion because sadly, you lack these.

      • EVERYONE: Holly states “Homosexuality is unnatural:” and continues with “I’d like to know where you get this “fact” from. Because really and truly, natural and unnatural is very subjective to each individual” – I state, “For short, being gay is wrong due to the fact that it is “unnatural”, and destroys your purpose for truly being a male or female in a sexual countenance” SAT TIME! Me saying “and” in the sentence further bestows upon the sentence a new way of expressing itself. Yes, it is unnatural due to the fact that it (Like I stated) “destroys your purpose for truly being a male or female in a sexual countenance” FACT! Choosing to be straight is a part of natural sexual countenance! FACT! You need male and female gametes to produce in sexual reproduction terms. (Natural!) Holly then adds on, ” Dolphins for example are the same, they don’t just have sex to procreate, they do it for pleasure.. just as humans do.” I’m not making this a joke, but click this link for further explanation. http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/dolphin-brains-compare-human-brains – Holly, we are humans that further know OUR rights and wrongs, in being that you are a human too. (No assumption there) We mistake our feelings and care for one another as love. What does the term “friendship” mean when two boys are close with each other, and really care about each other because they are friends. But then mistake it for love because they now sexually want each other. That is utterly ridiculous(in the sense of how many may view it). Secondly, she states, “Its really really sad, when people such as yourself, choose to take what was given to us and put judgments, anger, ignorance and contort it into something that makes you comfortable because you don’t understand.”… Our minds are programmed to judge people. Come On Holly! You are not going to talk to a hobo on the street like you would to the president of the united states, or act the way you normally with your teacher as you would with a subsitute. (OR in any other example that can be produced upon what I said) FACT! Finally, she states, “I do hope and pray though, that along your life’s journey you are able to avail the opportunities to grow your self awareness and compassion because sadly, you lack these.” – I lack awareness when I further gave Jack my appreciation that he stood up to me(being aware meaning that I can see his efforts on trying to argue with me), and that I lack compassion when I gave Jack, A kid I argued with, a saying to keep running and don’t stop. I state “Keep running Jack,” – FACT! Holly, you did great and an amazing job with getting your point across, but I’m leaving ok.

        • AND JACK, STOP BRO PLEASE, I BEG OF YOU! HE STATES THIS, “Take a look at this statistic from the Dr. Phill show: “Gay children have a 9 times higher rate of suicide when alienated or rejected by family.” Now that’s a fact!” HE CLEARLY SAID, take a look at this STATISTIC! Meaning PROBABILITY, WHICH MEANS – - – - – - – ASSUMPTIONS! People. That is not fact my dear friend. That is an assumption that can happen in highly likely terms. Thanks everybody. Enjoyed your time here. Oh, look closely at everyone getting on me a little bit. Look at each and everyone of your essays. You all are basically disagreeing with each other, based upon how you view this topic. While I, remain in sync with my ideology. See everyone later. #GoCrimson

          • IIf people are in love with each other and it doesn’t affect anyone else, what’s wrong with it? Why do you care?

            You countered my statistic. Sorry that I said it was fact, but whatever. I made a mistake with a choice of words. Now homosexuality is wrong because I made a mistake? Hate against homosexuals IS wrong and hurts others. You didn’t even counter my other statement of how homosexuality isn’t a problem when we are dealing with overpopulation.

          • Also, me saying there is nothing wrong with homosexuality is an opinion. But you know what? Saying homosexuality is wrong is an opinion too.

          • WOW! This guy Jim Tailor is amazing! Listen, I was a gay kid who was looking for answers on trying not to be gay, but I think he has given me the push I’ve needed to not be gay anymore. I think being straight is according to his lecture, the right thing to do. THANK you so much mr. Tailor. And my dream school is Dartmouth, But HEY I can see why you go to Harvard bro! You have influenced me in ways I cant even speak on. No one has yet been able to prove what you have said to be wrong, and I admire a guy who can back up what he says and prove everyone’s point wrong. You are awesome Jim and I HOPE YOU GO FAR BRO! I’ll be cheering for you on man! No one has proved you wrong in this whole chat, and you proved Holly’s point like it was nothing! AND SHE DID AN AWESOME JOB OF PRESENTING HERSELF!!!!! Jim, please respond to me if you can get the chance, Im like your biggest fan bro. You’re epic! I have to show this to someone

          • Jim, er, David, er, Jim…

            everyone, Jim is actually David who is actually Jim who is a troll, a liar, and a man with little on his hands.

          • He’s funny, cool and awesome! and hella smart. He at least brings a sense of humor in to the argument so that you guys can laugh, but all you shitheads do is look at your point of view. He really does care and I can see it by him quoting you guys on everything you guys say. A lack of compassion shows that he wouldnt read your responses. You guys are proving him right everytime you speak. “Jim Tailor man, this guy is the future to the best out there. His remarks are crazy good

        • Everything you think about homosexuality is opinion- FACT! Honestly, if you’re not gay, how do you know if they choose to be homosexual? I didn’t ‘choose’ in any way to be gay. Saying homosexuals choose to be that way is an assumption, because in reality, you have no proof to support that. If you don’t want to believe every homosexual on the planet when they say they had no choice, then so be it. It’s all about opinion.

          There really are no facts to argue about here. If you believe it’s wrong, then OK. I’m not going to waste my time trying to sway the opinion of a supercilious bigot like yourself.

        • Jim,

          You are welcome to come and go as you please, its not my intention to hold you back rather to put my points across in the hopes to bring a different perspective to your own.

          Firstly, my comment about homosexuality was to raise your argument, not say that this is my opinion. I was putting it in bullet form but for some reason as I posted my reply, the numbers didn’t come up.

          I reiterate that the “opinion” of natural versus “unnatural” is subject to perspective and opinion, largely gathered from upbringing, social cues and environment as a whole. I have grown up in a different culture to yours so my perspective on life is different to yours. It doesn’t make either of us right or wrong, just different. Obviously, to you, a gay relationship is unnatural because your straight and that goes the same for a gay person- a straight relationship is unnatural to them. The traditions, cultural values are different across the globe and in these tie the natural and unnatural behaviors that we all perceive. In India, it is natural to respect and hold high regard for hermaphrodites, cross dressers etc because it is believed that a goddess is coming through to them spiritually. In Greek history, homosexual actions were considered natural and normal and throughout history, there is history and record of various sects finding homosexuality natural.

          In terms of sexual reproduction, again, this is subject to perception and opinion. My opinion is that life is not just down to sexual reproduction and that is backed up by facts of people leading fulfilling and happy lives regardless of a child present in their life or not. Humans have 3 layers to their brains, making them different to other animals; however, that does not make us better than other animals. They have their own instinctual and social cues for right and wrong behaviors i.e. carnivores hunt to survive, humans kill animals for the pleasure of their taste buds, and some for fun. Does this make us better than animals? And this is the turning point for me, the state of the things going on in this world, is the perception that we are better than others. That is just our ego taking over and is not a productive way to live, and the fact of my opinion here is wars, corruption, greed, hatred etc.

          What impact ones love for another person, what they do in their personal lives in terms of homosexuality have on the human race as a whole?

          You didn’t answer my question about when did you CHOOSE to be straight? And your above comment about people choosing to be straight having to do with conforming to sexual reproduction is a statement used by closeted homosexuals. People DON’T CHOOSE to be straight, or gay. They just are. What people do choose is whether they are true to themselves or hide in a closet because of their own fears.

          Your “awareness” to Jack standing up to you and “compassion” for him being a “kid” is actually your ego at play. You have not shown Jack any respect or compassion, rather your comments have been belittling, and arrogant. If you had awareness of your behavior, you would be able to see this. However, as an objective person looking in, I see Jack trying to reason with you and question something he doesn’t understand about your thought process in a RESPECTFUL way. You are pegged on his age, his grammar. You have portrayed yourself with superiority due to your education and your perceived vast knowledge and if your getting heat on this thread, it is solely because of this, and not your stance on this issue.

          Given that Jack is likely quite a bit younger than you, he has shown more maturity, open-mindedness and tact that you have been able to display. This is not a dig at you, but feedback on what I’ve seen should you be open to receive it. My intention is not to “convert” your thinking, or make you pro gay, rather, my intention is to drop a few seeds from another perception in a bid to get you to think a little bit. Underneath all this, you probably are a great guy; I think you just do yourself a disservice by locking your mind away and being defensive and judgmental. Oh and about judgments, yes we all make judgments, but what shows us we have evolved as humans is when we use those judgments for self growth and awareness as well as to survive. Would I talk differently to different people in my life, sure. But that is based on boundaries, and limitations to relationships with different people, not on my judgement of who is worthy or up to “par” with my way of thinking. I have no problem challenging the views of my “superiors” and have done this many times when their actions have not been made with compassion, awareness and thought from different angles.

          Should you choose to reply, it would be a pleasure to continue this conversation (and for the record, I say that as I really enjoy conversations such as these). However, if you choose to move away from this thread or my comment then I wish you the best on your journey and I hope either in this lifetime or another, your grow as the beautiful spirit that your meant to be :)

          Take care,

          Holly

  113. hey, honestly one of the biggest things about stuff like this that people don’t get is that, yeah it is from the bible, and so are a bunch of other things as well. It’s like they are picking apart what they like and what they don’t like. I don’t see posts of people bashing the entire community for people eating pork, and wearing cotton clothes, and heavens sake, thank god we are progressing out of telling women they don’t have rights. the bible has a lot of other crazy rules that people ignore. They are hypocrites! Why is it so hard for people to just accept it!!!

  114. Silly fools , there are 7.714 billion humans on earth at this time of writing , if some people choose to be heterosexual and reproduce then that’s their choice and if some people choose to be homosexual and have children in other ways (this may be biologically possible due to advances in science , “stem cells” , ring a bell anyone?) anyway.. then its their choice! no-one has to right to interfere!! . If we were living in cavemen times where reproduction was essential to continue to earths population then I can see why homosexuality maybe wrong BUT CMOOON! It’s 2014 , social attitudes have changed and we live in quite technologically and scientifically advanced times and I don’t care if homosexuality is a choice or not a choice , sex is sex and if you prefer it with your own gender and its practiced safely then whats the worst than can happen?

    We have far more serious issues to be concerned about! and religion (http://www.futuretimeline.net/21stcentury/2090-2099.htm#religion) will naturally fade , its part of human evolution , just compare how religious we are compared to our ancestors and what will happen by 2090 . Moral of the story , if your against homosexuals , you are more likely also to be racist , fascist and judgmental on many levels . NOWADAYS for progression/evolution , attitudes need to change! not your sexual orientation.

  115. Pingback Why Gay Marriage is Wrong - Empty Closets - A safe online community for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people coming out
  116. Everybody just stop being so mean there is nothing wrong with being gay.

    To all Christians, God is about love, acceptance and tolerance how do you think god feels when you diss, shun or disrespect someone he created. No god doesn’t create people gay he creates them with free will and if they decide to be Gay/Lesbian then so be it, treat them and respect them just like you would anyone else because blindly stating facts and not showing mercy or sympathy towards others is not being a good christian it makes you cruel and ignorant and if you absolutely MUST hate gays then show respect you don’t have to destroy every homosexual you see just because you think it’s weird because even though they cannot reproduce they are still happy with their lifestyle and I’m pretty sure it stated in the bible many times that god wants his children to be happy and enjoy themselves.

    Besides, just because you can’t make babies doesn’t mean it’s wrong. I view homosexuality as a sensual thing if you have a really close friend and you wanna take an extra step towards being closer then that’s homosexuality the same goes for if you really like someone of the same gender. Being gay doesn’t necessarily suggest anything sexual it’s plain and simply a strong attraction to the same sex. No, not all gays a rapists, pedophiles and child molesters I know a lot of gay people who would never think of raping a child or touching them inappropriately. How would you feel if someone said that all blacks are gang bangers and thugs, that all whites are racist and should go to hell, that all Muslims and Islams were terrorists and should be immediately jailed. that all native americans are problem gamblers or that all women are weak and worthless. Not so good right? And the thing is at some point in time a lot of people had that opinion so why would you turn around and torment others the same way people tormented you? It’s just not right. and the same goes for transsexuals.

    What I stated above was a mature well thought out and respectful opinion that’s coming from a black Pansexual 12 year old male from Illinois. Everything applies not just to Christians but to all people and if you can’t see the logic in that statement then I have nothing else to say.

    This is what is wrong with the world, everybody wants to prove everybody else wrong and tell them that they should be exactly like them. Nobody wants diversity or self expression when the answer to our problems is to unite and realize what it means to be true americans and except everybody for who they are, not judge them based on some books that were written by man and have undergone countless revisions since the beginning of time.

      • Actually now that I’ve gotten a chance to think about it it really isn’t a choice. Thanks now I have another thing to tell people!

        Okay so this is a tricky one sometimes being gay is a choice and most of the time it’s just a part of someones innate personality or even genetics.

        A Choice
        Okay this one should be pretty short. Some people just choose to be gay. Maybe they just wanna see what it’s like and wind up enjoying it. This is called self discovery although these people tend to be bisexuals.

        Innate Personality/Genetic
        Okay so generally there are two types of gay. Theres the one where you act the opposite of your respective gender and the one where you are attracted to your own gender. As far as the first one some people are homosexuals due to an imbalance of chromosomes. This is an example of twins not splitting completely but instead of being physically effected the child is effected with an imbalance of chromosomes. So while a child is born male he still possesses more female Chromosomes from his mother than his father so as a result he may act in an extremely feminine manner (Rolling his eyes, Flipping his wrist, Speaking with a drawl or a lisp etc…) despit being male. Likewise the same may happen with the second type of being gay where instead of acting feminine he deals with a powerful lust towards his own gender. In some cases gay children and adults who are male behave in a masculine way but still deal with attraction towards other males and the same goes for females but y’know vice versa.

        Thanks for pointing that out! I probably wouldn’t have caught it if you didn’t

        ~ The same anon

  117. Well, since you make such well reasoned and founded arguments, I and just amazed.

    Really, though, Alex, what proof do you have of any of this, or that God exists at all?

  118. alex, i agree with you. Polycarp, you seem to have no reason to back up why this is untrue. It seems alex has just as much proof to prove whether God exists as you do to whether the bible is directly from God. Also, seems you are very quick to put down homosexuality, but forget to follow other things the bible is teaching. Jesus taught us not to judge anyone. It is not your place to tell people how to live their lives or preach to them that they are wrong. You are putting down people with your words. I think you should stop focusing so much on homosexuality, and maybe a little bit more on being kind and accepting to people, even if they don’t make the same choices you would. That is the real Christian thing to do.

  119. Madeleine, you may belief as you wish, but you are only acting in your pride and selfishness. Stop worshiping yourself and turn to God.

  120. McGuire, why would I waste my time in responding to her when,

    1.) Others have made the same points that I would make
    2.) We have different starting points.

    If you cannot see past your lusts and desires to God, then you are surrendering yourself to those lusts. Pretty clear, McGuire. Racism is an evil that is still upon the earth, McGuire, with no biblical proof for it, unless you twist it.

    It is in your ignorance that you fail to see anything else but your hatred for morality. Who is talking about ‘cutting peoples RIGHTS down?’ I am a proponent of a separation of Church and State, thus do as you wish. I am not your judge – God is, whether you agree or not.

  121. McGuire,

    We were talking about Madeline who declared herself a bisexual, thus she acknowledged that she had given into her desires, thus the comment about her – this is important now, her not you – concerning worshiping oneself. You sound more like the homophobe, McGuire, with your out and loud, insistent even, defense of your ‘heterosexuality.’

    I never said about anything about you not seeing God, although the Bible does say that if our gospel is hid, it is hid to those that are lost. Seems like you are putting things in my mouth, McGuire.

  122. Madeleine, McGuire really needs to develop reading comprehension. Please read my response to him concerning exactly who I was devoting the lusts comment to.

  123. Hermes, I do believe that homosexuals among a whole host of other people who sin are indeed sinners. Yes, God loves everyone, for this He sent His Son to die – but we have to repent and leave the sin behind. That is not hate, Hermes, but Scriptural.

    How is it that your ignorance leads you to immediately qualify your sin with race? Race is not a choice and there is nothing biblical about separation of race or hatred based on race. I hope that you have better reading skills than that, Hermes.

    Fact is, there is plenty of biblical support for homosexuality being considered a sin by God and His Church, and a sin requires repentance. Hermes, for some reprobates prayers cannot help.

  124. P.S. – I have more than just this post concerning homosexuality. Do some more homework, um, guys I guess. Seriously though, I appreciate the hits from the message board.

  125. Madeleine, you’ll have to excuse me if I check the stats and see that a majority of the hits of this post is coming from a message board. Defense is fine, and encouraged, but this is hardly a ‘glad you were watching’ night.

    Have you guys ever thought that we are doing these things because we desire to see no human in the fires of hell? Tell me, would you limit our speech and thoughts on this matter?

  126. And dear friends, you will note – if you do your homework – that I am against prop 8, questionable on gay adoption, and in favor of a separation of church state. If you think that I let my religious views shape my political views on this subject, you are wrong. Homosexuality – and abortion – are not the only sins mentioned in the bible. There are others – and I have devoted much more time to those than I have to homosexuality. If my view offend you, then perhaps you should question yourself in this – if you were truly happy with yourself, then you would care less what others thought.

  127. Tammy, you are indeed right. If you notice the comments, you will see that Madeleine left her first comment some time ago and due to a recent posting of this article on some box widget it seems that she brought friends. The more the merrier.

  128. Wb,

    You have my made my feeble attempts seem rather, well, feeble. Thank you for the great words and I hope – and it seems that they are – people will see them.

  129. I believe that you answered your own statement – ‘it is thought.’ http://www.drtraycehansen.com/Pages/writings_legalizing.html

    Who is calling mentally handicap people mistakes? Don’t you think that that is a bit of a stretch, Eric.

    Your first problem, besides our imagination, is that you do not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. It is without error. You would know your answer to the pork question if you had read the bible. Further, there are 363 admonishments to sex – not just homosexual or heterosexual. The admonishments were to an inappropriate use of the human body.

    You realize that there is a difference between the Law and Grace, right? You might say that there is an entire book written about the matter – try Romans.

    Your arguments are flawed and filled with ignorant folly, making generalized statements with no background – regurgitating what you have heard instead of forming with your own mind those things needed to prove the ability of the human to decide for him or herself what is good and what is evil.

    Really, Eric, you should know better.

  130. Some ‘science’ has proved that it is natural for a man to have more than one partner, yet would people really have us do away with marriage and commitment to engage in ‘natural urges’?

  131. Actually, God condemned polygamy, as he has homosexuality. Who cares about customs? Cannibalism is custom in some tribes. Care to practice that? I am saying what is taught and long held by the Church, what is clear in the Bible, Eric. Actually, Eric, I do know the original languages, and I can read the bible in them.

    What research beyond your thoughts have your presented? You said science, I returned with science. You said religion is bad, but God is indeed good. Tell me, Eric, what exactly is your point trying to reach? You only have yourself for an authority. Shame, Eric.

    Are you calling homosexuality a disorder? Eric, that’s stupid.

  132. Eric,

    This ‘pastor-only’ garbage is garbage and tiring. First, I cannot speak for WB, but as for myself, I have done the research. Secondly, I cannot speak for WB, but I am under the pastor for biblical authority. Eric, you hatred of God is apparent with this line of reasoning. Further, it is a little silly and childish.

    You idea of different translations, well, Eric, garbage again. First, a variety of translations is needed to get a better sense. Second, I am able to read the Greek. Again, you garbage are talking points that you have inherited from others who are rebellious against God. One of your problems, if not the main problem, is your pride. You believe that you know everything, but Eric, you fail at this level of knowledge. Who cares who King James is? You as well as I do that he was a king of England, the first with the name and the fourth with that name from Scotland. He authorized a new bible translation (although it was not really ‘new’) as a way to stop the Calvinists and their Geneva Bible. Eric, are you ignorant of this as well? And Eric, are you unaware of the original language of the bible? Eric, why do I need to educate you on these things? Have you not yet learned to google?

    Tell me, Eric, if a man is born with a severe pre-disposition to violence, do we attempt to change it? The Fact the matter is, is that God calls us from our sinful nature to live for Him, and when He does this, he expects us to drop the way ‘we were born.’ That is fact, Eric. Anything else is a lie, and liars have a place reserved for them in darkness.

    Yes, all gays are going to hell. All sinners are going to hell. We are called to confess our sins and further, to rid our selves of them.

    Faith and living a good live does not equal heaven. Read the book of James.

    Eric, first, grow up.

  133. Eric, that is more of a post than a comment. I will decide later to approve it or not. I have asked that comments be kept somewhat short.

  134. Oh Dear Polycarp tsk tsk tsk! The fact that you are calling my ideas garbage and calling them stupid shows that I am getting under your skin. It also makes me laugh. I have not once called your ideas stupid, although they are ignorant. You also go on to tell me where my ideas come from, claiming that I got it from those who are rebellious. Well actually you would be incorrect about that buddy. My ideas come from research done on my own, I’ve studied at seminary. Unlike you I don’t believe ANYTHING people tell me without looking it up and researching on my own.

    Eric, actually, you are not under my skin. I just call them as I see them. Personally, I have encountered much better debaters than you on this issue, including many of dearest friends. Your assumptions are both ignorant and ill-founded. You seem to project a great deal of yourself into others. Where as you claim you do your own ‘research’ and would swear up and down that I do not, I would say that the opposite is most likely true. I would imagine, Eric, that you have a great deal of time to do your research, but instead you devote much of it to stroking your ego by defending your ‘learning’ on blogs such as this.

    Yours comes from saying what you’ve heard. Also you go on to tell me that I think I know everything, which I also never stated. On the other hand it is apparent that you are the one who thinks you know everything because you never respond to the arguments that people give you, you only repeat the exact same thing that you have been saying which is the bible says it was wrong. I’ve presented you real material, which most of it, your PASTOR will AGREE. As I said before the bible says several things in the old testament that were wiped out in the new testament buddy. Example being, The bible says you should kill people who work on Saturdays. “Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.” Ex 35:2. You’ll probably make up an excuse as to why this doesn’t count anymore but a lot of the new testament changed some of the beliefs in the old testament. Also for the record, Jesus was never quoted in the gospels as saying anything that directly condemns homosexuals. Repeat that over and over again until you understand it. Better yet, ask your pastor he will AGREE!

    Eric, first, you do not know me. Now, we can debate where I have received my understanding of Scriptures and thus the morality derived from them, but that would like talking to a wall. You have your own understanding of what you think I do and who you think I am. This is moronic arrogance. Your ‘learning’ is evident through your inability to hold a steady and mature conversation, not to mention your typing ability. You have presented nothing to anyone, expect for your ‘thoughts’, and I can promise you, my pastor would not agree with your ‘own understanding.’

    Eric, again, with the projection. The time that spend insulting either myself or those that have responded to you cements the fact that your maturity level has barely reach that of puberty. First, we know that Christ did not mention homosexuality in the Gospels. Yes, that is evident; however, He did not mention a lot of things concerning the Church. He established the Church and made it clear that His Apostles would ‘flesh’ it out, you might say. Further, He promised us the Spirit of Truth to guide into all Truth. Now, Eric, if you understood this in the least bit, you would understand that the mission of Christ during those years was not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill the Law, in that He was to become the lasting sacrifice for humanity, in that those that partake of Him would inherit eternal life. He established His Church not on a hedonistic morality, but on the morality of the Law. Yes, we cannot dishonor the Sabbath, but Christ is now our Rest. Eric, surely, an astute student such yourself need not to have that explained to him, right?

    As far as the translations and different meanings. You saying who cares who King James is shows me your ignorance. For the record King James, the person who authorized the translation lived an ungodly life of sexual immorality. In fact, Many preachers and teachers prefer the KJV and use it, because that’s what their congregations prefer and use, but they do not BELIEVE it to be the INFALLIBLE words of God. They are taught in college to USE, PREFER, and RECOMMEND the KJV, but they are NOT taught to BELIEVE it. Most “Christian colleges” teach that the King James Bible IS ONLY A TRANSLATION, and that NO TRANSLATION IS INFALLIBLE. Since your pastor probably went to bible college, ask him about that one also! TRANSLATIONS are NOT the infallible word of God!!!!

    Eric, do you realize that most people do not use the King James Version of the bible? Do you further realize that I have used other translations, including my own, in my own writings and studies on this blog? Eric, do you know that this blog, like many wordpress blogs, have search functions, and usually have more than just one page? Tell me, Eric, why not ‘study’ this blog before you open your mouth and insert your foot?

    King James ‘authorized’ a new translation, but in the end, it was neither the first English translation nor the last. He did it for political reasons, Eric. Surely you know that. Yes, we know of his suspected immorality, and his suspected homosexuality. If you look at the bible sales charts, you will note that the KJV is not that much in use, and as a matter of fact, only three states have the KJV as the top of their charts. You foolish notion of the KJV as still in use by ‘many pastors’ is quite wrong and laughable. Where do you live, Eric? 1950’s Appalachia? Only extreme fundamentalist bible colleges teach the use of the KJV as the ‘infallible word of God,’ and usually, if you are KJVO then you will not attend bible colleges. Eric, you are arguing a point which is a waste of time with me.

    As far as your argument about a child being born with a severe pre-disposition to violence, that doesn’t apply to what we’re speaking about. NO ONE is BORN with a pre-disposition to violence. Everyone knows that this is a learned behavior, whether it be from the child watching television or getting it from people he has been influenced by. Being BORN with a disorder is the same as being BORN GAY. Its the way they were BORN and can’t be changed. A child who is born with down syndrome can’t change how they are, the same is for a child that is born GAY. Something inside of them makes them this way. Take twins for example. One can be gay and one can be straight. They can be raised the exact same way with the exact same influences and turn out different. It’s because homosexuality isn’t a learned thing or brought out through the person’s environment. It is how a person is born! You still haven’t explained how a 5 year old girl starts saying she likes women when she doesn’t even know what “gay” is. She doesn’t even know the word to describe her feelings and hasn’t had any outside influences.

    Eric, being gay is a ‘learned behavior’. Violence is a learned behavior. Sin is a learned behavior. Whether it is learned or natural, God still calls us from these things. Again, you associated being gay with have a mental disorder? Eric, that’s a bit backwards, don’t you think? What’s next, being born black is curable?

    Also, The American Psychological Association agrees that human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to ACT on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed. The reality is that homosexuality is not able to be changed, not even by therapy. It is how a person was born, and although people claim that they have changed by going to certain counseling groups, those same people have been reported coming back and telling people that they still have the same feelings. Thats because even if a gay person chooses to stop having sex with people of the same sex this doesn’t mean that they’re not gay.Just the same for straight people. If they choose to abstain from sex then this doesn’t mean they are not straight. Being gay is how a person was born and has nothing to do with the physical act of sex so just because a person stops having relations doesn’t mean that this stops them from being a certain sexual orientation. You CAN NOT TREAT HOMOSEXUALITY. It’s not an illness, just how a person was born.

    Actually, current APA policy opposes any counseling that treats homosexuality as a mental illness but does not explicitly denounce reparative therapy
    http://www.edgephiladelphia.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=features&sc3=category_link&id=55737&pg=2
    And regarding the APA, who cares? Why would allow a man-made organization to dictate biblical morality? Eric, you can argue from the APA standpoint, but I do not put much stock in what they say, considering they change their ‘facts’.

    To put it in SIMPLE TERMS, my scientist friend said it great! Sexuality is about as much a “choice” as handedness is. As recently as the last century, teachers would tie a child’s left hand in a vain attempt to make them right-handed. While a left-handed person can force himself to write right-handed, just as a gay person can force himself to live a heterosexual lifestyle, that doesn’t make the leftie a rightie or the gay man straight. Some people (the ambidextrous or the bisexual) would find it relatively easy to move from one behavior to the other, but for most of us, changing our sexuality would be as impossible as learning to write as precisely or throw a ball as accurately with our non-dominant hand as with our dominant hand. Science doesn’t have “proof” as to what causes left-handedness, either. Like sexuality, it is probably a combination of genetics and in utero environmental factors, reinforced in early childhood by societal norms. But it’s clear that both are most likely fixed at birth. Sexuality is not strictly a genetic trait, like skin color or eye color, but it is certainly not a conscious choice people make.

    Yes, but God said that it was a sin, and against the natural use, to be gay. That pretty well settles it. Again, science once said that minorities are inferior to whites. Would you have agreed with that statement simply because it came from a scientist?

    In closing, you told me to “GROW UP”. As I said before, it is apparent that I got under your skin. You know nothing about me. I’m actually a well rounded adult with who has studied everything from religion and psychology to science. Your problem is that you can’t debate the FACTS and you haven’t argued any of my POINTS. You just keep repeating what you learned. You keep saying you’ve done research but from your reply’s I can tell that you are saying what you heard your pastor say or what you’ve read on whyhomosexualityiswrong.com. I too believe in the word of God. Only difference is I believe in the correct word of God, not these current translations. I also believe in Romans 10:9-10.If you believe in God and Christianity and the New Testament then you have to take it for what it is. The writings of the New Testament do not deal explicitly with the subject of homosexuality. Just like the new testament changed a lot of things. A person is saved once they confess with their mouth, whether they be straight or gay. Also salvation and eternal life is a gift from God and God doesn’t take back his gifts. So all in all polycarp you need to GROW UP and research a little more. I have REAL debates with theologians often and they would tear you up one. One thing I do know about you modern day christains is that you say the bible this and that but don’t know the real history behind the word of God. Although I don’t believe in the Islamic faith, I know some Muslims that would tear you beliefs to shreds because they study what they believe and know the ends and outs of it. Polycarp, people like you REGURGITATE a passage of the bible without knowing the truth at all. Example being, “who cares who King James is? That is a big part of the history of the Bible. Also, you were wrong about the translation of the Word of God.

    Eric, I would not call you well rounded, or balanced, and I am unsure as to your status as an adult. The only answers that you will accept are those which agree with you. Trust me on this, you will not find those here. I present biblical facts. You present man-made notions.

    You state that you believe in Romans? Yet you would dismiss Paul’s admonitions against homosexuality? Further, the passage that you quote goes further than just a confession with one’s mouth. But such a highly individual as yourself must know that. Surely you have connected that to Joel 2.28-32. And you also not discovered what ‘righteousness’ is? That is a life lived for God, leaving those sins behind, and for some that means homosexuality.
    Eric, debates on Yahoo! Chatrooms do not count.

    I am sure, Eric, that you believe Minnie Mouse could just break me down. Eric, to those that are defiled, all things are defiled. You have no clue who God is, what Christianity it, or what maturity actually is. You realize, that much of what you have assumed about me is rather false. (Your assumption that I am KJVO – laughable and moronic, Eric.)

    And Eric, King James is a big part of the English bible, but only in the minds of KJVO’s. Most sane people who are theologically correct when it comes to the KJVO issue will first tell you that Tyndale’s importance to the English Bible is greater by far than that of a simply king who authorized a committee for political reasons.

    WBMOORE this was in response to you also. Only thing I have to say to you is in reference to me saying a group is going to hell. You proved my point by saying that the entire world has to answer to God. My point was that you can’t single a group out. Since you quoted Romans then go to Rom 10:9-10. If you confess that God raised Jesus from the dead you are saved and this is the new Testament.Those who are gay can be saved!

    Eric, if WB chooses to respond, that is fine, but for me, you have some serious studying to do in the bible. Now, I am sure you just about know it all, but Eric, the more you type, the more it is evident that you know nothing about the bible, the morality contained therein, the salvation that it promises, of God and Christ.
    Eric, you need God.

  135. that wasnt clear either. I just meant the parents at some point make the choice to treat them as a boy or girl. And I think at some point this must be done. I’m not sure how the children view themselves. I think all parents raise boys as boys or giirls as girls, so parental influence is unavoidable. Any thoughts?

  136. Emf, first, let me say that this is an important question that I have wrestled with for some time now. It is best to ask these questions for us to come to an answer.

    I believe that the child must be allowed to develop, to show you what is not easily seen, for it’s sexuality. How many tragedies have we seen because of the bad choices of parents and the forced sexuality on these individuals by society?

    Let’s continue to talk about it while I develop my own understanding.

  137. He claimed to be God:
    Jesus claimed He was ‘I AM” in Jn 8:58, a name God claimed for Himself in Exodus 3:14.
    When people are in God’s presence, they fall down – see Ezekiel 1:28.
    This is what happened when the evil spirits saw Jesus, in Mark 3:11.
    It is also what happened when they went to arrest Jesus in John 18:6 (the “he” is not in the original text).

    John said Jesus was God in John 1:1-18.

    So yes, Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, the Lord, was with God in the beginning because He IS God. There IS only one God, yet the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God – three persons in one God.

    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/07/19/what-makes-us-think-jesus-is-god/
    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/more-on-whether-jesus-christ-is-god/
    http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/is-christ-god/

  138. Kristin, you sure seem to have a lot of anger built up.

    Radicals? Really?

    There was no condescension in the reply to you. I encourage disagreement, Kristan, but I prefer to have it backed up with evidence, which is what I asked for. You have confused judging a person with judging an action.

    Last post? Which one, this one or the scripture that you quoted?

    Kristin, we are commanded not to judge the person, but further, we are commanded to speak out against sin, which is what I believe homosexuality is. It is not ‘the’ sin, but it is sin. Is that to say that homosexuals are evil people? Or even ‘bad’ people? No. But, Christ spoke out against sin and commanded His Church to do the same. Paul spoke out against it, but like our Lord, never condemned the individual.

    It is not morally wrong to speak out against sin. We are commanded to do so. You do remember the Lord driving out the money changers from the Temple, right? Or Paul telling congregations to flee sins, and listing those sins? To judge the individual is to deny the Grace of God in the lives of people; yet to deny sin is to cause people to forget that they need Christ.

    Would you have us silent on sin? If so, that is more immoral than any act between two consenting adults.

  139. Dani – welcome to the discussion. First, spelling and reading comprehension are two different things. I type fast, and rely heavily upon Word – which has been fatal to my once stellar spelling. Oh well. The Truth is not deterred if I place an ‘a’ instead of an ‘o’.

    So, is cannibalism okay? You do realize, of course, that in proclaiming the animal kingdom as an example, you then leave us open to our own abhorrent behavior? While attempting to establish yourself, you have failed, and miserably, if I might add. Simply because a behavior is document in animals and humans does not make it natural nor should we accept it. Rape has been documented in both animals and humans, and yet we classify it as criminal. Your argument is too weak to be considered a straw-man.

    ‘I have further see…’ Well, maybe before you critique my spelling, you should make sure you are perfect yourself, eh? Or, perhaps we should allow for human error here and actually tackle the subject at hand? I’m for the latter.

    Actually, I am unaware of having called anyone stupid, just their ideas. Do you really think calling homosexuality a disorder a wise course of action? The same goes with ‘moronic arrogance.’ This is not the person but the argument. Shame on you for thinking anything else.

    Can you tell me where Christ said to be kind to everyone? You do remember the Temple, right? You do remember when Paul called the Galatians foolish, right? And when he turned people over to Satan? You realize that the Truth hurts, don’t you? That many hated the Apostles for telling them the truth, and further, that homosexuality is indeed a sin. Your pacifistic view of Christ and the Gospel speaks volumes of why too many people allow sin to reign, and to justified. Christ didn’t come to play nice with everyone, Dani, but to bear our sins – including homosexuality – to the cross, and having nailed them to a tree, provide for us a way to live without them.

    This notion of a hippy-Jesus is not biblical, nor was it followed by His apostles. I’ll be praying that you stick around, Dani.

  140. Actually, Amanda, it is the place of people to condemn sin, and to instruct others as to what sin is. That is real Christianity, not some misguided notion of ‘don’t judge and don’t hurt anyone’s feelings.’ Real Christianity calls people from sin to a new life in Christ. That is bible Christianity. That is the Christianity which I preach. This article was written well over a year ago, Amanda. There is no focus on homosexuality. Occasionally, some one will stumble upon this post and decide that it is their duty to lecture me about not judging others. The problem with that is that they usually do not believe the bible before or after that verse.

  141. To all Christians out there…

    guys, this is something that really troubles me and I would just please want to ask you all to not judge and be cruel to other people (any)..as stated before, I’ve been the victim of countless attacks on my image /looks although I’m as straight as an arrow!! Let me explain my situation:

    I become angry at God for creating me the way I look in the first place because of regular abuse…
    Abuse continues and my anger grows towards him inside…
    I start swearing at God, cursing him and even dispising Him and make an enemy out of him..
    God gets angry, probably at me but probably equally at the person that made the comment
    and all consequences that follow thereafter

    This is very serious and no one in that position can understand it! So please, think carefully
    what you are doing on a psychological level, as this is very serious!!!

  142. Amanda’s post is more than four years old but it bears a comment by a Christian who believes that it is our duty to recognize that the “judge not” quotation is often present out of context. To any reading this, let me suggest that a study of the verse’s context is important. Jesus was not issuing a blanket warning against judging. That, in itself, would be a contradiction of judgments against sin that He Himself made.

    His warning was against knee-jerk hypocritical judgments. Matthew 7:1 is followed by the words in verse 5. “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

    A hypocrite is someone who condemns something that he himself does. Jesus was not saying that all judgment is wrong but that hypocritical judgment is wrong. It would be wrong for me to condone sins that are similar (as I interpret it)– condemning adultery or fornication while participating in such deeds myself. We should try to repent of and clean out sins in our own life and to be cautious about the easy condemnation of others. But that is not to say we can say nothing whatsoever about the sins of homosexuality being wrong.

  143. No Larry, I have to agree to some extent. The fact of the matter is that if we judge someone,
    we are inadvertently saying that GOD had in fact, made a mistake or created something that
    is wrong or unacceptable and you know that can’t be the case as we are all created perfect in
    GOD’s own eyes i.e. in His own image we are created.The fact is unfortunately that nobody
    knows what causes homosexiality in both men and women and therefore to blindly attribute this
    to the devils work or demon possesion like some people often do without knowing any better is
    nothing more than a stone in the bush! I say it is wrong, because by principle it can never work
    reproductively and therefore a society of homosexials is doomed to extinction.

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